OK, who's the GOAT Head Coach in the NFL??
Maywood
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in Sports Talk
I've listed the Top 10 in win in no particular order, pick and explain your reasoning.
Marty Schottenheimer
Chuck Noll
Andy Reid
Curly Lambeau
Paul Brown
Dan Reeves
Bill Belichick
Tom Landry
Don Shula
George Halas
Maywood.
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Comments
For modern history I say Belichick
Super Bowls count in this discussion
This might be the ultimate "era comparison" especially when you consider that Vince Lombardi is so far down on the list of Head Coaches in terms of win totals. All that considered, though he only coached at Green Bay for nine seasons his teams won five championships(two consecutive and three consecutive) with a regular season winning percentage of 73.8% and going 9-1 in the playoffs.
Another aspect of Lombardi is his "tree" of former coaches/players to find NFL success. Strangely, he didn't spawn much success in that area as others like Paul Brown, Bill Parcells, Sid Gillman and Bill Walsh did. Another aspect to consider is innovation and effect on how the game would change as a result of a coach. Maybe the leader there would be Brown who initiated the use of "messenger guards" to run in plays as well as the first to popularize the use of film study. Another is Tom Landry who gave us motion that was almost unknown prior to his Dallas Cowboys.
Bill Belichick, aside from his championships and overall record, most impresses me because he never played football at the college or pro level. It's interesting today that others have chosen that route, gone from college right to some type of coaching and worked their way up to Head Coach in the NFL. I can't think of anyone to do that prior to Belichick.
Thomas Wade Landry
....
After writing this, I just realized that I am starting to write much longer comments sometimes. lol
I am well aware of the current narrative which is eating away at Belichick's legacy. Yes, he had Brady. But I feel like discussing the genius of Belichick, whether or not you consider him the GOAT, is fun and informative. He did a lot of things coaching-wise through the years that only Patriots fans paid attention to. His week in and week out ability to shift the look of team was amazing. He focused solely on winning the game. He played the players who were best able to beat that specific opponent. A lot of what he was able to do was probably only possible because he had Brady doing so much also.
A lot of you probably know this story, but I think it is very representative of the type of thing he continued to do all through the Pats dynasty with Brady. SB 25. Against the Bills. This game plan is now in the HOF. Giants won 20-19. At the time the league was much more run heavy. The Giants were great against the run, keeping even the best well in-check. The Bills had an amazing runner in Thurman Thomas. But they also had the "K-Gun" throwing game. Belichick devised a plan that involved an element which he continued to use during his Patriots years. This game plan forced his own players to put their egos in check. And it forced the Bills into thinking they were doing something more successfully than they really were, or at least to do something they might not have wanted to do. I am linking a story about it that sums it up pretty well. But the gist of it is that Belichick went to his defense the week before the game and told them that they were going to let Thomas run for 100 yards. They were going to employ almost exclusively only two down linemen. And they were going to use extra DBs/linebackers to bring force against the Bills receivers unlike they had seen all year. And the point of all of this was to get the Bills feeling like their running game was what was working that night so that they they would eventually lean on that. Belichick's use of psychology also, in my opinion, played big role in getting the Seahawks to throw that ill-fated pass.
https://www.giants.com/news/belichick-s-gameplan
@LandrysFedora I have mentioned here before, and in response to you, that I live in Dallas/Fort Worth and have since 2006. I honestly probably know the Cowboys and Mavericks much better than I know my beloved Patriots and Celtics. I have also mentioned that I love sports radio. The truth is that I love listening to talk radio in general. You can find things on there that are not regularly found in other forms of media. Podcasts currently come to mind as a form of media that is replicating something that was always pretty exclusive to radio. Anyway, I have heard countless amazing stories told by Cowboys players, coaches, and insiders. A lot of the classic stories are in reference to the Jimmy Johnson era. Also I have heard much about Romo, which is why I have always been a big fan of what he was able to accomplish against the odds. Obviously there are many books written on Coach Landry. I am not a Landry expert, and will not pretend to be one. He is spoken about with the highest regard. Seriously, he is an absolute legend. I like how he was "old school" while also being innovative. This is a parallel with Belichick. I am going to link a story that details the firing of Landry. It contains details that a lot of fans might not know, and makes Jerry Jones seem like much less of a villain in this regard than many people think. Another interesting nugget told by a local writer whose name escapes me is that this writer called Landry at home (as was the norm, with Mrs. Landry answering) late at night to tell him that the team had been sold.
https://coachfore.org/2017/10/19/landry/
Edited one word for reason I will now address in comment below
I am not explaining myself as to my objection to the GOAT concept- that has been done repeatedly to the point where an annoyance factor will eventually register somewhere.
My answer is the unpopular answer... George Halas
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Marty, Reeves & Reid but no Lombardi?
I'd argue Bill Walsh is the GOAT.
He had the regular season wins, Super Bowl wins, innovation, and he spawned numerous head coaches ("coaching tree".
Others had more regular season wins
Others had more Super Bowl wins
Others innovated
Others had their own "coaching trees"
Walsh had all four.
Steve
Marty, Reeves & Reid but no Lombardi?
