In the last month or so, I've submitted five $10 gold eagles to PCGS for crossover. Four were in NGC holders, one was in an ANACS holder. The ANACS coin crossed over, none of the four NGC coins crossed.
Well I feel vindicated. Over a decade ago an obnoxious tirekicker at a show I was setup at asked me “don’t you discount ANACS coins?” This was a super PQ lustrous wellstruck ANACS MS63 1917 Type1 SLQ. I told him there is no reason I should especially if I agree with the grade. Later in the show it sold to a guy who wanted it for his bd. I can recall his wife paying for it.
@dhikewhitney said:
Cross at any grade or if at same grade, which grades were they ?
I asked for them to cross at same grade. The four NGC coins that didn't cross were AU ($10 Liberty) and MS ($10 Indian). The ANACS coin that crossed was an XF $10 Liberty.
@Cougar1978 said:
Well I feel vindicated. Over a decade ago an obnoxious tirekicker at a show I was setup at asked me “don’t you discount ANACS coins?” This was a super PQ lustrous wellstruck ANACS MS63 1917 Type1 SLQ. I told him there is no reason I should especially if I agree with the grade. Later in the show it sold to a guy who wanted it for his bd. I can recall his wife paying for it.
Do you feel vindicated, simply because someone posted that their ANACS coin crossed to a PCGS holder or for some other reason?
Regardless, it sounds like that “obnoxious tirekicker” really got to you. After all, it was over a decade ago. And it’s not like a lot of other buyers wouldn’t wonder if (or expect that) even a nice ANACS coin would be discounted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t discount ANACS coins because of the holder especially if It’s PQ. If anybody thinks I should lol - go take it up with ANACS! Furthermore ANACS, ICG, PCGs, NGC are the 4 TPG’s recognized by eBay.
However I may discount coins in any TPG holder if I have room cost wise as a result of negotiation, desire to move that piece for cash flow. It’s the coin not the holder for me not some generalization somebody makes about a particular TPG.
From a biz point of view I do prefer PCGS and submit to PCGS not just for that reason but others like their inventory mgt app, CF, etc. I sometimes do acquire mega deals where I may get non Pcgs / NGC material and any decision to cross is based on cost materiality of the item plus TPG expense, and proprietary business basics.
As far as the tirekicker at this point no big deal. He did not even make a counter offer. Mainly I just wonder who heck the guy was it’s like he was trying intimidate - like if some well known dealer or some star in numismatics. However that was decades ago. Now I might probe what is his counter offer.
So you acknowledge a market preference and your own preference for PCGS slabs. Seems that ANACS in fact does have an associated discount per the market! 😉
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
My TPG preference (PCGS) and how I handle inventory price negotiation are 2 different things. Beyond that one guy I have never had anyone pull that. In retrospect I might query where he would be on price and move it if positive margin then sell (especially if had it awhile).
As stated above if my coins discounted its due to cost favorability or what’s negotiated in a deal. I am the owner and the ANACS coins I have are less that $150 MV. On a $5000 coin I would want cross PCGS but would prob write min grade on form.
Not long ago I bought a ANACS MS70 Mexico Silver bullion Libertad in the yellow holder thought it really looked nice. Did well with it as it sold quickly and at MS70 money.
I do occasionally make a tally of how many coins by TPG on ebay plus CAC. This gives me a big picture.
I think some of the NGC to PCGS crossover number increases may have something to do with a billionaire who is cornering the PCGS set registry with all of the top coins and sets his home team can manage to achieve. You have to crossover (or crack out for PCGS grading and True Views) a lot of excellent NGC slabbed coins to accomplish that task.
I just got some cross results back today. Sent the stuff Express. Received on 9/12. Grades came back today and order was shipped today.
ANACS 64 —> PCGS 64
I expected this. It’s a cherrypicked variety. All good.
NGC 67FB —> PCGS 65FB
I expected a drop but not a full two points. It’s a cherrypicked variety so I will be okay but don’t think I will make much on it. Ugh.
