Best Way to Handle eBay Coin Charge Backs
Project Numismatics
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Wanted to get the opinion from some of the more experienced eBay sellers here. I sold a $360 PCGS coin on 8/3 which USPS shows as delivered 8/8 to Maryland. The buyer left positive feedback. Today, the buyer filed a charge back with their credit company company for "charge not recognized". The charge back is outside of the eBay dispute process. The buyer has not responded to my message asking for a description of the problem and reason for the charge back.
I have read on the eBay forums that these charge backs from buyers nearly impossible to win and are a common scam. Buyer has 1,700+ feedback and has been a member since 2002. It appears that the buyer used to sell coins themselves.
If I do lose, can I file a police report in Maryland and have PCGS mark the coin as stolen? The coin is a modern that if cracked out would lose most of it's value. Has anyone tried small claims court from afar? Hate to jump to these type of potential resolutions, but it feels like a scam.
Comments
The charge card company should ask you for proof of delivery. They will ask the buyer if they received anything from you. When you provide proof of delivery they will ask the buyer to return it. If they don't return it you should not lose.
At least that is what my experience has been.
I'm curious. I know nothing about this, but assume that the "buyer" didn't pay you for the coin, but rather paid eBay and eBay paid you. Thus he filed the chargeback against eBay. Is that right? How does eBay proceed in these cases? I doubt you'll get directly involved with the credit card company in any event.
I assume things have become different under Managed Payments.
If the eBay payment went thru the guys credit card company he can go thru them and do the chargeback. eBay is then out of it and you deal with the credit card company.
Yes - this is what is happening. eBay has not asked for proof of delivery. I suspect because the charge back reason is for unrecognized charge rather than no delivery and the USPS delivery status which can be seen through eBay shows delivered.
It still usually goes through ebay otherwise how did the credit card company know who you are?
I sold a coin in November of last year for $80. In February, the buyer filed a charge back for "unauthorized use". Ebay contacted me to tell me that the credit card company would handle it and ebay would stay out of the way, but I had my seller protection. A couple months later, the credit card company ruled in my favor and that was the end of it.
I would contact ebay and see what they know. Since they processed the payment they have to be in the loop, although they do not interfere with the cc company who has the lead.
This is out and out fraud. Talk to ebay and your credit card on their procedure.
Wow, this is really interesting for my standpoint. I guess because this is a reason why I don't sell on eBay. It's just unbelievable how much work people put in to devious things just to get something free. I hope you get your money back sounds like you're in the right, good luck
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
When a payment is made thru eBay and charged to your credit card and the buyer files a dispute with his credit card company eBay is out of it. Their credit card company takes over. You may still communicate with eBay but the credit card company has the decision power, not eBay.
I've done 80,000 transactions with few problems and I've never lost money except for a bounced check 20 years ago. The amount of ebay fraud is grossly overstated.
Just curious, as this has never happened to me. How does the cc company know who you (the seller) are, and how to contact you? The charge is to eBay, not to you personally, right?
Or does eBay automatically hand over your name and contact info to the cc company every time a charge is processed through eBay?
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
If the seller has eBay managed payments, how would eBay be out of the loop on a charge back? On managed payments the seller get a direct deposit from eBay into their banking account and does not deal with the credit card company. If the seller lost the pay back dispute eBay would have to take the money from the seller's banking account.
@jmlanzaf - good to know.
Just to be clear, eBay’s message said they had submitted info to the CC company and eBay did not ask me for any info.
I have no way of knowing who the CC company is or of contacting them - it’s all through eBay.
My concern is that the CC will rule in the buyers favor but I’m hoping that eBay’s seller protection kicks in. I have read stories where eBay’s protection did not kick in and the Seller was out both the item and the money - that’s my concern.
It should. You'll be fine.
They aren't out of the loop. They just defer to the CC company.
Is the buyers feedback 100%? I know you said the buyer hasn't responded to you but I wonder if a significant other didn't recognize the charge and reported it unauthorized. Crazier things have happened. Just a thought.
All buyers have 100% feedback because you can't leave negative feedback for buyers.
When the dispute goes to credit card company they decide who wins, not eBay is what I am saying
Haven't sold on ebay for years. How long has that been going? lol
Looked it up. Since 2008 lol
ebay fights on your behalf providing CC company with all pertinent information. Final decision however is with CC company. In event CC company rules for other party you are free to attempt to invoke your seller protection with ebay if all of your ducks are in a row. In this case ebay eats the loss.
If buyer is saying he did not receive coin then it is now stolen property and should be reported/treated as such. Keep an eye out for it on ebay.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Please let us know how it is resolved. Thanks.
The "stolen property" conclusion could be incorrect, but at this time, it's premature.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Scary. Never had that happen. Been on bay 20 plus years.
I have a big ticket coin considering taking off eBay just having it at shows due to fear of scammers. Have never had somebody successfully scam me on the bay.
17 years on Ebay as a seller here as well. Thousands of transactions, very very few bad ones. Outside of 2 times when the buyer claimed I sent them an empty package, I have not experienced anywhere near the level of fraud some claim.
I feel that if eBay forces you to use their managed payments, where the buyer pays eBay then eBay pays the seller, when a CC dispute arrises it should fall on eBay's lap and not the seller. Every time I buy something on eBay, my payment is to eBay and not the seller. eBay should not get to have the cake and eat it too. That's one of the reasons for the fees that a seller is charged for.
the buyer of the coin is claiming unauthorized charge. Who ever holds the coin now (including the buyer) is holding a coin that (according to the buyer) was obtained fraudulently. Fraudulently obtained coin is a stolen coin.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
The buyer could have made an honest, albeit sloppy mistake, the account could be hijacked or other. I'll stick with labeling your legal conclusion, premature.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Quick update - buyer messaged me saying he didn’t receive the coin but referred to it as a Morgan dollar rather than the Peace dollar that it was. Said the post office often confuses his address. I replied to clarify the coin in question and he admitted he received the Peace dollar I sold to him. However he has not agreed to stop the charge back and says he’s “confused” and doesn’t understand how this happened.
