Humans pulled a large percentage of the silver before 1968 A.D. I worked in Publix and the cashiers and office pulled everything they could for me. It was less than a dollar face a week. Folk freaked about assassination, folk freaked out by floridated water, folk still freaked by the gold deal thirty years earlier sucked the silver out by the end of 1965. My extended family reminded each other to save the silver. When the economy gets tight silver comes out, I sold my accumulated silver in the gas lines of 1973-4, and in 1984 probably because I had a thirteen-and-a-half percent mortgage loan. Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
I started collecting as a kid in the early 70s by looking through change and coin roll hunting. Even then, silver was not found very often and finding a silver dime or quarter was a big deal.
I've been checking my change (and families change when i was young) and occasionally search rolls since 1970-71. There was never a time period were finding silver was common.
You seem to think it was common in the pre2000s. Trust me, it was not. About the only way to find any silver back then was to search half dollars from the bank and even that could be frustrating.
So even when silver was all the way down to $5ish/oz people knew not to spend them!
That's right. Right under our nose. 95% copper pennies made in 1982 and before. When they become legal to melt, and they will become legal to melt someday in the not distant future, your 1981 penny that you spent instead of saving will fetch the savvy saver of the 1981 penny a nickel given that the saver has a little patience and doesn't bail at the first offer of 2 cents for his 1981 penny.
You heard it here first.
Don't forget that in Canada they spent the past ten years trying to take pennies out of circulation...YES you can still spend them but when banks get them they're supposed to turn them into the Mint to be retired/destroyed. So if like you said there does come a point when enough people DO melt down pre-1982 pennies that will make them even scarcer.
People are comparing apples and oranges. Silver is approx $18 an ounce, copper is approx $0.20 an ounce. Huge price difference makes silver worth keeping
@3stars said:
People are comparing apples and oranges. Silver is approx $18 an ounce, copper is approx $0.20 an ounce. Huge price difference makes silver worth keeping
The historic high for copper was just in March of this year: $5.02 per pound. There are about 145 copper cents to a pound. So earlier this year, each cent was worth approximately 3.5x their face value.
By comparison, the price of silver didn't really move above $3 per ounce until 1973. That's literally a decade after everyone and their uncle scrambled to remove every single silver dime and quarter they could from change. At that point, a silver dime was worth about 2.5x its face value. And remember that silver dropped pretty hard after the 80s Hunt Brothers run up. For example, in 1992 the low was just $3.67 per ounce. So as recently as 1992, when everyone would have been thrilled to find a silver dime in change, that dime was only "worth" about 3x face.
Yet people are scoffing at saving copper cents that were worth 3.5 times face just 6 months ago?
I'm saving my copper cents.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
I started coin collecting with ABE when I was 10 or 12. Where are all our grandkids going to get these coins if someone doesn't save them for their 1st collection? Sure i save cents and nickels, pretty soon any coin from the 60's will be just parking lot PMD, if you can find them. Coin collecting is a hobby, PASS IT ON.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
@JBK said:
I don't get it - you're comparing silver's 50-year low to copper's all-time high to show how similar the premiums are. 🤔
I'd be delighted to spell it out for those who "don't get it".
I was giving two full years of data from the last 50 when silver was worth as little as 2.5x face but when everyone hoarded silver coins. Copper is currently worth about 2.5x face--way off from its high earlier this year. But people are rejecting the idea.
Here's some additional interesting data. Annual silver price per ounce:
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
@Weiss said:
Yet people are scoffing at saving copper cents that were worth 3.5 times face just 6 months ago?
You can sell silver coins to just about any coin shop in the country and to more businesses online than you can count for a price based on current silver spot. Can you sell copper cents with the same ease?
@JBK said:
I don't get it - you're comparing silver's 50-year low to copper's all-time high to show how similar the premiums are. 🤔
I'd be delighted to spell it out for those who "don't get it".
I was giving two full years of data from the last 50 when silver was worth as little as 2.5x face but when everyone hoarded silver coins. Copper is currently worth about 2.5x face--way off from its high earlier this year. But people are rejecting the idea.
Here's some additional interesting data. Annual silver price per ounce:
It's still a poor comparison.
Silver is worth significantly more than copper and always will be. Silver is a "precious metal", copper is not. Silver coins are valued as-is, and also easily refined or re-alloyed (to Sterling, for example), while the often stated "bullion" value of the cent is an unrealistic calculation of it's refined components.
