Two much better date $10 Liberties shipped/stolen
logger7
Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭✭✭
Date: 9/1/2022
Type of Incident: Postal Theft
Investigating agency: USPS
Location: TRANSIT NY TO OREGON
Details:
A package being sent from New York to Oregon was received by the recipient
with the contents removed. One end of the package had been opened and re-
taped.
The package contained the following coins:
Anyone with information contact:
Doug Davis
817-723-7231
Doug@numismaticcrimes.org
2
Comments
Wow, sorry to hear this. Looks like $20k in the two. Hope there is positive resolution.
thats why i always insure packages over 1,000
Priority, Registered, Express?
Anything high value and gold I'd do registered. If you have Hugh Woods, etc. insurance they cover fairly high on coins like this.
So was this Registered?
Sorry for your loss. Hope you recover the coins and those responsible are held accountable.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
I think we all need some more details.
How was it shipped?
If it was shipped registered mail there is tracking from the 1st person to the next person. Each person that takes the package must sign for it.
Please fill us in
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Ouch, I would never consider shipping something like this ANY other way than USPS Registered. Based on the description of the incident, I highly doubt it was sent Registered.
If you have private insurance, they sometimes dictate Express mail.
I can see that. It would still make me very uneasy. I'd probably also look for a private insurer that allows Registered as well as Express Mail.
You're wasting your money with a private insurer if you use registered mail since, if you follow USPS rules, you're insured by the USPS.
Was the package wrapped with brown water tape? Pretty bold for the thief to cut through that.
Clearly we need more information about HOW the package was shipped…
It's called "signature chain of custody". Before I sign for any package, I'll inspect it for tampering. If it looks suspicious, I'll ask the mailman to witness me opening the package.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I recommend Registered for such shipments. Or packaging such that it does not attract attention. Cheers, RickO
I think any one sending coins through the mail should not use anything that relates to coins in their return address and even the addressee. For example, instead of XYZ Coin Co., use XYZ Co. only. Why tip off potential thieves that there is something valuable in the package.
That sucks.
My YouTube Channel
I thought USPS had lost a shipment to my POB about 2 weeks ago. A $34 slabbed coin purchase MV $55. Even the clerk could not find it when asked about it. I checked the pob again today the package was there. It had a note on it “sorry opened thought it was mine” The packaged taped where opened. They had put it in the wrong POB! The coin was there in its slab undamaged. Thankfully the person who got it was honest.
A package of a $25 non numismatic item was lost about 6 months ago. They never could find it.
About 2 wk ago my po was shut down for about 8 days no reason given. Could not get to my POB. Of all things A Pcgs banknote shipment arrived in the middle of this. I was worried, high anxiety it could be lost or stolen. Tracking said a (signature) slip was put in my POB. The first day lobby open went to my POB - no slip! Went to counter - a clerk known for years brought the box to me. Relief, everything was there. Why did tracking say slip left there but it was not there? Was it put in wrong POB? During the shutdown they had a trailer for cash sales of stamps, supplies, etc. if you were a POB customer you had to wait in a long hot line outside then they would look at your ID then bring a box with whatever in your POB after going into the building.
Expensive coins over $300 don’t like to do online. Prefer My table at shows only.
Be sure and insure your stuff if sending in mail! Items can be lost in transit or even at destination.
You are only insured by the USPS if you pay for their insurance. You can use Registered Mail in tandem with a Third Party Insurance Provider. You are simply using the Registered service for the additional security. You're not double insuring it, that would be a waste of money.
You can only do that by violating the terms you are supposedly agreeing to by using the service. From the USPS DMM:
2.2.1 Declaring Full Value
The mailer must always declare the item’s full value (see chart below) to the USPS (by stating it to the USPS clerk or entering it on the firm sheet if a firm mailer) when presenting it for registration and mailing. Private insurance carried on Registered Mail does not modify the requirements for declaring the full value. The accepting USPS employee may ask the mailer to show that the full value of the matter presented is declared, and may refuse to accept the matter as Registered Mail if a satisfactory declaration of value is not provided. Only articles of no value may be mailed as Registered Mail without insurance.
https://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/503.htm#ep1238627
edited to add... You used to be able to ship by registered mail without buying the insurance, but not any more. Below, the old form (left) and current one (right).
" Urgent UPDATE "
NCIC has received information that a suspect has attempted to sell the two $10 gold pieces (1871 AU55 and 1858 AU50) which was sent out in a previous alert to at least two coin shops in the Newark, New Jersey area. The coins have been cracked out of the slabs. In both cases the suspect refused offers.
The suspect is described as a black male, approx. 6ft tall, scraggly beard, mid 40's, medium build, wearing a baseball cap.
Happened to me with a less valuable NGC graded coin. The USPS delivered to the incorrect address though (but didn't know where). Unknown recipient kept the package. NGC has the coin registered as stolen now but anyone who knows coins and how to check them will most likely crack them out.
Wish you the best and all good luck. The USPS was useless in my case and the seller never put insurance on the package.
Pocket Change Inspector
One thought on registered; you insure the item for 5X fair market value which it might be worth under some circumstances (you are shipping it to a grading company where it may grade much higher than you bought it as, or to an auction where your rainbow toned coin could go for 10x Coinfacts average sales). Does the usps research fair market or the insured value on lost/stolen items?