I feel better now that he has admitted in writing to receiving the coin I sold him but still don’t understand why he filed a charge back. His communication is very garbled - the entire interaction feels strange and off.
More to come…
don't stress out, eBay etiquette is to buy something from that guy or someone else of about the same value and then do your own chargeback in a few months, they call it chargeback hot potato
Although it now appears the buyer made an honest, albeit sloppy mistake, until the buyer removes his claim of "unauthorized charge" for the coin, the buyer is declaring the coin was fraudulently obtained. As long as a coin has been declared fraudulently obtained, even if in error, it remains, to the rest of the world, a coin that has been stolen.
As an example, if the buyer does in fact have the coin in question in hand and he does not remove his claim of a fraudulent charge for the coin and subsequently gets reimbursed the CC charge for the coin he now holds, does he not now have a stolen coin?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I had a similar case once. His wife signed for the package and he didn't know it. He dropped the case one he learned that.
FWIW, that's why I prefer to do business through ebay while using credit cards. That gives both parties access to resources to sort these things out. Good luck if you PP F&F and there's a problem.
Let this dirtbag know if he doesn't drop the fraudulent chargeback you'll out him on every coin forum.
Your posts make it sound like you’re determined to declare the coin stolen, rather than first seeing if or how the situation gets resolved.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Does the buyer not know that you have proof of delivery? That p.o.d. should weight heavy in your favor. Peace Roy
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C'mon, Mark. You've been here long enough to know that everything is a "scam". Innocent mistakes just don't happen.
It's a scam, Mark. Don't believe it.
The only thing that matters in this case is where the item was delivered. If the item was delivered to the address on record with the credit card company, then you will win the dispute. If the item was delivered to an address not associated with the credit card, then there could be unauthorized use.
It is also possible that the buyer can't afford his credit card bill and doesn't want to pay interest, so he filed the unrecognized charge claim to buy some time to pay.
Not accusing anyone of a scam, further provided details indicate it was an innocent mistake. Simply pointing out that as long as the coin being discussed has an outstanding CC claim that it's purchase was "unauthorized," holder of the coin has a hot coin until CC claim is resolved or cancelled. It's simple: the CC claim making an item's purchase unauthorized means that the item was fraudulently purchased in the eyes of the credit card company. At a high enough value the CC company is likely to pursue legal recourse and/or have a police report filed.
The open CC claim is what makes the coin temporarily hot. It does not matter if there was no fraud intended. Fraud has been claimed and remains claimed until resolved with the CC company.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I never said the coin was stolen. I stated that the buyer insinuated the coin was stolen when he filed the "unauthorized purchase" claim
I simply pointed out that the buyer said the coin and the funds used to purchase it were stolen when he notified his CC company of an unauthorized purchase. Hopefully he will correct his wrong, cancel his CC claim, and make ownership of the coin valid in the eyes of the CC company and any law enforcement that may or may not have been brought into the picture.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I apologize if I misunderstood or mischaracterized your take on the subject.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I probably could have done a better job presenting my take. LOL
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Wow! We have many that jump off the deep end right away.
First, it is a “charge not recognized”. This happens from time to time especially if one is making a lot of purchases.
I had a “charge not recognized” filed against me on June 17. When I looked at my selling history, not only did it show delivered but the buyer had also left me positive feedback. eBay handled everything with the cc company. I finally received a resolved message on August 21. It took 2 months but I wasn’t worried.
Don’t worry until there is something to worry about.
Joe.
Actual difference between "unauthorized purchase" and "charge not recognized" other than the wording?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Yes. When I saw a charge for over $300 for an auto parts store that I know I did not purchase, I filed an unauthorized charge. At that point, the cc company cancelled my cc and issued a new one.
However, sometimes the info on the credit card statement isn’t enough to let one know exactly what it is so in that case I file a charge not recognized. So the cc company gave me more info which I recognized as a charge I actually made and they did not have to replace my cc.
Joe.
I never, never pay with a credit card and never have. I have noticed with many sellers lately when closing out a sale, it says seller does not take yadayada cards, which I use only paypal/bankaccount.
Just out of curiosity, for those of you who have been in such a situation as this. What if they buyer pays via Paypal with a credit card on their site, do they not get involved either?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Since the buyerleft positive feedback wonder if that is taken into account in the decision or not?
Agreed!
Anyway, I'm guessing the OP hasn't yet received an email, like this:
In my case, I called ebay and I was assured there was nothing to worry about: Ebay had USPS tracking info showing the package was delivered, and the Buyer had posted a positive review for me, citing quick delivery & that she was very pleased with the item.
it took 10 weeks to resolve in my favor. In the meantime, I don't know of anything you can do to speed the process.
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Using a credit card to pay via paypal has all the protection of paypal plus added buyer protection from CC company plus you earn CC rebate points.
I always use a credit card to cover my paypal purchases.
In the event of a buyer filing a charge back with the CC he used to pay via paypal, paypal will represent you in discussion with the credit card company and fight your case but CC ultimately makes decision.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Thanks, derryb. I have credit cards listed on my Paypal account, I just have never used them. I have a small debit card account that I use soley on the internet and Paypal.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The credit card company has priority. Neither PayPal nor eBay nor anyone ends will get in their way. Of course, you also get a second bite at the apple with PayPal or Ebay seller guarantee.
If you aren't paying with a credit card and could, you are costing yourself hundreds of dollars per year and adding risk to all of your transactions.