There is an active market for silver coins as bullion, but the same cannot be said for copper cents.
If you want to save copper cents, go ahead and do it. Personally, I save any undamaged copper cents that I find.
However, no one should be under any illusions about the upside potential.
And, people need to consider the tremendous opportunity cost of hoarding copper cents. Sure, it's fun to think about how much a found or forgotten hoard of copper cents might be worth, but the lost investment opportunities would have been worth so much more.
Silver is worth significantly more than copper and always will be. Silver is a "precious metal", copper is not. Silver coins are valued as-is, and also easily refined or re-alloyed (to Sterling, for example), while the often stated "bullion" value of the cent is an unrealistic calculation of it's refined components.
>
And, people need to consider the tremendous opportunity cost of hoarding copper cents. Sure. It's fun to think about how much a found or forgotten hoard of copper cents might be worth, but the lost investment opportunities would have been worth so much more.
These 2 points are extremely important
Unless people start trading barrels of cents it will always be an industrial metal that needs to be refined into a useable alloy. And that costs money. I see trading cents as a commodity as being impractical due to the weight needed to make the trades feasible. In order to sustain a a market like silver coins, there needs to be large volumes moved. That would be barrels and barrels of cents just to make a market so you can trade your 10 pounds without having it refined. I just don't see that market developing with all of the logistics required
And don't forget opportunity costs. You are continually losing money to inflation and not having your money in other investments that have historically made money. If you really want to say you can make money saving cents, you absolutely have to consider the lost value of them sitting in storage until a market develops. I don't hear the Copper Cent proponents addressing this
As others have said, if you want to save copper cents, go ahead. It's your money to do with as you please. If you want to save copper cents to make a profit in the future, it may not be so simple. And if you are advising others that saving copper cents is a great way to make money, especially without addressing all of the issues.....well, that's just irresponsible in my opinion.
Based on my change pile, I get about 10 to 15 pennies a week in change. Out of those, there seems to be around 2 or 3 that are pre '82. So let's say 2 out of 10. After a year of setting those aside, I'd have a little over 100 copper pennies saved up. Suppose the melt value of a penny is 3 cents, That's for pure copper, which these pennies aren't, so there will be refining costs. As well, whoever you sell to is going to want to make something on the deal, so let's say you can find somebody who will pay 2 cents each for them. Your cost is 1 cent, leaving you a profit of about a buck for the year.
You've doubled your money but clearly, just saving pennies out of your change isn't practical in any sense if you're interested in profiting from your efforts. It'll be necessary to actively search these copper pennies out. How will that go? Let's see...
The plan will be to look through one $50 bag/box of pennies, five days a week. If you sort through them by checking dates at one coin per second, that would be 50 seconds/roll. When you add in the time to unroll and reroll the coins, let's just say 1 minute per roll, 100 minutes per bag/box. Add 10 minutes for each trip to and from the bank and you're up to two hours a day. At a rate of 2 copper pennies out of 10, you'll end up with 1000 copper pennies which you can sell for $20. Subtracting your cost for the pennies, you're at $10. Two and a half miles to the bank twice a day is 25 miles a week, at 25mpg that's a gallon of gas that costs $5. Subtracting that, your net profit is $5.
@3stars said:
People are comparing apples and oranges. Silver is approx $18 an ounce, copper is approx $0.20 an ounce. Huge price difference makes silver worth keeping
The historic high for copper was just in March of this year: $5.02 per pound. There are about 145 copper cents to a pound. So earlier this year, each cent was worth approximately 3.5x their face value.
By comparison, the price of silver didn't really move above $3 per ounce until 1973. That's literally a decade after everyone and their uncle scrambled to remove every single silver dime and quarter they could from change. At that point, a silver dime was worth about 2.5x its face value. And remember that silver dropped pretty hard after the 80s Hunt Brothers run up. For example, in 1992 the low was just $3.67 per ounce. So as recently as 1992, when everyone would have been thrilled to find a silver dime in change, that dime was only "worth" about 3x face.
Yet people are scoffing at saving copper cents that were worth 3.5 times face just 6 months ago?
I'm saving my copper cents.
So, assuming copper cents and silver dimes are worth 3x each at some point in time, 1 kg of dimes would be worth $120. To get that value in cents, you'd need to have 12.44 kg of them. Yes, it might be worth saving your cents, but they are just so darn heavy!
