How in the world does anyone, especially a grading company, grade mint toned coins? Example.

jesbroken

Here are 3 Roosies from my 55 mint set. PDS. How would anyone seriously be able to give a credible grade for such toned coins. Don't get me wrong, I know they do. I sure could not, even inhand. Just curious. If you can offer a serious grade for these 3 coins, do so and say why you feel that grade is evident. These have been in individual 2x2's for 8 or so years and out of the cardboard holders. Some dimes were without any toning to just a small amount. If someone asked me about the S mm I would have thought it to be circulated. I wish I had photographed them all at the same time with a quality camera, but it is what it is.
Jim

Estil

Indeed, like if I get toned coins while CRHing, how do I know if it's the kind that people pay extra money for and the ones that no one really cares about?

krueger

When toning progresses to black surfaces it is more damaged than light attractive toned . Removal leaves the coin washed out.
Not always easy to avoid such coins for your collection, but I would think twice before pulling the trigger.

DelawareDoons

Quality lighting goes a long long way.

TomB

I'm not slamming you here, but the P-and S-mint coins are photographed so poorly that no one could possibly give you a truly reliable grade from the images.

As for the subject in broader terms, I have dealt with toned coinage for decades (truly, decades) and find it quite easy to grade the pieces in-hand. It is very similar to grading untoned (white, gold, copper, whatever...) coins in that you look at the highpoints for wear and then the overall fabric of the surfaces for preservation and presentation. The toning is just another layer onto the grading paradigm and eye appeal certainly counts for something. HRH used to say on these forums "toning adds a little and forgives a lot" and he meant positive eye appeal when writing about toning. My grading of toned coins is just a touch more conservative than PCGS when looked at in aggregate over several decades, so I believe I see things much as PCGS does, but I value certain things more than PCGS does.

johnny9434

Fugly does it on the first one, jmo

DollarAfterDollar

They use a very strong light.

jesbroken

@TomB said:
I'm not slamming you here, but the P-and S-mint coins are photographed so poorly that no one could possibly give you a truly reliable grade from the images.

As for the subject in broader terms, I have dealt with toned coinage for decades (truly, decades) and find it quite easy to grade the pieces in-hand. It is very similar to grading untoned (white, gold, copper, whatever...) coins in that you look at the highpoints for wear and then the overall fabric of the surfaces for preservation and presentation. The toning is just another layer onto the grading paradigm and eye appeal certainly counts for something. HRH used to say on these forums "toning adds a little and forgives a lot" and he meant positive eye appeal when writing about toning. My grading of toned coins is just a touch more conservative than PCGS when looked at in aggregate over several decades, so I believe I see things much as PCGS does, but I value certain things more than PCGS does.

Thanks, Tom. I'm sorry for the pics, those were taken many years ago with a Sony Mavica that I used at the time. I'll try to dig the coins out of the boxes and rephotograph them, as I should have done previously. My bad.
Sorry to waste everyone's time. I knew better.
Jim

gumby1234

The P and S cant be determined from those photos. I would say the 55 D would be a 65 maybe 66. You can usually see thruogh the toning and be able to grade accurately. On the P mint 55 it could be tough.

derryb

your coins are not toned, they are tarnished.

gumby1234

@Estil said:
Indeed, like if I get toned coins while CRHing, how do I know if it's the kind that people pay extra money for and the ones that no one really cares about?

If the coin looks amazing or even really nice from the toning it might bring a premium. If it looks ugly then probably wont. In another recent thread I posted one of mine and there are other peoples coins with toning there. Look and see which ones have more eye appeal to you and you will have your answer.

Estil

@gumby1234 said:

@Estil said:
Indeed, like if I get toned coins while CRHing, how do I know if it's the kind that people pay extra money for and the ones that no one really cares about?

If the coin looks amazing or even really nice from the toning it might bring a premium. If it looks ugly then probably wont. In another recent thread I posted one of mine and there are other peoples coins with toning there. Look and see which ones have more eye appeal to you and you will have your answer.

