What do I have to do to get the attribution? -Update 9/30/2022 Attribution received!

keyman64

Who should I talk to? Is there some type of Presidential Review anymore? What do I need to do? How do I get compensated for having to ship it, insure it etc for PCGS to go through this process again?

Summer 2021, I submitted my 1931-D 10c in MS67FB CAC for DDO FS-101 Attribution.
The variety person at PCGS said it was NOT the variety. I contacted customer service via phone and email.
I explained that my coin is THE DDO FS-101. I begged for a supervisor. I wrote up evidence and begged that they pass the information on to the variety person. Surely they would take a second look, look at the evidence I submitted via email and agree that my coin was the variety, give it attribution on the label and all would be right with the world. It did not work out in my favor. I noticed and I contacted customer service again, felt I was not treated as I should have been and the coin was shipped back to me with extra stickers on the slab that seemed like a jab at me personally.

A little history - In 2010 IIRC (could have been 2011), I had to also correct PCGS on a 1931-D DDO FS-101 in MS65FB. PCGS initially labeled that coin as a Minor DDO. That was wrong because there is only one DDO known for the date. This information is backed up with a couple of sources. 1. The Authoritative Reference On Mercury Dimes by John A. Wexler and Kevin Flynn. 2. Another fine resource that also shows only one DDO for the date is Variety Vista. If you go to this page, you only see a single DDO for the date. If you click on the example then you get more photos and if you go to the photo of the date, it looks like mine. 3. A third resource but not as good due to the poor photo quality is the Cherrypickers' Guide which also shows the date that looks like mine.

An interesting thing is that Variety Vista does not show the reverse die markers that are most obvious on many well struck Mint State examples. This is likely just one of the reverses paired with the DDO but it is the most obvious. I show it in my photo collage produced from the PCGS True View. You can see the same reverse die marker in other high grade examples I link to below.

Here is the link to my coin for ease of use. My 1931-D in PCGS 67FB CAC

Here are links to PCGS ATTRIBUTED EXAMPLES. Look for the die markers I show above.
1931-D in PCGS 66+FB DDO FS-101 Cert#34400705

1931-D in PCGS 66FB DDO FS-101 Cert#43505549

1931-D in PCGS 66FB DDO FS-101 Cert#36650381

1931-D in PCGS 66FB DDO FS-101 Cert#34895888

1931-D in PCGS 64FB DDO FS-101 Cert#35835423

What do I do at this point? Do I have to submit it elsewhere for cross and attribution, risk my grade and sticker, try to cross then go through a possible battle with grade and then jump through hoops for another sticker? Why should I have to spend all this money, go through all of these headaches and frustration? Do I have to print out large photos of all the coins in PCGS Coin Facts at a photo lab for my evidence, write up a ton of evidence such as this, do a submission and then pray the evidence actually makes it to the variety person this time? I have a feeling the evidence I provided through customer service did not go anywhere or it was ignored and not looked at. How much money do I have to put into this coin?

What would you do? Any productive advice? Can I meet with someone high up at Winter FUN?...who?...although I really do not want to wait that long. Then there is the discussion of current turn around times. How much time needs to be invested into this?

Here is how my coin was returned to me. After going back and forth with customer service and the coin going through the variety person twice, one might interpret this in different ways. I did not interpret it favorably.

basetsb

What in the world are those stickers!!??? No way PCGS put that on there....

keyman64

@basetsb said:
What in the world are those stickers!!??? No way PCGS put that on there....

They absolutely did and that is how my coin was returned to me, promise!

IkesT

I notice this DDO is married to two different reverse dies, which may be part of the confusion.

Here's one from the FS-101 Coinfacts page that matches the reverse of your coin:

https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/37698034_167362952_Max.jpg

And here's one that is missing the reverse die scratches you circled and has a different mint mark placement (D is directly under the leaf instead of to the right of the leaf):

https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/27139341_36877748_Max.jpg

keyman64

Correct, not all of them have the reverse die markers that I indicated but many of them do...and that's the point. Some are issues with the strike as well. The date is the most important piece and then I can go through Coin Facts and match my obverse and reverse up with many other high grade examples as I showed in my original post. I don't get it. What do I have to do to get the attribution?