That's right. Right under our nose. 95% copper pennies made in 1982 and before. When they become legal to melt, and they will become legal to melt someday in the not distant future, your 1981 penny that you spent instead of saving will fetch the savvy saver of the 1981 penny a nickel given that the saver has a little patience and doesn't bail at the first offer of 2 cents for his 1981 penny.
You heard it here first.
Don't forget that in Canada they spent the past ten years trying to take pennies out of circulation...YES you can still spend them but when banks get them they're supposed to turn them into the Mint to be retired/destroyed. So if like you said there does come a point when enough people DO melt down pre-1982 pennies that will make them even scarcer.
Really? Where can you spend them in Canada today? The past several years every place I've shopped in Canada the cent is largely notional. It is collected on electronic payments, but when you pay cash they round to the nearest 5¢.
Really? Where can you spend them in Canada today? The past several years every place I've shopped in Canada the cent is largely notional. It is collected on electronic payments, but when you pay cash they round to the nearest 5¢.
I mean if you are paying in cash and have Canadian pennies you can spend them. They are still legal tender.
As a hobby - have at it, as a business model not so good. You could get one of those copper cent sorters - I've never used one but they have been mentioned in previous threads which would speed up the sort. You also could get a better source of coins in bags rather than rolls which would help speed up things and increase your potential profit margin. I suspect in the end you'll end up where the rest of us that did this for a while did and cash out or perhaps you'll fill a closet or two with a few thousand bucks worth. It's all fun but if they ever did open the door to melting the cents I can guarantee you wouldn't be alone in saving those pennies and many here would start tucking them away and for anyone short on cash and lacking employment they might go whole hog at it until they found an easier way to make money.
The cent sorting machine was called a Ryedale, I believe.
The machine's maker was probably the only one who made money back during the copper cent frenzy a decade or two ago.
I has always heard that during the gold rushes of the 19th century the smartest guys were the ones who sold the picks and shovels to all the gold seekers.
Well odds are you are MUCH better off financially than I am if you can afford to own enough land to have a barn! I don't know why so many people here are so hung up over the idea you have to melt down the pennies...we don't melt down constitutional silver coins right? And they're "only" 90% silver, right?
Actually, a lot of constitutional silver has been melted, especially during the early 1980's. I do not know if any is being melted at the current time but it is legal to do so. It may not be legal for a great number of years yet to melt down copper coins. You would need an awful lot of pennies to make any kind of a profit. To me, not worth it, BUT, I have been wrong before. In the end it is your decision, so do what you want. I would rather buy silver.
So wouldn't I. And I have in fact bought as much silver as I can afford...only trouble is that it's not much So I can only hope that silver stays cheap long enough so I can get the main silver coins I want. Not just the ones on my wishlist but also the 90s silver eagles and silver maples as well.
But that's no fun for me. I like the kind of collectibles where you try to get all the years you can. And in the case of silver coins, I still don't have any Franklin or Walking Liberty halves so it's not like I don't still have plenty to do in those regards.
Listen, I know some of you may think me saving copper pennies is a joke. But besides buying some silver (I can't afford that much but it's better than nothing) while hopefully it stays cheapish I can't really afford to "invest" in much of anything else. It just would be nice for once to be ahead of the curve on something. And again, as long as I get them on face value I can't lose.
@Estil said:
It just would be nice for once to be ahead of the curve on something. And again, as long as I get them on face value I can't lose.
If you want to hoard copper then by all means do it.
But I just don't understand your reasoning.
"Ahead of the curve"
People hoarded copper cents around 15 years ago. Most of those people eventually gave up and dumped their hoards back into circulation.
"As long as I get them at face value I can't lose"
No offense, but have you not read the repeated references in this thread to "opportunity cost" and inflation? You can lose.
A common theme in your threads and responses is that you can't afford various things. Building wealth and opportunity is based on sound financial decisions.
Let's say that you have $20 to spend on roll searching. If you set your sites on copper cents then after searching enough rolls and continually recycling your rejects back into new rolls you will eventually end up with your $20 tied up in copper cents. That's a dead end.
Instead, why not churn your $20 over and over and only save the truly worthwhile coins? Or, find someone else who wants to hoard copper and sell him your copper cents. Even if you get two cents per coin then you can double your money. Keep doing this and your $20 can be grown into more and more money.
