Slightly off topic. Anyone here a lawyer?
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Obviously I am not asking for legal advice, just a general question. Long story short I’m kinda desperate hence why I’m turning to advice from strangers on the internet on a coin forum. I’d hire a lawyer but I can’t afford one; nor is this worth it. Figured someone’s on here gotta be a lawyer.
Generally speaking, would (hypothetically or whatever) a contract being breached by the other party (Celsius Networks LLC) before it entered chapter 11 bankruptcy give me cause to prevent my assets (crypto currency) from being transferred to said estate? They committed tons of fraud. They paused withdrawals of crypto for a month, and before they declared bankruptcy I told them to close my account, which is allowed in the TOS, they refused and stated that they stopped withdrawals as the TOS allows them to. I consider this a breach of contract and I would assume any reasonable person would. I told them to not pay me any more interest etc, the TOS states that to close my account I simply have to email them my wish to do so (which I did).
They also are burning money like crazy basically paying themselves tons of bonuses. They also spent like 4x what they owe me fighting me so far. I’m trying to basically be able to sue them since they have bankruptcy protection from lawsuits.
I’m extremely out of my depth here and going pro se against some massive law firms with exponentially more resources than me (hell the filing fees alone are more than I can afford) so literally any help I can get is greatly appreciated (please don’t tell me to go hire a lawyer since I can’t).
Edit 3:14 am est. I’ve got class and to get up in like 6 hours so I’m going to bed. Simply google “Celsius networks” and you will get tons of info. They stopped withdrawals to prevent a bank run because people saw that they were a Ponzi (kinda). The CEO was a absolute moron and this is like The Wolf Of Wallstreet but when they make this movie, they will need to make it less stupid and crazy to make it not seem like fiction. They gave someone access to billions of dollars on a handshake deal. Like seriously? Of course the dude stole a lot of it. And they saw him stealing and said “please stop” and didn’t do anything about it for literal months. All while lying about how everything is fine
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Your question isn't clear. I gather that a corporation you have been working with has some assets of yours and is now going bankrupt... But they breached a contract you had with them prior to bankruptcy? Am I reading this right?
Are they trying to use your assets to pay off debt or something?
https://www.the4thcoin.com
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I’m gonna edit it for clarity’s sake. The company was a crypto lender who basically committed a shit ton of fraud and “lost” billions of dollars. They stopped withdrawals of crypto as the tos allowed, but refused to close my account which violated the TOS; hence the breach.
You're effed, let the bankruptcy trustee do their job and you might get some money in the end without doing anything. In the meantime, you've stumbled an excellent hobby to lose the rest of your money.
But wouldn’t the breach of contract mean that the contract itself was voided hence the assets shouldn’t have been transferred? Also what makes you say that, are you a lawyer or not? (All genuine questions don’t mean any offense)
People/companies are allowed to breach contracts. If there's a bankruptcy, maybe there's some money to share with the hordes of people in your class. But there might be secured creditors or creditors with greater priority than you, or there might just not be any money left. Don't hold your breath.
Everyone here is a lawyer or a plastic surgeon. Welcome. I wish I became a dentist. Those guys have it good.
Not a lawyer.
You need to separate civil from criminal. While you may have an excellent civil case, that won't get you any money in a bankruptcy. If you could prove criminal fraud, that might get you justice but still no money. Is the DA or AG looking at the case or are you just casually throwing around the term "fraud"?
By the way, if they are allowed to stop withdrawals doesn't that imply that they can stop account closure? I mean, your steely to close the account was an attempt to withdraw your money. So, if they allow themselves to stop withdrawals, that would also allow them to deny redemption of all kinds, including closure, would it not?
The breach occurred BEFORE the bankruptcy was filed let alone approved. My logic is that if it was breached, my assets shouldn’t have been moved to the bankruptcy estate
Officially they aren’t investigating it. The UCC is investigating, and several states are aswell. Why won’t I get money in a civil case? I’m requesting a exemption to the automatic stay. Hearings on Thursday
Theoretically yes, but that wasn’t written in the contract. If it wasn’t written, it doesn’t matter. Or at least that’s my logic. Only what’s written in the contract matters.
Because they are bankrupt. They can't create money to give you. You would win a meaningless judgment.
No. Literally billions in assets. They just don’t have enough to pay everyone.
Does it say you can close your account and get money? I bet it didn't. If they are allowed by the TOS to stop payouts, your right to close the account is moot, unless you want to close the account and let them keep the money.
Again, this point is moot. No matter when the breach occurred, at this point you are simply in line with all the other creditors, ALL of whom suffered some kind of breach.
Not really. The breach in contract only occurred because I requested to close the account. Most people did not. I also filed a lawsuit in small claims before then.
No. 167 million in assets... against as much as 25 billion in liabilities according to the news stories. So. You're looking at 1% recovery.
If the money isn't there (hence the bankruptcy) then they can't and won't pay you, regardless of what the contract/TOS say. That's aside from the outcome of the bankruptcy, of course.
Even if someone here is a lawyer and tells you that you have a case, then you'll have to hire a lawyer, but you've already said you're not going to do that.
And, if they were allowed to stop withdrawals then declining your request to close your account if that involved a withdrawal does not sound like a breach of contract.
All of this is another reason for me to be skeptical of Crypto...
Closing the account would transfer the funds to a so called custody account which would cause me to recover the $$, just later. Long story but they are treated differently
That’s blatantly false. The liability’s are something like 6.2 billion. The assets are something like 4.9 (per them but it’s inflated) the actually liabilities and assets gap is about 30% once you account for actual value and remove the worthless CEL tokens.
