2009 Lincoln Cents- MS vs SP
E1enxjdb
Posts: 16 ✭
Hello there. I used to be a member of the forum however it had lapsed. I’ve since rejoined. I’ve been a member for over a decade now. Collector for almost 40 years though. For the 2009 bicentennial Lincoln cents I have been submitting them for grading for about six years now. I’ve been searching NF String rolls for high MS coins and have been fortunate to find most of the PCGS Top Pop MS68s. I’ve sent some of them to a member here at Heritage on consignment. I’m certain that all of the coins that I have submitted are MS coins. Could an expert on here help with an objective way to tell the MS coins from the SP coins? I thought that there was a weight and composition difference (MS= 2.5g and zinc, SP= 3.11g and bronze). Thanks in advance!
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@E1enxjdb.... Welcome back. The weights are correct as you stated. Cheers, RickO
Welcome back! The bronze SP issues are intended to be materially identical to the 1909 issues.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer, see my portfolio here: (http://www.donahuenumismatics.com/).
That is what the Mint has on their website. PCGS has it on their website. CoinFacts states the same. And I know they were pulled from MS bank rolls. I weighed them as well before I sent them. So if they weigh 2.5g then they are absolutely MS coins? The only way they could be SP is if they were removed from the special sets and weigh 3.11g? Just trying to get more confirmation from someone other that just myself. It has been frustrating being told that my coins are not what I say they are and there’s nothing I can do about it. I appreciate your input!
I believe that is correct, unless planchets got mixed up I suppose.
I have a whole bank box of 2500 with mixed up planchets….they DO look different and I’ve never found any others like them. Just that one box of first day of issue coins. If you look at pictures on the website you can see the differences yourselves. The MS68 2009-D Formative Years and even some of the MS67s. They have a much smoother appearances and no spotting to speak of.
Cert 83436367 and 83463670 are from my previous submissions.
Are you going by weight or finish?
If you found it in a box/roll and it weighs at the circulation/zinc specs, then it's MS, based on my understanding of what is stated above.
Are you saying that some of your box coins are grading out as SP?
Weight. Yes that’s what I’m stating. And I have to keep calling, resubmitting, and trying to prove my point to folks. I wouldn’t be doing this for SP coins as it’s cost me a bunch so far. Why spend time and effort on a $9 coin. 😖🤔
So you are pulling copper out of new boxes of zinc rolls?
I am not sure how easy/possible it is to definitively tell an MS from SP, so I can't comment on that.
But if you are saying that SP planchets got into your zinc batch, then wouldn’t that be an off-metal error? It seems to me that it would be best (or necessary) to submit as an error.
No. I’m pulling zinc out of zinc rolls and they are being graded SP. I tried to convince folks to grade them as an off-metal error as well but that didn’t work. Would seem easy to confirm that the coins weigh 2.5g and are therefore MS but I have gotten extraordinary push-back from asking folks to do that. An MS68 coin is a bit different scarcity-wise than an SP68. 🙂
Hmmm. That's a tough one. I wanted to believe that they could tell SP from MS if they were grading them raw that way.
If SP is on bronze and yours are on zinc then they have some explaining to do...
I wholeheartedly agree. My coins do LOOK different than most MS coins and it’s understandable why folks would think they MIGHT be SP, but a simple confirmation of the weight should tell them otherwise. I have thus far been unsuccessful in getting folks just weigh the coin out of the slab and correct the error. Not sure what else to try? Been at it now since March 12. Are there other factors at play that they would be unable to check the weight and confirm that they are MS? 🤔. I have had this issue before with another 2009 Lincoln submission and they corrected it very quickly as a ‘Mechanical Error”. That was in 2020 after everything hit even…. I would think that a simple weight check of the 2009 Lincolns would be part of the grading routine so that folks are absolutely sure of the designation. Then they can concentrate on the numerical grade.
Well the coins are being returned with the incorrect designation of Satin Finish. Folks will simply not admit their error and get this corrected. The service folks have been extremely unhelpful also. Is there any person that you-all have contacted that could discuss the technical aspects rather than just the customer service people? Seems everyone there is simply too busy to resolve this issue by weighing the coins. I’ve even offered to pay the cost to do that. I’ll submit as an off-metal error of a Satin Finish coin struck on a 2.5g zinc planchet. That will cost additional money, but at least they will have to take the coin out of the holder and weigh it. I’m unsure why the strong push-back to do something that is required for these specific type of coin as part of the grading process. If the folks there are correct, then the U.S. Mint, CoinFacts, and their website all need to be revised to show that the Satin Finish coins weigh 2.5g, are on a zinc planchet, and can be found in circulation.
This sounds like a frustrating situation. How large is the group that is misattributed?