The above scenarios are somewhat hypothetical, but hopefully the point is made.
I suspect that in the end you'll just hoard copper, thinking it's the poor man's silver.
Good luck with it. Hopefully you'll atleast have some fun.
P.S. - I find far more silver in the Coinstar reject slots than I do in the occsssional quarter roll searches that I do.
P.S. - I find far more silver in the Coinstar reject slots than I do in the occsssional quarter roll searches that I do.
I do that too when I get the chance. No luck so far.
Keep at it. It's usually empty, but occasionally I find a stray silver dime or two. And once I hit the jackpot with about $14 face value in silver dimes and quarters. 😀
Keep at it. It's usually empty, but occasionally I find a stray silver dime or two. And once I hit the jackpot with about $14 face value in silver dimes and quarters. 😀
That sure might cross off a few on my wishlist below!
Case for a nickel apiece (~ $8/lb) copper pennies:
A cleaner, decarbonized economy simply cannot happen without more copper. Consider that an electric vehicle uses 200 pounds of it — four times more than a gas-powered vehicle. Solar panels contain 5.5 tons of copper per megawatt. Wind farms require it, as do the components in energy storage units.
The challenge is simply that we don’t have enough copper supply globally, or in the United States — not even close. The United States is a net importer of copper and has a major copper deficit that grows every year. The clean energy future has a mineral roadblock, and if we are going to stay on the road toward a clean energy future, there’s no alternative route.
Goldman Sachs has called the situation “a molecule crisis” and concluded that without more copper the clean energy economy simply “will not happen.” And unlike a knowledge-based workforce that can migrate with opportunity, minerals are place-bound.
But they're just pennies. Forget the art. There has been historically no respect for the penny among some who dare call themselves art collectors because of the lowly denomination that it is. So it follows that the copper rich penny gets no respect from the same for containing the valuable commodity that it does.
Look for copper pennies becoming legal to melt and the price of copper to skyrocket one of these days. Copper baby! Believe it!
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
@mr1874 said:
Goldman Sachs has called the situation “a molecule crisis” and concluded that without more copper the clean energy economy simply “will not happen.”
You need a lot more than just more copper. Spoiler alert... it's not happening.
@mr1874 said:
Goldman Sachs has called the situation “a molecule crisis” and concluded that without more copper the clean energy economy simply “will not happen.”
You need a lot more than just more copper. Spoiler alert... it's not happening.
Do you care to expand on your statement?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
You said it: "The clean energy future has a mineral roadblock, and if we are going to stay on the road toward a clean energy future, there’s no alternative route."
The resources required are not available. You can't get there from here.
@MasonG said:
You said it: "The clean energy future has a mineral roadblock, and if we are going to stay on the road toward a clean energy future, there’s no alternative route."
The resources required are not available. You can't get there from here.
I was just reading about that earlier this week. The raw materials can't be mined in the quantities necessary.
@mr1874 said:
Case for a nickel apiece (~ $8/lb) copper pennies:
A cleaner, decarbonized economy simply cannot happen without more copper. Consider that an electric vehicle uses 200 pounds of it — four times more than a gas-powered vehicle. Solar panels contain 5.5 tons of copper per megawatt. Wind farms require it, as do the components in energy storage units.
The challenge is simply that we don’t have enough copper supply globally, or in the United States — not even close. The United States is a net importer of copper and has a major copper deficit that grows every year. The clean energy future has a mineral roadblock, and if we are going to stay on the road toward a clean energy future, there’s no alternative route.
Goldman Sachs has called the situation “a molecule crisis” and concluded that without more copper the clean energy economy simply “will not happen.” And unlike a knowledge-based workforce that can migrate with opportunity, minerals are place-bound.
But they're just pennies. Forget the art. There has been historically no respect for the penny among some who dare call themselves art collectors because of the lowly denomination that it is. So it follows that the copper rich penny gets no respect from the same for containing the valuable commodity that it does.
Look for copper pennies becoming legal to melt and the price of copper to skyrocket one of these days. Copper baby! Believe it!
I believe that the future is bright for copper, but you're making a leap over a very inconvenient reality. The melt ban was put into place so millions or billions of cents would not disappear from circulation. Replacing them in a timely manner would be nearly impossible (and expensive).
The government could always recall them to melt them but they are presumably not impacted by the ban.
