Doubling type?
ducmir
Posts: 18 ✭✭
Hello All!
I came across this coin, and I'm wondering if anyone can tell me what type of doubling is evident on the right side of the coin below? IE, variety collectable or not? Shift is mostly east, slightly north, but only along the outer right-edge of the wreath and part of the ribbon, not the interior at all.
I've found a lot of online resources (Wexler, Ken Potter, etc) describing many different types of collectable and non-collectable doubling, but I'm still at a loss for identifying this one. Thanks in advance!
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What year is the coin?
@ducmir Maybe you can talk through which types you have and haven't ruled out, and why?
My analysis...
On the shield, the doubling is inconsistent, only only on upper-right corner. It blends into the primary foreground as it extends downward. Appears to be a very small area at the top-right-most corner, where there is a third level/layer (trippling?).
On the wreath, the doubling appears to match the design contour and height, at a very specific distance relative to the angle of the doubled edge, and does not appear to be a flat shelf. On some leaves, it blends into the adjacent design. It is not a consistent distance from the edge of the design, but rather appears to be its own distinct impression at slightly different position.
In the arrows and ribbon at the bottom-right, it continues to follow the pattern of being a step away from the primary design, but to a much lesser degree than on the wreath. On the long ribbon, it does appear to continue into the design, but its not completely clear if this is the case. If so, this is the only area that exhibits this behavior.
Considering the fact that there is no evidence of doubling within the design, the doubled area would be one of the initial hub impressions. Subsequent impressions would completely 'overwrite' details of the initial impression, leaving only the portion of the initial impression that fell outside of the subsequent impression(s) remaining.
It looks to me like either a class 3 (hub has a slightly different design) or more likely a class 4 (initial hubbing is the doubled area, subsequent hubbing is offset in the south-west direction).
Thoughts?
I think you are overthinking.
There is one form of doubling that exhibits a flat, shelf-like secondary image with no notching. That form of doubling that is far more common than all of the types that you mention.
Your coin has machine doubling. In other words, it is damaged, with no numismatic premium.
I don't think it is accurate to refer to machine doubling as "damaged". Damage general refers to things done after striking. Machine doubling occurs at striking.
Machine doubling occurs on the upward stroke of the die. Striking happens on the downward stroke. That means that machine doubling occurs after striking. Infinitesimally after, but still after.
A quick internet search turns up several websites stating that machine doubling occurs during the strike.
FWIW...
I'm still a novice, trying to understand the visual differences between machine and hub doubling. I have seen a lot of coins with machine doubling that is very consistent, surrounding much of the design of the coin. On others, the doubling is only on part of the coin, but is a clear flow out from the original design, raised only slightly with a hard edge, giving a flat shelf appearance like you mention. This coin just seemed different than any other machine doubling examples I'd seen.
I have some questions...
My interpretation of most machine doubling is that it is similar to what happens when you hit an anvil with a hammer. It doesn't just hit once, but jumps and then comes back down again. In machine doubling, the same thing takes place, with roughly an equivalent force the second time. The flat shelf-like appearance is due to the small portion of the initial impression that exists outside of the new impression, being flattened by the flat areas of the die surrounding the incised design. With the hard shelf edge being the natural consistent outward flow of the metal as it's flattened.
Is that accurate, at least for some types of machine doubling? And, is it categorized as mint "damage," since the subsequent impression distorts the true original, albeit 'infinitesimally after' as @jonathanb mentioned?
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do we get images of the obv?
The striking process should probably include everything through ejection, don't ya think?
I don't know anyone who considers MD to be "damage".
"Damage" is an old terminology that Alan Herbert liked to use, back in the days of rec.collecting.coins .
Just as @jonathanb described.
It's essentially the way we were taught at the time.
It is not a very friendly word, and not one I liked.
I prefer to use "shelf doubling".
I certainly don't think so, no. The nature of the coin is changed by the extreme pressure of the downward stroke of the dies. That's a physical change, a specific event in the history of the coin. Events that happen before the downward stroke can be verified as happening within the mint. Events that happen after the downward stroke could have happened anywhere.
How many times have we seen people who were... misguided... about the value of what they have? I prefer to be crystal clear, rather than being friendly about watching people lose their money.
I very much doubt that. Please provide pictures or links.