Relaxn

@MFeld Thoughts? You have the connections to help him out?
@CaptHenway Same for you

I know I am leaving many out but you 2 are the first off the top of my head that could aid...

J

FlyingAl

@keyman64 said:
Correct, not all of them have the reverse die markers that I indicated but many of them do...and that's the point. Some are issues with the strike as well. The date is the most important piece and then I can go through Coin Facts and match my obverse and reverse up with many other high grade examples as I showed in my original post. I don't get it. What do I have to do to get the attribution?

I really do wonder if PCGS relies on secondary markers for doubling. This may account for the reports like yours happening, and the large amount of trouble to get this fixed. Good luck!

oih82w8

Something that I noticed in comparison to the links provided against yours, is that yours does not have the split serif on the bottom of the second 1 of the date, whereas the other links do. Yours is a little softer strike on the date, but the other split serifs are there. Just my obverse observation. You may need a endorsement push letter from a Mercury Dime subject matter expert to possibly sway the variety attribution folks at PCGS. Or have it attributed through https://varslab.com/ which would provide a close-up on the PUP.

1madman

I had to resubmit for a variety attribution years ago, and I believe this was how I got it corrected on the holder: Fill out a pcgs submission form using mechanical error under “other” service level. Print out the web page showing a picture and description of the variety and include that paper with the pcgs submission form. If it’s in the cherrypickers guide, make a photocopy of that page and include it too. Write the full website address from your source (variety vista, etc) on the pcgs submission form too so that they have it documented as the source.

I would strongly suggest you submit the coin & paperwork in person to pcgs at a show so any additional notes customer service needs to write on the form is done accurately.

LanceNewmanOCC

@keyman64 said:

.
is it possible to get grades/attribs on the pcgs page before orders ship? i know we used to catch stuff like that years ago but i haven't subbed enough to pay much attention these days.

keyman64

@oih82w8 said:
Something that I noticed in comparison to the links provided against yours, is that yours does not have the split serif on the bottom of the second 1 of the date, whereas the other links do. Yours is a little softer strike on the date, but the other split serifs are there. Just my obverse observation. You may need a endorsement push letter from a Mercury Dime subject matter expert to possibly sway the variety attribution folks at PCGS. Or have it attributed through https://varslab.com/ which would provide a close-up on the PUP.

Correct, the strike on my coin is not the greatest on the 31 but that is also the case for many of the others. You can see the doubling on my 3 but it is tough. Everything else is as obvious as it comes.

davewesen

I see some markers and doubling in date, maybe you found a new DDO for 1931-D

varietyvista.com/06%20Mercury%20Dime/1931DDDO001.htm

sadly, I do not feel all slabbed PCGS varieties are accurate so using coinfacts coins as example may not be a good idea.

maybe send it to Wiles and see what he calls it?

varietyvista.com/Attribution%20Services.htm

keyman64

@1madman said:
I had to resubmit for a variety attribution years ago, and I believe this was how I got it corrected on the holder: Fill out a pcgs submission form using mechanical error under “other” service level. Print out the web page showing a picture and description of the variety and include that paper with the pcgs submission form. If it’s in the cherrypickers guide, make a photocopy of that page and include it too. Write the full website address from your source (variety vista, etc) on the pcgs submission form too so that they have it documented as the source.

I would strongly suggest you submit the coin & paperwork in person to pcgs at a show so any additional notes customer service needs to write on the form is done accurately.

I have had to do similar in the past but with submissions taking 100+ days and since I submitted evidence via email to customer service and it still didn't get the attribution I wonder if anything was communicated to them. I agree, a show with a person conversation is best. I certainly don't want to ship it again and then just pray for the best.

I know someone that it took 3 submissions for his 1928-S to be attributed as the Large S. That is one of the easiest varieties.

keyman64

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@keyman64 said:

.
is it possible to get grades/attribs on the pcgs page before orders ship? i know we used to catch stuff like that years ago but i haven't subbed enough to pay much attention these days.