@mr1874 said:
Case for a nickel apiece (~ $8/lb) copper pennies:
A cleaner, decarbonized economy simply cannot happen without more copper. Consider that an electric vehicle uses 200 pounds of it — four times more than a gas-powered vehicle. Solar panels contain 5.5 tons of copper per megawatt. Wind farms require it, as do the components in energy storage units.
The challenge is simply that we don’t have enough copper supply globally, or in the United States — not even close. The United States is a net importer of copper and has a major copper deficit that grows every year. The clean energy future has a mineral roadblock, and if we are going to stay on the road toward a clean energy future, there’s no alternative route.
Goldman Sachs has called the situation “a molecule crisis” and concluded that without more copper the clean energy economy simply “will not happen.” And unlike a knowledge-based workforce that can migrate with opportunity, minerals are place-bound.
But they're just pennies. Forget the art. There has been historically no respect for the penny among some who dare call themselves art collectors because of the lowly denomination that it is. So it follows that the copper rich penny gets no respect from the same for containing the valuable commodity that it does.
Look for copper pennies becoming legal to melt and the price of copper to skyrocket one of these days. Copper baby! Believe it!
I believe that the future is bright for copper, but you're making a leap over a very inconvenient reality. The melt ban was put into place so millions or billions of cents would not disappear from circulation. Replacing them in a timely manner would be nearly impossible (and expensive).
The government could always recall them to melt them but they are presumably not impacted by the ban.
When the copper pennies are legal to melt to help provide copper to enable green energy production, that's when the thinking will begin to turn to the penny no longer be useful in ordinary commerce. Rounding up to the next nickel will be done, in other words. Currently about 25% of pennies in circulation are made of 95% copper. Short of rounding up to the next nickel I really don't see a coin shortage problem coming from melting copper pennies. The enormous mintages of zinkies (since 1982) aren't providing enough pennies for commerce?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Based on a time/value estimate, saving cents makes no sense (or cents). You can be much more productive just working for a minimum wage job rather than saving cents. Also with inflation, a cent has essentially $0.00 worth.
But if you want to save cents and enjoy it more power to you. Save every cent you find!
Ok, I make 6 figures working for a 175 year old Germen company and I collect copper cents and it's not a waste of time because I enjoy my hobby and love Lincolns, - and yes, I collect silver too, lots of it....
@Estil said:
Well apparently at least one major bullion dealer has gotten in on the act...
Are they buying? I took a quick look and couldn't tell.
Just the fact that they're even bothering selling copper pennies is a good sign that it would be smart to collect them out of penny rolls while you can still get them/find them for face value. If only one could still do that in terms of finding silver dimes/quarters...I probably have better odds of finding a four leaf clover or winning Pick 4 than finding a silver in a roll of dimes or quarters...but hey as long as you get the rolls at face value you can't lose!
@Estil said:
Just the fact that they're even bothering selling copper pennies is a good sign that it would be smart to collect them out of penny rolls while you can still get them/find them for face value.
@Estil said:
Just the fact that they're even bothering selling copper pennies is a good sign that it would be smart to collect them out of penny rolls while you can still get them/find them for face value.
Depends. What's your time worth? $2.50/hr.? More?
About the same amount of time the others here spend CRH. And in my case I can't afford to do very many though at least I can swap them out easily and quickly as I have a bank and credit union branch right next door to me.
Comments
Humans pulled a large percentage of the silver before 1968 A.D. I worked in Publix and the cashiers and office pulled everything they could for me. It was less than a dollar face a week. Folk freaked about assassination, folk freaked out by floridated water, folk still freaked by the gold deal thirty years earlier sucked the silver out by the end of 1965. My extended family reminded each other to save the silver. When the economy gets tight silver comes out, I sold my accumulated silver in the gas lines of 1973-4, and in 1984 probably because I had a thirteen-and-a-half percent mortgage loan. Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
So even when silver was all the way down to $5ish/oz people knew not to spend them!
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Don't forget that in Canada they spent the past ten years trying to take pennies out of circulation...YES you can still spend them but when banks get them they're supposed to turn them into the Mint to be retired/destroyed. So if like you said there does come a point when enough people DO melt down pre-1982 pennies that will make them even scarcer.
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
With all due respect, not my thing...