Machine doubling is caused when the die moves horizontally relative to the struck coin. Horizontal movement is always directional. If you see something surrounding the design, it isn't machine doubling.
(In theory, machine doubling could be the result of a die twisting relative to the coin, rather than shifting in a single direction. The shelf would still be in a single direction relative to the design elements, except that the direction would be clockwise/counterclockwise rather than linearly towards some clock position. I don't think I've ever seen machine doubling of that type, but it's at least conceivable.)
This image has been posted in many threads (from https://minterrors.org/what-is-machine-doubling-or-mechanical-damage/):
The discussion at https://www.error-ref.com/machine-doubling/ is also very good. Also https://doubleddie.com/144822.html
I guess you're misinterpreting the image, or maybe the image fails to fully capture the details of the coin. The only thing I see in the image is a very flat shelf.
It is more or less mandatory for machine doubling to appear at a specific direction, see comments above.
The machine doubling will appear in whatever areas are still in contact with the die when the die moves horizontally relative to the coin. In this case, the coin must have been very slightly tilted relative to the die, so that the right side of the reverse was still in contact while the left side was not. We're talking about very small distances here, more like microns than inches.
The degree of the machine doubling is determined by how far the coin moves sideways before it loses contact with the dies. Here is an example from this forum, found by searching for "extreme machine doubling": https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/796172/extreme-machine-doubling-1995-quarter. Another good thread: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1004355/is-there-any-machine-doubling-to-beat-this
FWIW, there are real doubled dies that show doubling on the wreath. Compare to for example 1889 1C DDR FS-802. Unlike your example, that variety does show notching along the edge of the wreath. It also shows full separation in the doubling of other elements such as the veins of the leaves within the wreath.
If you're still having a hard time visualizing, try making cookies at home using a cookie cutter. Instead of using the cookie cutter "correctly", shift it sideways while you are pulling it upwards but before it has fully exited the rolled-out dough. You will get a directional shelf on the edge of your cookie, just like machine doubling gives a directional shelf on the edge of design elements of the coin.
That is far too literal an interpretation of "strike". It's a process not a single act. And the hobby tends to treat things that happen in the "process of striking" as natural. These days, "damage" generally applies to things that happen after that price is complete.
Thank you very much @jonathanb for the thorough and valuable information. The really clears up my misconceptions of the process and visual indicators of machine doubling.
To be completely transparent, this coin is an 1884 that I came across on eBay, paired with an 1888. As far as I've been able to find, 1884 has no notable varieties with reverse hub doubling. I was hoping gather information here which would justify a purchase. Alas, no.
Here is the obverse:
I wanted to add, you are absolutely right. I realize now that what I've been seeing is probably die deterioration doubling, which seems to be extremely common among indian head cents. Below is a good example from an 1880 FS-101 S-1 (not mine unfortunately).
the reason i wanted to see the obverse, is to confirm if it was or was not one of the known ddrs with doubling on the wreath in that area.
it is most likely as the others have said but i'd sure like to see it in-hand, for my part as it is not very common in my experience.
If you are referring to the outlining on UNITED, that is called "Longacre doubling", and it is on the hub.
http://numissociety.com/content.php?135-Longacre-Doubling-A-discussion
http://varietyvista.com/25 What Are Die Varieties/False Forms of Doubling.htm
http://www.error-ref.com/longacre-s-doubling/
Well that explains why it's so common, thank you. I clearly have a lot to learn.
If you're truly interested, you can click the picture of the obverse in my earlier post, and it will take you to the ebay listing.
Hello All. I came across another form of doubling that I'm having trouble identifying. I thought it best to stay within this discussion, as it's on topic.
The coin below shows what I'm assuming is mechanical doubling (MD) around the edges of the wreath. However, I noticed some sort of doubling along the edge of two leaves within the design, not on the perimeter. Can MD also cause what is shown here? The same thing also appears to be taking place on the ribbon, but that is in an area I would expect to be impacted by MD, so this one seemed a bit ambiguous.
Safe to assume this is nothing notable then?
I haven't seen what's circled below on this area of any other indian reverses (granted I'm still relatively new to the field). So I'm hoping someone can clarify what it is? An abnormal but natural effect within the design, or, which form of machine doubling (push?) would cause this?