But that all depends on how the potential buyer thinks the coin looks, not what I think. I personally don't like rusted/dirty looking coins, like how they can end up looking in those old fashioned mint/proof sets from the 40s/50s that only came on those cardboard thingies...

gumby1234

@Estil True, but most people will agree whether a coin looks nice or is ugly.

EDIT- For example here is the one I posted in the other thread.

Do you think this coin is worth a premium?

jesbroken

Let me be clear, I'm not interested in value of these coins, only that I am unable to differentiate a grade from them inhand from 63 to whatever. All I see is tarnish. I took them out of the carboard holders 8 or so years ago to prevent further tarnish. I do not feel any of them to be attractive, just a question about grading them. I only kept them because a treasured member of this board gave them to me as a gift. He gave me half a set of the 55's and I bought another to have a complete set, but they were not tarnished so did not match nearly enough to suit me. I sent a Washington and a Franklin in and were graded 64 and 64 fbl. Still have them all.
Thank you all for your consideration.
Jim

gumby1234

Jim that P mint looks almost impossible to determine the grade. Maybe a quick dip and rinse? Could be a nice coin under there.

TomB

@gumby1234 said:
Jim that P mint looks almost impossible to determine the grade. Maybe a quick dip and rinse? Could be a nice coin under there.

I wouldn't bother with a quick dip and rinse. The coin is worth very little and the toning is likely along the lines of a mixture of deep blue and auburn, which is often found on the 1955 US mint set silver pieces. That type of deep toning does not always want to be removed from a coin.

Estil

@gumby1234 said:
@Estil True, but most people will agree whether a coin looks nice or is ugly.

EDIT- For example here is the one I posted in the other thread.

Do you think this coin is worth a premium?

How the heck should I know?

TomB

@Estil said:

@gumby1234 said:

@Estil said:
Indeed, like if I get toned coins while CRHing, how do I know if it's the kind that people pay extra money for and the ones that no one really cares about?

If the coin looks amazing or even really nice from the toning it might bring a premium. If it looks ugly then probably wont. In another recent thread I posted one of mine and there are other peoples coins with toning there. Look and see which ones have more eye appeal to you and you will have your answer.

But that all depends on how the potential buyer thinks the coin looks, not what I think. I personally don't like rusted/dirty looking coins, like how they can end up looking in those old fashioned mint/proof sets from the 40s/50s that only came on those cardboard thingies...

I don't typically like mint state coins that appear rusted or dirty, either. If toning and/or its attraction is something you simply can't grasp then it is easy to stay away from that niche. Heck, I see and feel no pull for the CRH threads and believe it is a tremendous waste of time and resources (ripping the paper and boxes apart to search through thousands upon thousands of coins) but if someone who is knowledgeable wants to do it I say go ahead and knock yourself out.

jesbroken

BTW, I easily found the 55d Washington Quarter that I sent in several years back along with the Franlin. I'll try to find the Franklin tomorrow, just to show the same toning/tarnishing. lol
Jim

TomB

If the 1955-D WQ looks in-hand like it does on my monitor then I grade that "unappealing". In my experience, when I see a common coin that has no, or limited, eye appeal then I don't think twice about simply moving on and giving it no more of my time.

jesbroken

I would never have purchased these coins, as I said they were a gift from a treasured friend on this forum and I will keep them. Not in any way saying this toning/tarnishing is attractive, not at all. Just a question regarding how to grade through the tarnish. I have the same problem with gorgeous colorful red/green/blue ms68 coins that I cannot fathom how a grade was determined. That is the crux of my post and it became a discussion of how ugly coins can be. Sorry.
Jim

TomB

I'll take a stab at your 1955-D WQ with how I described my strategy in my first thread in this post.

Do I see wear? No? Then it's MS-something. From that point I'd look at the surfaces (without consideration of luster or toning) just like I would look at the surfaces of any lightly or untoned coin. That will give me an approximate grade. Then the attractiveness (or unattractiveness) of the toning will be added to how I view the grade and what type of luster shines through (or is impeded) will affect the grade, as well.