As posted in the OP, the list is the top 10 coaches in win total.
Noll - 4-0 in super bowls
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Bud Grant.
Two of you guys gave me a like on my word-salad comment above, but as I said, perhaps my comments are getting too long and they are making your eyes glaze over. I think I have proof of that, because you didn't call me out on what I find to be a hilarious mistake (ok, maybe not that funny). I didn't proof-read that comment, but just now glancing at it I realized that I needed to make an edit. That Bills offense was known as the "K-Gun" offense. In my comment, I called it the K-pop offense. Kpop is Korean pop music.
George Allen. One of the best...ever....Turned two crap teams into winners. Hard as nails.
Hank Stram rates up there at the top with the best. He brought the AFL up to parity with the NFL. Then the merger. Revolutionary...... It was a BIG DEAL at the time.......Also, in my opinion, he was the best football announcer ever.....low key and knowledgeable..... He was the best.....
It's a bit tough to exclude certain coaches on your list. But I can only base my pick(s) with coaches whose teams I saw play. So my vote is split between BB and Don Shula.
I don't agree with any of the top 10 in the OP. Missed Bill Walsh in the list, he developed a new way to play football with his West Coast offense that excelled with Montana and Young throwing to Rice, Taylor, Clark, etc. He was thus far more innovative than many on the OP list, and he won many a championship as well.
From wikipedia:
"In all, Walsh served as 49ers head coach for 10 years, winning three championships, in the 1981, 1984, and 1988 seasons."
He also established the framework for two more SB wins (that is 5 total SB wins). He also has an incredible 'coaching tree'. He is clearly the GOAT based on winning, innovation, and building a strong legacy with putting successful coaches into the league.
Spaceman, 🚀, you said it all brother.......nothing I can add to it. 👍
He also has an incredible 'coaching tree'. He is clearly the GOAT based on winning, innovation, and building a strong legacy with putting successful coaches into the league.
The "coaching tree" legacy impacting Walsh as the GOAT is interesting, especially when you consider that Walsh came from the tree of first Sid Gillman and then Paul Brown. It was with the Bengals under Brown where he developed the beginning of that West Coast Offense.
So if I use your logic that Walsh "established the framework for two more SB wins" should I by extension assign the Super Bowls of Walsh to Paul Brown?? It's an interesting way to think about things but not very realistic, probably safer to say both men influenced many other in regard to their future coaching careers.
Also, regarding the initial list, it is as explained the top 10 in wins in NFL history, that's all, nothing sinister or trying to exclude anyone.
The Minnesota Vikings invented the West Coast Offense. Pretty common knowledge if you actually do the research.
Regrettably Keets is not here to support Paul Brown. Brown would be my second choice.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Absolutely - coaching tree matters. Difference is Paul Brown was not the one who re-invented how to play football even though he must have influenced Walsh...........
I missed that. Thanks.
Difference is Paul Brown was not the one who re-invented how to play football even though he must have influenced Walsh
We each are supportive of our own Head Coach and can offer reasons. But we cannot ignore evidence in support of another or against our own argument just because it's convenient.
Bill Walsh certainly had a great influence on changes in the NFL which tended to be directed at a style of play. It has taken more than 30 years to become fully developed from Walsh's 49ers to the point where most teams have abandoned any type of running game, but passing in the way he envisioned it is now king. The thing is that Walsh didn't "invent" anything. The concept was first used by Sid Gillman in the 1960's and Bill Walsh was a young assistant there. When he moved to the Bengals under HC Paul Brown the system was further developed.
Also, during the 1960's and early 1970's the Washington Redskins used a similar offense with Sonny Jurgenson and the Chargers in the 1970's had "Air Coryell" with Dan Fouts. My point is simply that this was a style of play that developed over a long period of time because it worked well but tends to be dependent on the right personnel. Bill Walsh just happened to have those players, Montana and Rice, so the system is linked most strongly to him.
As far as re-inventing things, some stuff is "pretty common knowledge if you actually do the research" as @JoeBonzai posted above, that's what Coach Brown did.
All the above notwithstanding, it's hard to overlook what Vince Lombardi did with the Packers in the short time he was there. Heck, the powers to be thought so much of it that they named a trophy after him.
@Maywood - Bill Walsh was never with Sid Gillman in the 1960s. I have read that when he was coaching with Brown at the Bengals, he watched The Sid Gillman Show on television and thought Sid's system was brilliant. He took that to SF and expanded upon it with the 49ers.
I don't know if he was the best, but Gillman was incredibly influential. He began using film as a study tool in the early 1930s. He also hired pro football's first strength coach, completely redesigned offensive football, and was reportedly the first coach to assign roommates by position instead of choice to force black and white players to room together and thus nullify potential race issues on his teams in the 1960s. Even into his late 80s/early 90s he was receiving game films weekly and reviewing them for NFL teams - the Chiefs, Raiders and Vermeil's Rams in particular.
I believe Walsh started the "West coast offense" with the Bengals in the early seventies. While Minnesota may have run a similar offense I don't believe they were the same.
Matt
@AFLfan, my bad. He worked for Al Davis who had been influenced by Sid Gillman.