NGC 68 —> PCGS 67+
I kinda knew it might go lower but of course hoped otherwise. This is still acceptable and a coin I might keep since it is a toner. It all depends on how nice the True View is. I’ll still look for a better toned example. If I were to sell this, I would confess to paying too much. Meh, can’t win them all.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
@Goldminers said:
I think some of the NGC to PCGS crossover number increases may have something to do with a billionaire who is cornering the PCGS set registry with all of the top coins and sets his home team can manage to achieve. You have to crossover (or crack out for PCGS grading and True Views) a lot of excellent NGC slabbed coins to accomplish that task.
What “NGC to PCGS crossover number increases” are you referring to? I haven’t heard of any such increases of significance (despite one poster to this thread having mentioned his own excellent results).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Goldminers said:
I think some of the NGC to PCGS crossover number increases may have something to do with a billionaire who is cornering the PCGS set registry with all of the top coins and sets his home team can manage to achieve. You have to crossover (or crack out for PCGS grading and True Views) a lot of excellent NGC slabbed coins to accomplish that task.
What “NGC to PCGS crossover number increases” are you referring to? I haven’t heard of any such increases of significance (despite one poster to this thread having mentioned his own excellent results).
I was just looking at the stat posted in this thread on the first page with this data mentioned to be "Presumably 8/25-9/24 or something similar. Possibly they only update at month-end and it is for August"
This is now posted today Oct 5th for the most recent month of Sept data +/-.
This is a significant increase at least recently and success rate is getting tougher.
@Goldminers said:
I think some of the NGC to PCGS crossover number increases may have something to do with a billionaire who is cornering the PCGS set registry with all of the top coins and sets his home team can manage to achieve. You have to crossover (or crack out for PCGS grading and True Views) a lot of excellent NGC slabbed coins to accomplish that task.
What “NGC to PCGS crossover number increases” are you referring to? I haven’t heard of any such increases of significance (despite one poster to this thread having mentioned his own excellent results).
I was just looking at the stat posted in this thread on the first page with this data mentioned to be "Presumably 8/25-9/24 or something similar. Possibly they only update at month-end and it is for August"
This is now posted today Oct 5th for the most recent month of Sept data +/-.
This is a significant increase at least recently and success rate is getting tougher.
I wouldn’t draw any conclusions, based on statistics from just one or two months. But if you wish to do so, the most recent numbers appear to show a lower crossover rate, not a higher one, from the previous report.
Also, the “billionaire” you referred to has been buying coins for more than the past few months. So there’s no reason to think that his activities have skewed recent crossover numbers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
One, about 10 years ago. It upgraded from 64FB to 65FB. It was a Cherrypicked 1939-D/D Merc that turned out to be Top Pop! Made mad money on that one.
I have 5 Morgan's in segs holders. Most nothing special all 63's and a 65. Their grades. Only one I would consider for a crossover, a 1898-O dmpl that graded a 63.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
@Goldminers said:
I think some of the NGC to PCGS crossover number increases may have something to do with a billionaire who is cornering the PCGS set registry with all of the top coins and sets his home team can manage to achieve. You have to crossover (or crack out for PCGS grading and True Views) a lot of excellent NGC slabbed coins to accomplish that task.
What “NGC to PCGS crossover number increases” are you referring to? I haven’t heard of any such increases of significance (despite one poster to this thread having mentioned his own excellent results).
I was just looking at the stat posted in this thread on the first page with this data mentioned to be "Presumably 8/25-9/24 or something similar. Possibly they only update at month-end and it is for August"
This is now posted today Oct 5th for the most recent month of Sept data +/-.
This is a significant increase at least recently and success rate is getting tougher.
I wouldn’t draw any conclusions, based on statistics from just one or two months. But if you wish to do so, the most recent numbers appear to show a lower crossover rate, not a higher one, from the previous report.
Also, the “billionaire” you referred to has been buying coins for more than the past few months. So there’s no reason to think that his activities have skewed recent crossover numbers.