Your images are out of focus, but the reverse appears to be nicer than an MS64, which (if the obverse is similarly clean) likely means that in-hand the graders thought the toning was a negative factor on the grade and/or the luster was sufficiently muted on the obverse to warrant a lower grade. If you showed this coin without the grade attached I would likely have guessed MS63 or MS64.

Estil

@TomB said:

@Estil said:

@gumby1234 said:

@Estil said:
Indeed, like if I get toned coins while CRHing, how do I know if it's the kind that people pay extra money for and the ones that no one really cares about?

If the coin looks amazing or even really nice from the toning it might bring a premium. If it looks ugly then probably wont. In another recent thread I posted one of mine and there are other peoples coins with toning there. Look and see which ones have more eye appeal to you and you will have your answer.

But that all depends on how the potential buyer thinks the coin looks, not what I think. I personally don't like rusted/dirty looking coins, like how they can end up looking in those old fashioned mint/proof sets from the 40s/50s that only came on those cardboard thingies...

I don't typically like mint state coins that appear rusted or dirty, either. If toning and/or its attraction is something you simply can't grasp then it is easy to stay away from that niche. Heck, I see and feel no pull for the CRH threads and believe it is a tremendous waste of time and resources (ripping the paper and boxes apart to search through thousands upon thousands of coins) but if someone who is knowledgeable wants to do it I say go ahead and knock yourself out.

But if I could sell them to ones that would pay a premium for them I could use the money for the things I want like mint/proof sets and 90s silver eagles/maples for example.

TomB

@Estil said:

@TomB said:

@Estil said:

@gumby1234 said:

@Estil said:
Indeed, like if I get toned coins while CRHing, how do I know if it's the kind that people pay extra money for and the ones that no one really cares about?

If the coin looks amazing or even really nice from the toning it might bring a premium. If it looks ugly then probably wont. In another recent thread I posted one of mine and there are other peoples coins with toning there. Look and see which ones have more eye appeal to you and you will have your answer.

But that all depends on how the potential buyer thinks the coin looks, not what I think. I personally don't like rusted/dirty looking coins, like how they can end up looking in those old fashioned mint/proof sets from the 40s/50s that only came on those cardboard thingies...

I don't typically like mint state coins that appear rusted or dirty, either. If toning and/or its attraction is something you simply can't grasp then it is easy to stay away from that niche. Heck, I see and feel no pull for the CRH threads and believe it is a tremendous waste of time and resources (ripping the paper and boxes apart to search through thousands upon thousands of coins) but if someone who is knowledgeable wants to do it I say go ahead and knock yourself out.

But if I could sell them to ones that would pay a premium for them I could use the money for the things I want like mint/proof sets and 90s silver eagles/maples for example.

If you really want to use toned coinage as a vehicle to purchase other items then you should invest the time and effort into understanding this niche of the broader market. You may not like the coins, but if you understand what others basically desire or want then you can use this area to help you flip profits. This board is overflowing with information about what folks like in toning and has likely tens of thousands of examples of what gets people to pay a premium. Unless you are color blind, which I am not throwing out there as an insult, it's up to you to take advantage of this resource and to work to gain the benefit.

Connecticoin

1955 Mint Set coins have toning only a mother could love. Back around 2005 when I was actively collecting Washington quarters, I had a couple from a '55 Mint Set graded and was thrilled when they graded 66, a time when fugly coins more easily got into high grade holders.

Fast forward to now, and I realized they were just downright fugly, and I unloaded the pair for $37 on ebay.

Connecticoin

@gumby1234 said:
@Estil True, but most people will agree whether a coin looks nice or is ugly.

EDIT- For example here is the one I posted in the other thread.

Do you think this coin is worth a premium?

Yes, and I suspect that coin came out of a Wayte Raymond board and not out of a 1955 Mint Set.

ricko

@jesbroken ... I can understand your question in the OP. Heavy, dark tarnish such as those coins, certainly adds an extra element to the grading process. That being said, the methods remain the same (as @TomB described above). Both good (i.e. luster) and bad (hairlines) can be concealed by heavy tarnish. I just avoid tarnished coins. A muted shade on older coins, or that called 'circ cam', will be ok, but nothing more. Cheers, RickO