My YouTube Channel
I admire a man with commitment, remember the Ferrari and the briefcase of slabbed $20s too
this is badass
People are comparing apples and oranges. Silver is approx $18 an ounce, copper is approx $0.20 an ounce. Huge price difference makes silver worth keeping
Save all your pennies and score huge profits when zinc goes up in price, too.
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
The historic high for copper was just in March of this year: $5.02 per pound. There are about 145 copper cents to a pound. So earlier this year, each cent was worth approximately 3.5x their face value.
By comparison, the price of silver didn't really move above $3 per ounce until 1973. That's literally a decade after everyone and their uncle scrambled to remove every single silver dime and quarter they could from change. At that point, a silver dime was worth about 2.5x its face value. And remember that silver dropped pretty hard after the 80s Hunt Brothers run up. For example, in 1992 the low was just $3.67 per ounce. So as recently as 1992, when everyone would have been thrilled to find a silver dime in change, that dime was only "worth" about 3x face.
Yet people are scoffing at saving copper cents that were worth 3.5 times face just 6 months ago?
I'm saving my copper cents.
--Severian the Lame
I don't get it - you're comparing silver's 50-year low to copper's all-time high to show how similar the premiums are. 🤔
I started coin collecting with ABE when I was 10 or 12. Where are all our grandkids going to get these coins if someone doesn't save them for their 1st collection? Sure i save cents and nickels, pretty soon any coin from the 60's will be just parking lot PMD, if you can find them. Coin collecting is a hobby, PASS IT ON.
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members
I'd be delighted to spell it out for those who "don't get it".
I was giving two full years of data from the last 50 when silver was worth as little as 2.5x face but when everyone hoarded silver coins. Copper is currently worth about 2.5x face--way off from its high earlier this year. But people are rejecting the idea.
Here's some additional interesting data. Annual silver price per ounce:
--Severian the Lame
You can sell silver coins to just about any coin shop in the country and to more businesses online than you can count for a price based on current silver spot. Can you sell copper cents with the same ease?
It's still a poor comparison.
Silver is worth significantly more than copper and always will be. Silver is a "precious metal", copper is not. Silver coins are valued as-is, and also easily refined or re-alloyed (to Sterling, for example), while the often stated "bullion" value of the cent is an unrealistic calculation of it's refined components.
There is an active market for silver coins as bullion, but the same cannot be said for copper cents.
If you want to save copper cents, go ahead and do it. Personally, I save any undamaged copper cents that I find.
However, no one should be under any illusions about the upside potential.
And, people need to consider the tremendous opportunity cost of hoarding copper cents. Sure, it's fun to think about how much a found or forgotten hoard of copper cents might be worth, but the lost investment opportunities would have been worth so much more.
>
These 2 points are extremely important
Unless people start trading barrels of cents it will always be an industrial metal that needs to be refined into a useable alloy. And that costs money. I see trading cents as a commodity as being impractical due to the weight needed to make the trades feasible. In order to sustain a a market like silver coins, there needs to be large volumes moved. That would be barrels and barrels of cents just to make a market so you can trade your 10 pounds without having it refined. I just don't see that market developing with all of the logistics required
And don't forget opportunity costs. You are continually losing money to inflation and not having your money in other investments that have historically made money. If you really want to say you can make money saving cents, you absolutely have to consider the lost value of them sitting in storage until a market develops. I don't hear the Copper Cent proponents addressing this
As others have said, if you want to save copper cents, go ahead. It's your money to do with as you please. If you want to save copper cents to make a profit in the future, it may not be so simple. And if you are advising others that saving copper cents is a great way to make money, especially without addressing all of the issues.....well, that's just irresponsible in my opinion.
Based on my change pile, I get about 10 to 15 pennies a week in change. Out of those, there seems to be around 2 or 3 that are pre '82. So let's say 2 out of 10. After a year of setting those aside, I'd have a little over 100 copper pennies saved up. Suppose the melt value of a penny is 3 cents, That's for pure copper, which these pennies aren't, so there will be refining costs. As well, whoever you sell to is going to want to make something on the deal, so let's say you can find somebody who will pay 2 cents each for them. Your cost is 1 cent, leaving you a profit of about a buck for the year.
You've doubled your money but clearly, just saving pennies out of your change isn't practical in any sense if you're interested in profiting from your efforts. It'll be necessary to actively search these copper pennies out. How will that go? Let's see...