Yes, that is how I caught this last year before they shipped it the first time. I then caught it the second time and they told me they were just going to ship it back to me anyway.

keyman64

@davewesen said:
I see some markers and doubling in date, maybe you found a new DDO for 1931-D

varietyvista.com/06%20Mercury%20Dime/1931DDDO001.htm

sadly, I do not feel all slabbed PCGS varieties are accurate so using coinfacts coins as example may not be a good idea.

maybe send it to Wiles and see what he calls it?

varietyvista.com/Attribution%20Services.htm

This is not a new variety. There is only one DDO for the date. The die markers match way too many examples in Coin Facts that have already been attributed as well.

davewesen

how do you know for certain there are not 2 (or more)?

yours has different die polish above what you are showing (by UNUM) and a different die crack through the T

keyman64

@davewesen said:
how do you know for certain there are not 2 (or more)?

yours has different die polish above what you are showing (by UNUM) and a different die crack through the T

Do you know how many specialists have been looking? How many authors that I referenced in my original post have been looking? People report things to variety vista all the time...there's only one. That is not usual for dies to be worked, wear out and crack. I have been doing this stuff, specializing in Mercury DImes for 40 years. Heavily into the varieties for 15 years. Every other Mercury Dime variety collector would agree with me. I've had to correct PCGS way more times than they have corrected me, let's put it that way.

davewesen

do you know how many years it took to discover the 1919 ddo?

here is link ->https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/937347/1919-mercury-dime-confirmed-ddo-discovery-piece-census-in-1st-post/p1

I apologize if I am talking to the Mercury dime King.

keyman64

@davewesen said:
do you know how many years it took to discover the 1919 ddo?

here is link ->https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/937347/1919-mercury-dime-confirmed-ddo-discovery-piece-census-in-1st-post/p1

I apologize if I am talking to the Mercury dime King.

Yes, I am aware. And yes, I am probably considered one of the Mercury Dime kings when it comes to the varieties.

FlyingAl

@davewesen said:
how do you know for certain there are not 2 (or more)?

yours has different die polish above what you are showing (by UNUM) and a different die crack through the T

If the doubling matches, it's the variety. This isn't exactly a variety that's particularly difficult to see, and there's not going to be a second variety that matches exactly.

Secondly, relying on secondary pick up points is a pitfall. Look at how many 1964 Proof halves are misattributed as Accented Hair example in the marketplace because the person uses the reverse to attribute it. The only characteristic that should ever be used to attribute a coin is the doubling or feature itself. I would bet that many of the most experienced cherrypickers would agree with me on that.

alaura22

Could it be that those stickers mean
DO NOT SHIP?
DO NOT CRACK OUT
So they can add the DDO FS-101 Attribution?
And they made a mistake and shipped it back to you?
Just thinking outside the box

jmlanzaf

@Relaxn said:
@MFeld Thoughts? You have the connections to help him out?
@CaptHenway Same for you

I know I am leaving many out but you 2 are the first off the top of my head that could aid...

J

Neither of those fine gentlemen work for PCGS

WaterSport

Like it was said before - prepare your case for trial. Document, copy photos from known sources and circle in red your coin compared to others and by all means, include an outside source documentation letter from Wiles or whoever else you want. NOTE: I have had to do this many times before. While others here have claimed to have been compensated - Free postage return, maybe a voucher, I have never seen it happened even when asked. So forgot about the compensation focus of just getting the coin attributed.

WS

DollarAfterDollar

I submitted a coin for conservation then grading as an FS 401. It was actually an FS 402. They conserved the coin then graded it, took my money for attribution then said it wasn't FS 401 and left the label unattributed.

That lost them my attribution business.

