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Any current plans to add a dedicated Exonumia Forum-Medals, Tokens, Socalled Dollars on CU,, etc.?

NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

I've seen some old posts asking about this. It would be nice because I feel a lot of exonumia posts get overlooked on the US coin forum. PCGS does grade a lot of these pieces now.

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    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Missed this when it first posted and then it sank like a rock. I really don't think a separate forum is necessary or proper but maybe we can get @Zoins to moderate the content of Exonumia related threads!! :p

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In my opinion you would lose a lot of eyeballs if PCGS opened a dedicated forum to exonumia. I also don't believe such a forum would have enough volume to be vibrant. The current set-up, with exonumia largely within the US forum, exposes lots of folks to this interesting collecting area and does so in a manner that is not stale (for lack of post volume).

    Regardless, if we had a dedicated exonumia forum and most folks ignored it then @Zoins might feel like he did something wrong and was being punished alone in the corner!

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    ByersByers Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2022 11:43AM

    Even if @Zoins gets punished in the corner, no doubt he will still use his cell to continue his prolific threads and posts, unless they take his cell away too😳

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I often thought a forum heading forced on the poster to select from a list as to the content's subject rather than allowing gibberish that does not even closely describe questions/content of the post now being used in subject line. Just a thought. More likely needed for new posters.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2022 12:40PM

    Would patterns go into coins or exonumia? ;)

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    LazybonesLazybones Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mmmm...exonumia...



    USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.

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    EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2022 1:31PM

    @Zoins said:
    Would patterns go into coins or exonumia? ;)

    Patterns are NOT exonumia and they should never be mentioned in the same breath or listed within the same category as tokens and medals. JMHO.

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

    ANA LM

    USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2022 1:29PM

    @EXOJUNKIE said:

    @Zoins said:
    Would patterns go into coins or exonumia? ;)

    Patterns are NOT exonumia and they should never be mentioned in the same breath or listed within the same category. JMHO.

    That might be true, but they're not coins either :D

    And what about "concept coins"? ;)

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    EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would enjoy an exonumia forum but I agree with others that it probably wouldn’t draw enough interest.

    What about a “parking lot finds” forum? >:)

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

    ANA LM

    USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
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    EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @EXOJUNKIE said:

    @Zoins said:
    Would patterns go into coins or exonumia? ;)

    Patterns are NOT exonumia and they should never be mentioned in the same breath or listed within the same category. JMHO.

    That might be true, but they're not coins either :D

    And what about "concept coins"? ;)

    I respectfully disagree. Patterns ARE coins, albeit experimental, or trial, coins produced to evaluate a proposed coin design … completely different than tokens and medals. At the very least, patterns are much more closely related to coins than exonumia.

    I’d be surprised if any dedicated pattern collector considered their patterns “exonumia.”

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

    ANA LM

    USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2022 1:57PM

    @EXOJUNKIE said:

    @Zoins said:

    @EXOJUNKIE said:

    @Zoins said:
    Would patterns go into coins or exonumia? ;)

    Patterns are NOT exonumia and they should never be mentioned in the same breath or listed within the same category. JMHO.

    That might be true, but they're not coins either :D

    And what about "concept coins"? ;)

    I respectfully disagree. Patterns ARE coins, albeit experimental, or trial, coins produced to evaluate a proposed coin design … completely different than tokens and medals. At the very least, patterns are much more closely related to coins than exonumia.

    I think patterns certainly include trials, but I don't consider them coins because I don't think they are legal tender which is part of my definition for coins.

    I’d be surprised if any dedicated pattern collector considered their patterns “exonumia.”

    For better or worse, I think dedicated collectors of "private patterns" tend to classify their patterns as "exonumia," even if they wish they didn't have to.

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    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said: For better or worse, I think dedicated collectors of "private patterns" tend to classify their patterns as "exonumia," even if they wish they didn't have to.

    Wow, that's the first I ever heard that.

    The following is from "PCGS lingo" which is clear about what PCGS thinks:
    pattern
    A test striking of a coin produced to demonstrate a proposed design, size, or composition (whether adopted or not). Patterns often are made in metals other than the one proposed; examples of this include aluminum and copper patterns of the silver Trade dollar. Off-metal strikes such as this also are referred to as die trials of a pattern.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2022 2:45PM

    @Maywood said:
    @Zoins said: For better or worse, I think dedicated collectors of "private patterns" tend to classify their patterns as "exonumia," even if they wish they didn't have to.