The plan will be to look through one $50 bag/box of pennies, five days a week. If you sort through them by checking dates at one coin per second, that would be 50 seconds/roll. When you add in the time to unroll and reroll the coins, let's just say 1 minute per roll, 100 minutes per bag/box. Add 10 minutes for each trip to and from the bank and you're up to two hours a day. At a rate of 2 copper pennies out of 10, you'll end up with 1000 copper pennies which you can sell for $20. Subtracting your cost for the pennies, you're at $10. Two and a half miles to the bank twice a day is 25 miles a week, at 25mpg that's a gallon of gas that costs $5. Subtracting that, your net profit is $5.
For two hour's work.
So, assuming copper cents and silver dimes are worth 3x each at some point in time, 1 kg of dimes would be worth $120. To get that value in cents, you'd need to have 12.44 kg of them. Yes, it might be worth saving your cents, but they are just so darn heavy!
Really? Where can you spend them in Canada today? The past several years every place I've shopped in Canada the cent is largely notional. It is collected on electronic payments, but when you pay cash they round to the nearest 5¢.
I mean if you are paying in cash and have Canadian pennies you can spend them. They are still legal tender.
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
I'm convinced, I'm hoarding copper cents
As a hobby - have at it, as a business model not so good. You could get one of those copper cent sorters - I've never used one but they have been mentioned in previous threads which would speed up the sort. You also could get a better source of coins in bags rather than rolls which would help speed up things and increase your potential profit margin. I suspect in the end you'll end up where the rest of us that did this for a while did and cash out or perhaps you'll fill a closet or two with a few thousand bucks worth. It's all fun but if they ever did open the door to melting the cents I can guarantee you wouldn't be alone in saving those pennies and many here would start tucking them away and for anyone short on cash and lacking employment they might go whole hog at it until they found an easier way to make money.
Jim
The cent sorting machine was called a Ryedale, I believe.
The machine's maker was probably the only one who made money back during the copper cent frenzy a decade or two ago.
I has always heard that during the gold rushes of the 19th century the smartest guys were the ones who sold the picks and shovels to all the gold seekers.
Actually, a lot of constitutional silver has been melted, especially during the early 1980's. I do not know if any is being melted at the current time but it is legal to do so. It may not be legal for a great number of years yet to melt down copper coins. You would need an awful lot of pennies to make any kind of a profit. To me, not worth it, BUT, I have been wrong before. In the end it is your decision, so do what you want. I would rather buy silver.
So wouldn't I. And I have in fact bought as much silver as I can afford...only trouble is that it's not much
So I can only hope that silver stays cheap long enough so I can get the main silver coins I want. Not just the ones on my wishlist but also the 90s silver eagles and silver maples as well.
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Well how are you supposed to check the years/mintmarks and pick out the Wheaties and so on?
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Serious copper hoarders didn't care about that, I think. They just wanted to separate the copper from zinc, and in high volume.
Oh you mean like how those silver stackers don't care about that either?
But that's no fun for me. I like the kind of collectibles where you try to get all the years you can. And in the case of silver coins, I still don't have any Franklin or Walking Liberty halves so it's not like I don't still have plenty to do in those regards.
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Listen, I know some of you may think me saving copper pennies is a joke. But besides buying some silver (I can't afford that much but it's better than nothing) while hopefully it stays cheapish I can't really afford to "invest" in much of anything else. It just would be nice for once to be ahead of the curve on something. And again, as long as I get them on face value I can't lose.
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Sure you can. Inflation will destroy their value over time.
If you want to hoard copper then by all means do it.
But I just don't understand your reasoning.
"Ahead of the curve"
People hoarded copper cents around 15 years ago. Most of those people eventually gave up and dumped their hoards back into circulation.
"As long as I get them at face value I can't lose"
No offense, but have you not read the repeated references in this thread to "opportunity cost" and inflation? You can lose.
A common theme in your threads and responses is that you can't afford various things. Building wealth and opportunity is based on sound financial decisions.
Let's say that you have $20 to spend on roll searching. If you set your sites on copper cents then after searching enough rolls and continually recycling your rejects back into new rolls you will eventually end up with your $20 tied up in copper cents. That's a dead end.
Instead, why not churn your $20 over and over and only save the truly worthwhile coins? Or, find someone else who wants to hoard copper and sell him your copper cents. Even if you get two cents per coin then you can double your money. Keep doing this and your $20 can be grown into more and more money.