Mark, I am pretty sure when I commented "the success rate is getting tougher", that means the same thing as "a lower crossover rate". I thought it was helpful to the overall discussion in the thread to note the number of crossover attempts went up.
I also believe many NGC coins available for sale have been previously submitted to PCGS by others. If they don't cross, some get sold to the next collector, who without that past information will try to cross it again. Success rate can drop over time if more novice collectors are involved.
@keyman64 said:
I just got some cross results back today. Sent the stuff Express. Received on 9/12. Grades came back today and order was shipped today.
ANACS 64 —> PCGS 64
I expected this. It’s a cherrypicked variety. All good.
NGC 67FB —> PCGS 65FB
I expected a drop but not a full two points. It’s a cherrypicked variety so I will be okay but don’t think I will make much on it. Ugh.
NGC 68 —> PCGS 67+
I kinda knew it might go lower but of course hoped otherwise. This is still acceptable and a coin I might keep since it is a toner. It all depends on how nice the True View is. I’ll still look for a better toned example. If I were to sell this, I would confess to paying too much. Meh, can’t win them all.
@Goldminers said:
I think some of the NGC to PCGS crossover number increases may have something to do with a billionaire who is cornering the PCGS set registry with all of the top coins and sets his home team can manage to achieve. You have to crossover (or crack out for PCGS grading and True Views) a lot of excellent NGC slabbed coins to accomplish that task.
What “NGC to PCGS crossover number increases” are you referring to? I haven’t heard of any such increases of significance (despite one poster to this thread having mentioned his own excellent results).
I was just looking at the stat posted in this thread on the first page with this data mentioned to be "Presumably 8/25-9/24 or something similar. Possibly they only update at month-end and it is for August"
This is now posted today Oct 5th for the most recent month of Sept data +/-.
This is a significant increase at least recently and success rate is getting tougher.
I wouldn’t draw any conclusions, based on statistics from just one or two months. But if you wish to do so, the most recent numbers appear to show a lower crossover rate, not a higher one, from the previous report.
Also, the “billionaire” you referred to has been buying coins for more than the past few months. So there’s no reason to think that his activities have skewed recent crossover numbers.
Mark, I am pretty sure when I commented "the success rate is getting tougher", that means the same thing as "a lower crossover rate". I thought it was helpful to the overall discussion in the thread to note the number of crossover attempts went up.
I also believe many NGC coins available for sale have been previously submitted to PCGS by others. If they don't cross, some get sold to the next collector, who without that past information will try to cross it again. Success rate can drop over time if more novice collectors are involved.
Sorry, apparently, I misunderstood your initial comment: “I think some of the NGC to PCGS crossover number increases may have something to do with a billionaire …”.
I took “crossover number increases” to mean crossover successes. Thank you for letting me know.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
‘’This is now posted today Oct 5th for the most recent month of Sept data +/-.’’
Goldminers: I suspect the 5,000 extra coins for the most recent period simply relate to the “$10 crossover special” that just took place. Many of those coins submitted might have been the “bottom of the barrel” that were submitted once again at the small fee of $10/coin knowing they would likely not cross (which they did not). So, only about 1/4 of “the dreck” (and some nice coins) crossed (including at the lower grades submitters agreed to accept, and a tiny, tiny % might have even gone up a bit in grade). Totally as to be expected IMHO.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
"Also, the “billionaire” you referred to has been buying coins for more than the past few months. So there’s no reason to think that his activities have skewed recent crossover numbers."
I presume Mr. Hanson is the billionaire discussed, but I believe it is quite unreasonable to think he would be playing the crossover game, especially without evidence.
Why would he (billionaire) even play high value cross game considering what he would spend on it as amount would more than stock one’s table at a show? Think about it. That would buy high end boat for him or swanky property?
@vplite99 said:
"Also, the “billionaire” you referred to has been buying coins for more than the past few months. So there’s no reason to think that his activities have skewed recent crossover numbers."