    Wow, that's the first I ever heard that.

    The following is from "PCGS lingo" which is clear about what PCGS thinks:
    pattern
    A test striking of a coin produced to demonstrate a proposed design, size, or composition (whether adopted or not). Patterns often are made in metals other than the one proposed; examples of this include aluminum and copper patterns of the silver Trade dollar. Off-metal strikes such as this also are referred to as die trials of a pattern.

    Private patterns are an interesting field given the changing nature of US Government design requests. The issue is that traditional pattern catalogers do not seem to be on the same page as the people responding to recent US government requests. It would be great to have Judd or Pollock numbers for the following, but since they don't, the TPGs and collectors tend to classify them as exonumia.

    The following is a piece requested by US Representative Mike Castle for coin designs. It was done by Ron Landis and Joe Rust of Gallery Mint and presented to the US Congress. These days, Congress determines the subject matter for US coins, but traditional catalogers do not appear to consider pieces made at the request of Congress, just pieces made at the request of the Mint. This is certified by PCGS but only because it's in Krause's Unusual Coins reference, not a pattern reference. This piece is owned by @coinsarefun. I have two of these that still need TrueViews.

    Here's more info from SmallDollars.com:

    http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page17.html

    @MWallace said:
    Two varieties were struck in brass with the Statue of Liberty design, dated 2000, on normal size planchets featuring a plain edge. These are called "Media" and "Congressional" issues. The "Media issue", was distributed to selected members of the media. The "Congressional issue" was distributed to members of congress to provide an example of the proposed coin. The obverse design, by former Mint engraver James Ferrell, was found in the Mint archives and was suggested by U. S. House Representative Mike Castle. This design was actually written into the original bill. The reverse design was one of four designs that made it to the final round of the selection process. The "Media issue" and the "Congressional issue" are distinguished by the number of sun rays on the obverse. The Media issue has 11 rays and the Congressional issue has 13 rays. The actual mintage of the Media issue is unknown, but it is estimated to be between 55 and 70 pieces. An 11 Rays "Media issue" struck on a piedfort planchet was acquired by Verne Walrafen in March 2005. How many were struck on a piedfort planchet is unknown, but it is presumably unique. There were 100 pieces of the Congressional issue struck.

    Here's one I own that Dan @dcarr did for a recent US Mint design competition with his info in the following post. He wrote that he believes this should be considered a pattern.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13298117/#Comment_13298117

    @dcarr said:
    As I remember, there were two phases to the design competition for the WW1 Centennial Dollar.

    In the first phase, applicants submitted a resume and examples of their past work. This did not (yet) involve any designing for the WW1 coin.

    From the pool of applicants from phase 1, the US Mint selected a number of artists to invite. Those invited were requested to submit renderings of their proposed design, as well as actual "sculpts" (galvanos). The Mint provided 9-inch diameter clear acrylic discs for artists to carve or use as bases for their sculpts.

    This was an experimental program for the US Mint. It was the only design competition in recent times where actual sculpts were to be submitted by artists.

    I carved my sculpts into the provided clear acrylic discs. I also cut 8-inch diameter black acrylic discs (which looked better than the clear, in my opinion). I submitted one set of clear sculpts and one set of black sculpts (and I kept one extra set of black sculpts). Eventually I also submitted two 38mm struck examples in silver.

    Here are images of all the documents that I have regarding this design competition:

    Original sketches:


    [...]
    My extra set of black acrylic models:

    [...]
    This is the only related US Mint document that I have:

    This is my specimen:

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2022 2:57PM

    @TomB said:
    In my opinion you would lose a lot of eyeballs if PCGS opened a dedicated forum to exonumia. I also don't believe such a forum would have enough volume to be vibrant. The current set-up, with exonumia largely within the US forum, exposes lots of folks to this interesting collecting area and does so in a manner that is not stale (for lack of post volume).

    Regardless, if we had a dedicated exonumia forum and most folks ignored it then @Zoins might feel like he did something wrong and was being punished alone in the corner!