The above scenarios are somewhat hypothetical, but hopefully the point is made.
I suspect that in the end you'll just hoard copper, thinking it's the poor man's silver.
Good luck with it. Hopefully you'll atleast have some fun.
P.S. - I find far more silver in the Coinstar reject slots than I do in the occsssional quarter roll searches that I do.
I do that too when I get the chance. No luck so far.
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Keep at it. It's usually empty, but occasionally I find a stray silver dime or two. And once I hit the jackpot with about $14 face value in silver dimes and quarters. 😀
That sure might cross off a few on my wishlist below!
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Case for a nickel apiece (~ $8/lb) copper pennies:
A cleaner, decarbonized economy simply cannot happen without more copper. Consider that an electric vehicle uses 200 pounds of it — four times more than a gas-powered vehicle. Solar panels contain 5.5 tons of copper per megawatt. Wind farms require it, as do the components in energy storage units.
The challenge is simply that we don’t have enough copper supply globally, or in the United States — not even close. The United States is a net importer of copper and has a major copper deficit that grows every year. The clean energy future has a mineral roadblock, and if we are going to stay on the road toward a clean energy future, there’s no alternative route.
Goldman Sachs has called the situation “a molecule crisis” and concluded that without more copper the clean energy economy simply “will not happen.” And unlike a knowledge-based workforce that can migrate with opportunity, minerals are place-bound.
But they're just pennies. Forget the art. There has been historically no respect for the penny among some who dare call themselves art collectors because of the lowly denomination that it is. So it follows that the copper rich penny gets no respect from the same for containing the valuable commodity that it does.
Look for copper pennies becoming legal to melt and the price of copper to skyrocket one of these days. Copper baby! Believe it!
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
You need a lot more than just more copper. Spoiler alert... it's not happening.
Do you care to expand on your statement?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
You said it: "The clean energy future has a mineral roadblock, and if we are going to stay on the road toward a clean energy future, there’s no alternative route."
The resources required are not available. You can't get there from here.
I was just reading about that earlier this week. The raw materials can't be mined in the quantities necessary.
I believe that the future is bright for copper, but you're making a leap over a very inconvenient reality. The melt ban was put into place so millions or billions of cents would not disappear from circulation. Replacing them in a timely manner would be nearly impossible (and expensive).
The government could always recall them to melt them but they are presumably not impacted by the ban.
When the copper pennies are legal to melt to help provide copper to enable green energy production, that's when the thinking will begin to turn to the penny no longer be useful in ordinary commerce. Rounding up to the next nickel will be done, in other words. Currently about 25% of pennies in circulation are made of 95% copper. Short of rounding up to the next nickel I really don't see a coin shortage problem coming from melting copper pennies. The enormous mintages of zinkies (since 1982) aren't providing enough pennies for commerce?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Copper won't be the issue. The issue will be the other minerals/metals that are also needed.
Don't ask me, ask the Treasury Department. Why did they implement the ban in the first place?
I would not save them, and I don't
It could be another 50 years before it is legal to melt them
BHNC #203
Based on a time/value estimate, saving cents makes no sense (or cents). You can be much more productive just working for a minimum wage job rather than saving cents. Also with inflation, a cent has essentially $0.00 worth.
But if you want to save cents and enjoy it more power to you. Save every cent you find!
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Ok, I make 6 figures working for a 175 year old Germen company and I collect copper cents and it's not a waste of time because I enjoy my hobby and love Lincolns, - and yes, I collect silver too, lots of it....
And with that photo, I am hooked on saving them for life.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Well apparently at least one major bullion dealer has gotten in on the act...
https://www.moneymetals.com/buy/copper
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Are they buying? I took a quick look and couldn't tell.
Just the fact that they're even bothering selling copper pennies is a good sign that it would be smart to collect them out of penny rolls while you can still get them/find them for face value. If only one could still do that in terms of finding silver dimes/quarters...I probably have better odds of finding a four leaf clover or winning Pick 4 than finding a silver in a roll of dimes or quarters...but hey as long as you get the rolls at face value you can't lose!
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Depends. What's your time worth? $2.50/hr.? More?
About the same amount of time the others here spend CRH. And in my case I can't afford to do very many though at least I can swap them out easily and quickly as I have a bank and credit union branch right next door to me.
D's: 50P,49S,45D+S,43D,41S,40D,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 241,435,610,654 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars