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Paging Seated Quarter experts- Help me identify the date on this holed early San Francisco quarter..

NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 24, 2022 4:54PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I saw a low grade/cull 3 seated quarter lot listed on ebay for $20. I noticed one of the coins was a no motto early S mint quarter, so I knew it was pre-1866. From looking at pcgs coin facts and comparing the mint mark placement I believe it's a 1855-S or 1862-S. Can anyone confirm that or have any other guesses. Thanks!

As for the other 2 coins, one is a no motto quarter and the other is an 1857 poor1 slick quarter. I'll post that one later.

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    rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2022 5:34PM

    Possibly 1855-S with the way the mintmark is snug up against the arrow feathers, but wow, you can't even tell if it's an Arrows Obverse with this much wear.

    Link to PCGS image of an 1855-S in MS65:

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,993 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rhedden said:
    Possibly 1855-S with the way the mintmark is snug up against the arrow feathers, but wow, you can't even tell if it's an Arrows Obverse with this much wear.

    Link to PCGS image of an 1855-S in MS65:

    >
    Yup definitely a "Wagon train" find of its day lol

    Here's the 1862-S PCGS image.

    These were the only two dates in which thought were close candidates. Like you pointed out how the mintmark is snug against the arrow. Also, the distance and placement of mintmark to the R in quart. and D in dollar.

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    yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,627 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Using the Briggs book, I believe these dates have S mintmark positions that are feasible:
    1855-S Briggs-2C
    1857-S Briggs-2C

    The 1861-S and 1862-S mint mark positions look too low to match your coin.

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,993 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:
    Using the Briggs book, I believe these dates have S mintmark positions that are feasible:
    1855-S Briggs-2C
    1857-S Briggs-2C

    The 1861-S and 1862-S mint mark positions look too low to match your coin.

    Thank you yosclimber for looking that up. Does the Briggs book mention anything about the tail dies being reused for the following years? Thank you.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinJP... Wow... That is a tough one. Based on the pictures of the MM, I am thinking it is most like the 1855. Cheers, RickO

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    yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,627 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinJP said:

    @yosclimber said:
    Using the Briggs book, I believe these dates have S mintmark positions that are feasible:
    1855-S Briggs-2C
    1857-S Briggs-2C

    The 1861-S and 1862-S mint mark positions look too low to match your coin.

    Thank you yosclimber for looking that up. Does the Briggs book mention anything about the tail dies being reused for the following years? Thank you.

    It does not identify S tail dies in 1856, 1857 or 1858 as being reused from prior years.

    It does mention some reuse in early years.
    For example, for 1841-O it states:

    REV. A - Late state of 1840-O With Drapery - Rev. C.

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i think something like this for all known marriges is really the only way to be 100% certain, unless some other secondary pup is found. i looked at the claws, shaft, arrow feather tips etc. but the mm, in that area, seemed to be the best bet.

    this is just a sample.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    now that i've thought about it for a bit, i think a link touching the bottom of the arrow and the bottom of the twig would be best, to compensate for rotated and different dimension images.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,627 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2022 4:46PM

    I am a big fan of drawing a vertical and horizontal line from fixed points of reference on the coin photo,
    and then seeing where the mint mark is positioned relative to those lines.
    This a technique that I borrowed from Gerry Fortin's Seated Dime attribution guide, and I use it on seated half dimes.
    The two lines create 4 areas called quadrants, so you can describe the mm as "high, left" or maybe "slightly high, center", etc.
    A few months ago, I tried this technique to identify reverses on die pairs of the 1841-O seated quarter.


    Here are the fixed points of reference used to place the lines,
    and the points used for cropping mm photos.
    The fixed points for the horizontal line are also used to rotate the image prior to drawing the lines.


    Here is the resulting array of mint mark positions (for 1841-O).

    I didn't try this on the 1855-S or 1857-S but it could be done.

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,993 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    i think something like this for all known marriges is really the only way to be 100% certain, unless some other secondary pup is found. i looked at the claws, shaft, arrow feather tips etc. but the mm, in that area, seemed to be the best bet.

    this is just a sample.

    Thanks for taking time to do that. Yes I think that is a good way to pinpoint the possible date.

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,993 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:
    I am a big fan of drawing a vertical and horizontal line from fixed points of reference on the coin photo,
    and then seeing where the mint mark is positioned relative to those lines.
    This a technique that I borrowed from Gerry Fortin's Seated Dime attribution guide, and I use it on seated half dimes.
    The two lines create 4 areas called quadrants, so you can describe the mm as "high, left" or maybe "slightly high, center", etc.
    A few months ago, I tried this technique to identify reverses on die pairs of the 1841-O seated quarter.


    Here are the fixed points of reference used to place the lines,
    and the points used for cropping mm photos.
    The fixed points for the horizontal line are also used to rotate the image prior to drawing the lines.


    Here is the resulting array of mint mark positions (for 1841-O).

    I didn't try this on the 1855-S or 1857-S but it could be done.

    Yes will try that. I'm going to take some better pictures of it first. These were cell pics.

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