    I agree. I think it's nice to keep it together. That being said, I don't really have a feeling one way or the other. Both the current approach and the proposed approach are fine for me. I'd probably post in the new forum as much as I post in the World & Ancient Coins Forum. I just picked up a 16th century world coin too!

    A funny thing is that sometimes I get the feeling that more world coins can be posted in the US Coins forum than in the World Coins forum on any given week ;)

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2022 3:33PM

    Would patterns go into coins or exonumia? ;)

    I would say the coin forum. If it was minted by the US mint.

    IMO,private minted tokens and medals would go in the exonumia forum. HT tokens, CWT tokens, socalled dollars, Dcarr pieces, store cards,political pieces, Gallery Mint, etc.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinJP said:

    Would patterns go into coins or exonumia? ;)

    I would say the coin forum. If it was minted by the US mint.

    IMO,private minted tokens and medals would go in the exonumia forum. HT tokens, CWT tokens, socalled dollars, Dcarr pieces, store cards,political pieces, Gallery Mint, etc.

    A number of patterns with Judd and Pollock numbers are privately minted.

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @coinJP said:

    Would patterns go into coins or exonumia? ;)

    I would say the coin forum. If it was minted by the US mint.

    IMO,private minted tokens and medals would go in the exonumia forum. HT tokens, CWT tokens, socalled dollars, Dcarr pieces, store cards,political pieces, Gallery Mint, etc.

    A number of patterns with Judd and Pollock numbers are privately minted.

    Very true. Ok then those can be posted to the coin forum. Everything else exonumia forum. ;)

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2022 5:15PM

    @coinJP said:
    I've seen some old posts asking about this. It would be nice because I feel a lot of exonumia posts get overlooked on the US coin forum. PCGS does grade a lot of these pieces now.

    I feel we already have the best of both worlds with a main forum and tags. For example:

    My personal preference is to use the forums as they are and better use tags. Others have told me they like the tags as well.

    I noticed you posted a nice SCD thread a while back that could use the So-Called Dollars tag. Any reason you didn't tag it?

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @coinJP said:
    I've seen some old posts asking about this. It would be nice because I feel a lot of exonumia posts get overlooked on the US coin forum. PCGS does grade a lot of these pieces now.

    I feel we already have the best of both worlds with a main forum and tags. For example:

    My personal preference is to use the forums as they are and better use tags. Others have told me they like the tags as well.

    I noticed you posted a nice SCD thread a while back that could use the So-Called Dollars tag. Any reason you didn't tag it?

    I've never used the tag option before. I will do so in the future. Thanks Zoins! :)

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    Klif50Klif50 Posts: 662 ✭✭✭✭

    For years there was a non-sports card forum and it was pretty active. It got moved into the Trading Cards and Memorabilia Forum and now non-sports cards post are lost among all the sports card discussion. I suspect that if medals etc were given their own forum, you would find, after a few years that it is as slow and tumble-weedied as the Stamp Forum is now. I don't believe their is enough activity for that genre to generate the traffic a forum need to stay in existence.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 5, 2022 9:42PM

    @coinJP said:

    Would patterns go into coins or exonumia? ;)

    I would say the coin forum. If it was minted by the US mint.

    IMO,private minted tokens and medals would go in the exonumia forum. HT tokens, CWT tokens, socalled dollars, Dcarr pieces, store cards,political pieces, Gallery Mint, etc.

    It might actually end up like with situation with world coins which seems to be:

    • People that like world coins and don't like the US Coins forum, post world coins in the World Coins Forum
    • People that like world coins and like the US Coins forum, post world coins in the US Coins Forum

    Of course, there are some exceptions for people that post in both US and World Coin Forums.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My preference is to keep it as it is today. A separate forum would be interesting for those that concentrate on such items, but would not generate the viewings that they get presently on this forum. I enjoy seeing those items, but would visit such a forum only occasionally. On this forum, I view most of those items, and I do find them interesting as a related field. Cheers, RickO

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    DCWDCW Posts: 6,973 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with most others in that it would be a seldom traveled part of the forum. Occasionally, a regular "normal" coin collector will click on a thread about some token or medal in the US Coin forum and discover something new and exciting that leads them on a unexpected journey.
    That's a lot more likely if they don't have to go into a separate forum to make that discovery. And we outcasts in the exonumia community would love the company.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

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