Collector, occasional seller
It is only 4 coins. 3 were graded SP67. 1 was graded SP68. Just need the designations changed from SP to MS because that’s what they are. If they reconsider the 68 as a 67 or 67+ I’d even accept that as a compromise. I only ask that they be graded correctly since that’s their purpose I believe….🤔😁
As I see it, these are mechanical errors, at least that is the best explanation for them to use.
You could try them at NGC as it sounds like you are spinning your wheels (and burning cash) at PCGS.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
They did try at first to have me resubmit as a mechanical error. Folks still insist that they are SP coins and WILL NOT remove them from the holders to weigh them. If I have one of the finest graded coins maybe another TPG would grade it an MS69?? I am a member there as well. Since this has happened before and was corrected without an issue, I was hoping to stay here with my first choice. I have had hundreds graded without issue prior to this situation. If Im being a trailblazer here for even one other person to have their 2009 Lincoln’s graded correctly then I’ll keep on them. Folks are simply wrong with the designation of the coin as SP. it’s not my opinion it is an undisputed fact. Calling it a coin number 407847 instead of a 407841 when the readily verifiable specifications for each are different will not be accepted. It’s not about $$ anymore this time. Just need them to do the right thing.
My imagination is telling me that they've had problems with "less than scrupulous" submitters trying to get SP coins into MS holders, so out of caution any coin that "looks SP" is called SP. I have no evidence for this whatsoever but the reasoning seems sound.
If I'm not mistaken, a bronze cent rings differently with a metal detector than a zinc cent. You can do that test if you have access to one.
Collector, occasional seller
They do “ring” differently but the main tell is the FACT that their weights are different. Not to mention I pulled them from rolls. An unscrupulous person could try to deceive the TPG, but a simple weight check would make that infeasible. Besides, who pulls 100s of coins from mint issued packaging with the hopes of getting a $14 coin or even a $95 coin for that matter. It’s just not fiscally sound. Now pulling and submitting coins that sell for thousands is another story. Over the past 6 years I’ve torn open literally 10000 rolls of these and don’t want to have put in the time and effort just to have it discounted. 👎🙂
I agree completely, unfortunately the coins are in holders(which I assume you aren't cracking out just yet) and cannot be weighed. I checked some nickels I have here and the in-holder weight varied by about .5g among same type holders.
Collector, occasional seller
In holder weights vary. They will need to be cracked out and weighed for the TPG verification. I have weighed them before submission and they are 2.5g as they should be for MS. I will not crack them out as I’d like to preserve the 68. I’ll leave that up to them. 👍😁
Best of luck. I have confidence that PCGS will do the right thing, it might just take a while.
Collector, occasional seller
When I found my SP cents in our cash register at the coin shop I worked in, I immediately pulled them out and asked my boss if I could buy them from the register. He was such an awesome person he said just replace them , a cent for a cent. I pulled out perhaps 8 of them. The reason I say this is because they do look so different compared to a high grade zinc. The color of a zinc unc verses a copper unc is for this series is unmistakable.
Or, should be in my opinion.
The SP is alot lighter ( in color ) no spotting, and a gorgeous stike.
I hope you get it straightened out. That would be a fantastic find.
The SP coins were only in the special mint issued sets. The color is much lighter though as you said. I have found most of the MS68 coins in the bicentennial series, but it has taken 6 years and searching 500000 rolled uncirculated coins…..🤣🙂
Indeed, the cents I rescued were from uncirulated limited mint sets. The cents were just put in the drawer. ( at the coin shop )I was so amazed w the strike and color, I weighed them when I got home. And all were 3.1. You must have an amazing cent for it to pass as one of these gems! Possible top pop. Keep us posted! Good luck!
So I’ve been in contact with customer service again. There is no explanation other than “the coins are SP”. Don’t they have a person that can have a technical discussion as to why they’re NOT? The CS reps are just reporting what the graders say. Is it possible to speak directly with the graders or someone technical? I know they are a big company and probably don’t have time for the little guy, but if the collector pays for a service and that service is not provided what recourse do we have? I have no problem with the numerical grades whatever they may be, but telling a collector that a coin is something that it’s not, when it can be proven otherwise, is simply unacceptable without an explanation. It is literally their job to get it right.
Not sure if it would help but it's time to "speak to a manager".
It is a mechanical error. They need to fix it.
I have spoken with a manager. Need someone higher up and they will not put me in contact with anyone. Anyone have any further ideas? I’m used to dealing with stubborn folks. This is a bit more than that though. Any points of contact that the community here could provide would be appreciated. 😖😵💫
Sounds like you have hit the brick wall. Unless you are prepared to escalate this to a legal mater it sounds like you have run out of options.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Well I said I had been speaking with a manager and it was actually a supervisor. Guess managers are a little higher. Expecting a call back from them. I’m patient….👍😁
Go get 'em! Must see this through!