I presume Mr. Hanson is the billionaire discussed, but I believe it is quite unreasonable to think he would be playing the crossover game, especially without evidence.
Considering that Mr. Hanson is heavily involved in the PCGS set registry, I don’t think it was unreasonable to speculate that there have been attempted crossovers on his behalf.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Cougar1978 said:
Why would he (billionaire) even play high value cross game considering what he would spend on it as amount would more than stock one’s table at a show? Think about it. That would buy high end boat for him or swanky property?
Because when you own that much money, crossover fees are popcorn.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Cougar1978 said:
Why would he (billionaire) even play high value cross game considering what he would spend on it as amount would more than stock one’s table at a show? Think about it. That would buy high end boat for him or swanky property?
Because when you own that much money, crossover fees are popcorn.
In addition to that, as already mentioned, because he's heavily involved in the PCGS set registry.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
In the last month or so, I've submitted five $10 gold eagles to PCGS for crossover. Four were in NGC holders, one was in an ANACS holder. The ANACS coin crossed over, none of the four NGC coins crossed.
Cross at any grade or if at same grade, which grades were they ?
Well I feel vindicated. Over a decade ago an obnoxious tirekicker at a show I was setup at asked me “don’t you discount ANACS coins?” This was a super PQ lustrous wellstruck ANACS MS63 1917 Type1 SLQ. I told him there is no reason I should especially if I agree with the grade. Later in the show it sold to a guy who wanted it for his bd. I can recall his wife paying for it.
I asked for them to cross at same grade. The four NGC coins that didn't cross were AU ($10 Liberty) and MS ($10 Indian). The ANACS coin that crossed was an XF $10 Liberty.
Do you feel vindicated, simply because someone posted that their ANACS coin crossed to a PCGS holder or for some other reason?
Regardless, it sounds like that “obnoxious tirekicker” really got to you. After all, it was over a decade ago. And it’s not like a lot of other buyers wouldn’t wonder if (or expect that) even a nice ANACS coin would be discounted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t discount ANACS coins because of the holder especially if It’s PQ. If anybody thinks I should lol - go take it up with ANACS! Furthermore ANACS, ICG, PCGs, NGC are the 4 TPG’s recognized by eBay.
However I may discount coins in any TPG holder if I have room cost wise as a result of negotiation, desire to move that piece for cash flow. It’s the coin not the holder for me not some generalization somebody makes about a particular TPG.
From a biz point of view I do prefer PCGS and submit to PCGS not just for that reason but others like their inventory mgt app, CF, etc. I sometimes do acquire mega deals where I may get non Pcgs / NGC material and any decision to cross is based on cost materiality of the item plus TPG expense, and proprietary business basics.
As far as the tirekicker at this point no big deal. He did not even make a counter offer. Mainly I just wonder who heck the guy was it’s like he was trying intimidate - like if some well known dealer or some star in numismatics. However that was decades ago. Now I might probe what is his counter offer.
So you acknowledge a market preference and your own preference for PCGS slabs. Seems that ANACS in fact does have an associated discount per the market! 😉
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
My TPG preference (PCGS) and how I handle inventory price negotiation are 2 different things. Beyond that one guy I have never had anyone pull that. In retrospect I might query where he would be on price and move it if positive margin then sell (especially if had it awhile).
As stated above if my coins discounted its due to cost favorability or what’s negotiated in a deal. I am the owner and the ANACS coins I have are less that $150 MV. On a $5000 coin I would want cross PCGS but would prob write min grade on form.
Not long ago I bought a ANACS MS70 Mexico Silver bullion Libertad in the yellow holder thought it really looked nice. Did well with it as it sold quickly and at MS70 money.
I do occasionally make a tally of how many coins by TPG on ebay plus CAC. This gives me a big picture.
Has anybody tried to cross a segs to pcgs?
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
One, about 10 years ago. It upgraded from 64FB to 65FB. It was a Cherrypicked 1939-D/D Merc that turned out to be Top Pop! Made mad money on that one.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
My experience so far as they always cross lower. I have coins with them now for crossover. When I get results I will share for this batch.
I think some of the NGC to PCGS crossover number increases may have something to do with a billionaire who is cornering the PCGS set registry with all of the top coins and sets his home team can manage to achieve. You have to crossover (or crack out for PCGS grading and True Views) a lot of excellent NGC slabbed coins to accomplish that task.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I just got some cross results back today. Sent the stuff Express. Received on 9/12. Grades came back today and order was shipped today.
ANACS 64 —> PCGS 64
I expected this. It’s a cherrypicked variety. All good.
NGC 67FB —> PCGS 65FB
I expected a drop but not a full two points. It’s a cherrypicked variety so I will be okay but don’t think I will make much on it. Ugh.
NGC 68 —> PCGS 67+
I kinda knew it might go lower but of course hoped otherwise. This is still acceptable and a coin I might keep since it is a toner. It all depends on how nice the True View is. I’ll still look for a better toned example. If I were to sell this, I would confess to paying too much. Meh, can’t win them all.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
What “NGC to PCGS crossover number increases” are you referring to? I haven’t heard of any such increases of significance (despite one poster to this thread having mentioned his own excellent results).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was just looking at the stat posted in this thread on the first page with this data mentioned to be "Presumably 8/25-9/24 or something similar. Possibly they only update at month-end and it is for August"
This is now posted today Oct 5th for the most recent month of Sept data +/-.
This is a significant increase at least recently and success rate is getting tougher.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I wouldn’t draw any conclusions, based on statistics from just one or two months. But if you wish to do so, the most recent numbers appear to show a lower crossover rate, not a higher one, from the previous report.
Also, the “billionaire” you referred to has been buying coins for more than the past few months. So there’s no reason to think that his activities have skewed recent crossover numbers.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have 5 Morgan's in segs holders. Most nothing special all 63's and a 65. Their grades. Only one I would consider for a crossover, a 1898-O dmpl that graded a 63.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
Mark, I am pretty sure when I commented "the success rate is getting tougher", that means the same thing as "a lower crossover rate". I thought it was helpful to the overall discussion in the thread to note the number of crossover attempts went up.
I also believe many NGC coins available for sale have been previously submitted to PCGS by others. If they don't cross, some get sold to the next collector, who without that past information will try to cross it again. Success rate can drop over time if more novice collectors are involved.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Interesting thanks for sharing.
Sorry, apparently, I misunderstood your initial comment: “I think some of the NGC to PCGS crossover number increases may have something to do with a billionaire …”.
I took “crossover number increases” to mean crossover successes. Thank you for letting me know.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
‘’This is now posted today Oct 5th for the most recent month of Sept data +/-.’’
Goldminers: I suspect the 5,000 extra coins for the most recent period simply relate to the “$10 crossover special” that just took place. Many of those coins submitted might have been the “bottom of the barrel” that were submitted once again at the small fee of $10/coin knowing they would likely not cross (which they did not). So, only about 1/4 of “the dreck” (and some nice coins) crossed (including at the lower grades submitters agreed to accept, and a tiny, tiny % might have even gone up a bit in grade). Totally as to be expected IMHO.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
"Also, the “billionaire” you referred to has been buying coins for more than the past few months. So there’s no reason to think that his activities have skewed recent crossover numbers."
I presume Mr. Hanson is the billionaire discussed, but I believe it is quite unreasonable to think he would be playing the crossover game, especially without evidence.
Why would he (billionaire) even play high value cross game considering what he would spend on it as amount would more than stock one’s table at a show? Think about it. That would buy high end boat for him or swanky property?
Considering that Mr. Hanson is heavily involved in the PCGS set registry, I don’t think it was unreasonable to speculate that there have been attempted crossovers on his behalf.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Because when you own that much money, crossover fees are popcorn.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
In addition to that, as already mentioned, because he's heavily involved in the PCGS set registry.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I wonder what the success rate of crossovers is for CAC coins.