See the filings in court tho it doesn’t matter. The 25b was the peak assets they held at one point. The 167m is CASH. Mostly the value is in crypto
Crypto is fine… it’s me being a idiot and trusting a centralized platform that isn’t. The reason I have a case is since I told them to close my account which caused the breach of contract (before they filed) that would mean that my assets should not have been transferred.
I went through the Worldcom bankruptcy. I lost $5000 on the stock. As a stockholder, I had the same status as you: unsecured creditor. They literally pled guilty to fraud. About 5 years after the bankruptcy, I got a check for $80.
The company still basically exists under a different name. That is the nature of bankruptcy. Creditors lose money. According to news stories. Your TOS designated all accounts as unsecured loans not depositors.
Idk. I read 2 news stories. But if your numbers are correct, you should eventually recover some percentage of your money.
Correct. My logic is that the breach in contract would mean that I should not be a participant of the bankruptcy (and from what I understand about law). But I was looking for info from lawyers since you and I (both non lawyers) don’t really know much.
It doesn't matter. Once the entire entity is in bankruptcy, there is no way to sever you and put your claim where? There isn't a separate entity to assign it to. The only thing you might be able to do is get yourself assigned a different priority. But, respectfully, you are drawing an awfully fine line... you should be a lawyer. Lol. I mean, arguing that they can suspend payments but not if you choose your account...
This thread will be closed soon for being off topic. But, you should take as many screenshots and save any files you have to keep in a safe place just in case you will need them for reference at some point.
You don't seem very old which is good if so. You are at a point where you can afford to take risks like buying into crypto and still have plenty of time left in life to recover from a loss.
I myself, lost thousands years ago when full tilt shut down. It took years where I just considered it a loss but I did eventually get money back.
Good luck.
join a class action.
Lmao. Honestly it’s one of the professions I’m considering. From my understanding the process is called adversary proceedings of moving me to a separate proceeding. I’m hoping to win this motion tho. Pretty sure there is a way to get people who don’t belong out of bankruptcy
And now that Celsius has filed for bankruptcy, it has very little power to do anything without the judge’s permission. And Celsius has stated it “is not requesting authority to allow customer withdrawals at this time. Customer claims will be addressed through the Chapter 11 process.”
The above was in a news release.
I see there is a claim hotline 1-855-423-1530 to submit a claim so you can 'get in line'.
Based on general life experience it seems to me that bankruptcy changes everything. Everyone who is owed money had a valid claim of one kind or another before the bankruptcy filing.
Just because the debt or entitlement existed before the filing doesn't magically change the situation. Bankruptcy is an extreme step and people get burned. That's the reality of it.
How about the guy who kept the water coolers filled? Or the caterer for the office parties? Or the landlord? Should the money owed to them not have been transferred to the bankruptcy entity?
You're just one more in a long line of creditors who got left holding the bag.
Thank you for the advice. I got all of the evidence I need. I am fairly young, freshman in college. Most of it is in video form which others backed up. Even if they didn’t, under oath deposition. Hard to deny it if it’s literally on video
No point due to the stay
Why do you think I did. I filed a motion requesting permission to pursue the suit.
Slightly different thing. Those people are being paid. But fair point
Legally, it's not at all different. You are all unsecured creditors. How you got to be creditors (work, deposit, loan, lease, etc.) is irrelevant.
One of my sons had money in on of the crypto’s and the company that held the TerraUSD Stablecoin. He lost about $15,000. He’s a grown man and didn’t tell me about it until it collapsed. He explained that he had these crypto Coins and he would lend them out and get like 10%~14% interest. I told him the old “ if it’s to good to be true” it most likely is. Then I gave him some money to help him move to a new apartment. I lost money in Lehman Brother options when the Mortgage crisis happened. I think most of us have had a ut-oh moment and lost before. I’m Sorry for your loss & hopefully you will be made whole.
Mike
MIKE B.
I can understand why some people buy gold, take physical possession, and then hide it away.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The problem really wasn't so much the "crypto" as it was the structure of the operation. They were leasing crypto and they had set it up so that all depositors were essentially unsecured creditors. The fine print of that operation would have kept me away from that. Putting crypto in a wallet gives you possession (digital) of it and would not lead to these issues.
This isn't so much about crypto, at least not directly. It is indirectly about crypto because it is the lack of regulation/oversight in the industry that leads to the existence of such sketchy operations. Of course, one of the things people like about crypto is that it isn't under the government's thumb...at least not yet.
No lawyer here. In fact, I'm violating the terms of service ( technically) for even posting this. The internet of things gone bad. It's a destructive place , online today.
I'm curious. When you say you lost money; are you thinking in terms of your initial investment, or about the value of your crypto including any growth it saw? The accounts being classified as "unsecured loans" seems to leave you pretty low on the list of possible creditors. No doubt it will play out in court for years & lawyers will make money.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I was getting ~3-4% interest. One of the coins was ETH. Staking ETH > ETH2 gives you ~4-5% interest. I couldn't do it myself since you need 32 minimum to do it. So the interest rate wasn't that big of a flad
That and that they gave out some loans completely unsecured, and took insanely stupid risks.
Yes. LOL
But all of the above. Technically the USD I put in VS its current value is down. But I'm much more worried about the crypto itself.
wdym. like the TOS of these forums?
Yes. There are forum rules.
"Slightly" off topic??? Look at the rules which do get enforced more than on any other forum I've been a member of. Try Quatloos which covers fraud.
Yes. I'm afraid to say anything that doesn't deal with US Coins. I got too many warnings for straying
Idk what Quatloos is but technically it is about coins. Just digital ones
NP it technically involves coins and US coins. Just digital ones. Like USDC (US dollar coin)
This is the main reason I never dabbled in Crypto. Way way way too many horror stories.
They call me "Pack the Ripper"