If you file a claim, you'll be expected to document the value you are claiming. If the coins are on the way to be graded, I would guess you're not going to get credit for the value of a graded coin, as the coins have not yet been graded.
Thanks for the update. Is there any way a savvy dealer could nail the criminal like this who walks into a shop? Give the guy a check and stop payment on it?
Does the post office go by whatever value you declare, or by your paid invoices for the coins, or by some coin guide value such as PCGS Coin Facts, greysheet, etc.
From here:
https://pe.usps.com/text/DMM300/609.htm?q=claims&h=Claims&t=H&s=R&p=1&c=DMM
3.2 Proof of Value
Either the mailer or the addressee must submit acceptable proof to establish the cost or value of the article at the time it was mailed. Proof of value should be submitted electronically or attached to the claim form under 1.5; otherwise, the claim cannot be processed. Other proof may be requested to help determine an accurate value. Examples are:
a. A sales receipt, paid invoice or bill of sale, or statement of value from a reputable dealer.
4.1 Payable Claim
Insurance for loss or damage to insured, COD, or Registered Mail within the amount covered by the fee paid, or the indemnity limits for Priority Mail, or Priority Mail Express (under 4.2), is payable for the following:
a. Article’s actual value when mailed.
g. For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date.
I can't imagine any thief selling stolen property for anything other than cash. Hopefully the coin dealer had security cameras and got some good pics of the thief.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That's a mix of dismaying and intriguing. Was there delivery confirmation? Tracking info? What exactly did the USPS say? "We delivered it somewhere?"
Many years ago a dealer known for over-pricing all his material had a couple choice AU key civil war date gold pieces in his case that were uncertified. There was no good reason they would not have been certified or priced low, but I bought them for his price and contacted "numismatic crime" just to see if they are hot. Doug said he did not have a report on them.
One of the major threats to the hobby are shown in stories as with these gold coins stolen in transit.
The thief should get a fair trial, then hang.
I've found that this is pretty common with USPS, UPS, and FedEx, having had several misc. boxes cut into and contents stolen. No coins yet thankfully. Mostly stuff from Amazon.
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
Also any dealer or pawn show knowingly buying stolen material like this needs to be convicted of a felony then barred from the business.
I’m a little suspect about trying to sell in the Newark area. The only 2 coin shops in Newark/Elizabeth deal in low cost coins. The nearest higher end coin shops are 15 miles away. I know both and neither were offered these coins. The suspect can’t be too smart trying to sell a $20k coin in a shop that may have $100 coins.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
The question to me is how a suspect cuts a package open going from NY to Oregon and then goes to a NJ shop, he would have had to pilfer it at a facility, presumably early on in the package's trip, unless he decided to travel a long distance to throw off the pursuit of the authorities.
I could have happened anywhere between the point of shipment and its destination. My mailman told me it's usually a contractor carrier who transports the bulk mail shipments between cities or mail hubs. I'm guessing it wasn't shipped as registered mail so there is no signature chain of custody. I'm also guessing that the sticker on the outside of the package showed a high dollar amount paid for insured shipping which tipped off the thief that the package contained valuable merchandise. I hope they catch the thief but he would most likely be released on no cash bail and then flee the state.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This was the notice as NE coin said:
Date: 9/14/2022
Type of Incident: USPS Theft
Investigating agency: USPS
Location: TRANSIT NY TO OREGON
NCIC has received information that a suspect has attempted to sell the two $10 gold pieces (1871 AU55 and 1858 AU50) which was sent out in a previous alert to at least two coin shops in the Newark, New Jersey area. The coins have been cracked out of the slabs. In both cases the suspect refused offers.
The suspect is described as a black male, approx. 6ft tall, scraggly beard, mid 40's, medium build, wearing a baseball cap.
Anyone with information contact:
Doug Davis
817-723-7231
Doug@numismaticcrimes.org
A felony just isn't what it used to be. Rather, there is no fear of consequences for thieves , liars, or cheaters in society, today . It is no wonder , when we coddle the criminals.
Here is an idea of someone who was robbed of an item like this: put the best pictures you have on ebay, price the coin at PCGS price guide or cac retail pricing. Say in your buy it now ebay ad that the pictured item was stolen, offering a reward for the recovery. Any pawn shop or other potential serious buyer is going to go online to check out prices; when they see the coin listed they are holding they may call the authorities or take other efficacious actions.
There was tracking and so I lost my case with Ebay because they sided with the seller saying it was delivered. The USPS claimed they investigated but couldn't find anything. I doubt they did squat. They said the seller should have insured the package. If the seller had tracking though I thought that carried some kind of minimum insurance. Up to $50? Maybe I'm wrong or he collected on it. I ended up going thru my credit card which being with them for along time covered me under "purchase protection" or something like that even though they said my situation didn't fall under the specs for it.
Pocket Change Inspector
Another theft in the mail reported by NCIC:
Date: 9/12/2022
Type of Incident: LOST/STOLEN
Investigating Agency: USPS
Location: TRANSIT MARYLAND TO FLORIDA
Details:
A package sent via USPS has been reported lost/stolen. Tracking shows the
package being delivered but was not received by the recipient. The package
contained the following coin listed below.
1800/1798 Bust Large Cent Overdate S191 PCGS XF-40 Cert#28499514 from the
Dan Holmes Collection.
Anyone with information contact:
Doug Davis
817-723-7231
Doug@numismaticcrimes.org