LanceNewmanOCC

@keyman64 said:

.
fwiw, i have no idea why your coin hasn't been attributed. it matches variety vista, it matches coin facts, it is not your first example.

in my opinion, you are owed an apology and/or some incentive for them not being able to attribute this easily identifiable/verifiable ddo.

i do know within the depths of the catacombs at the tpgs they are making decisions and changing things and we struggle to run to catch up with the info as i am sure even they do. a LOT of moving parts going on but since we, the public, are usually the last to know, perhaps something has changed with this variety. it isn't like they are going to tell us either way. my brain refuses to accept the main attributor at pcgs cannot identify this. that is illogical. gotta be something else.

depending on how dedicated you are to the cause, i would get some names (letters) behind your cause, not to force pcgs to do something they don't want/can't do but to prove what you have is what it is, since nothing else seems to be working.

have you sent pictures from the OP with the coin, this has helped MANY persons in the past.

post on the coneca forum?

tbh, even if there were 5 different reverses, that would be meaningless since pcgs lumps TONS of varieties/marriages/vams etc together with different dies, so long as the main feature is the same on each marriage.

they obviously do a good job and it is really the exceptions that provide the majority of problems.

keyman64

@WaterSport said:
Like it was said before - prepare your case for trial. Document, copy photos from known sources and circle in red your coin compared to others and by all means, include an outside source documentation letter from Wiles or whoever else you want. NOTE: I have had to do this many times before. While others here have claimed to have been compensated - Free postage return, maybe a voucher, I have never seen it happened even when asked. So forgot about the compensation focus of just getting the coin attributed.

WS

Thank you. Yes, compensation would be nice but that cannot be my focus right now. I agree. I need to focus on the attribution. That said, I emailed customer service last summer with plenty of evidence. I can prepare for trial as much as I want BUT how can I guarantee that my case is actually heard? I have a feeling the information I sent to customer service last summer never made it to attribution. If I print up a bunch of things at a photo lab, get 50 letters from other professionals etc...how do I guarantee the information isn't just tossed in the trash and gets to the right person at PCGS. I can prepare for trial but if there is no judge to hear the case....what do I do?

keyman64

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@keyman64 said:

.
fwiw, i have no idea why your coin hasn't been attributed. it matches variety vista, it matches coin facts, it is not your first example.

in my opinion, you are owed an apology and/or some incentive for them not being able to attribute this easily identifiable/verifiable ddo.

i do know within the depths of the catacombs at the tpgs they are making decisions and changing things and we struggle to run to catch up with the info as i am sure even they do. a LOT of moving parts going on but since we, the public, are usually the last to know, perhaps something has changed with this variety. it isn't like they are going to tell us either way. my brain refuses to accept the main attributor at pcgs cannot identify this. that is illogical. gotta be something else.

depending on how dedicated you are to the cause, i would get some names (letters) behind your cause, not to force pcgs to do something they don't want/can't do but to prove what you have is what it is, since nothing else seems to be working.

have you sent pictures from the OP with the coin, this has helped MANY persons in the past.

post on the coneca forum?

tbh, even if there were 5 different reverses, that would be meaningless since pcgs lumps TONS of varieties/marriages/vams etc together with different dies, so long as the main feature is the same on each marriage.

they obviously do a good job and it is really the exceptions that provide the majority of problems.

Thank you for chiming in, I appreciate it. Honestly, I did not know there was a coneca forum. Hmmm.
Sounds like I might need a few letters and I need to print up a bunch of PCGS' own photos at a photo lab with pretty red arrows and circles over them. As annoying as that is, if I have to do it, I will.

But here's the problem - How do I guarantee there will be a judge to actually hear my case and pay attention to the evidence that I submit, instead of it just going in the trash with my other packaging? If I go through these hoops of fire, I want my case heard by someone that is fair and reasonable.

A long time ago, there was this thing called a presidential review. It was expensive...I do not think it exists any longer but geez, I should not have to pay anything to get my case heard.

WQuarterFreddie

Take your coin and documentation to the next local coin show and talk to PCGS representatives.

When I attended the FUN show in Florida I was able to meet several PCGS key management personnel at their luncheon.

In my opinion that is your best option for getting your coin and documentation in to the hands of the correct person.

Be persistent, be polite and be patient!😉

Good luck!😎

keyman64

@WQuarterFreddie said:
Take your coin and documentation to the next local coin show and talk to PCGS representatives.

When I attended the FUN show in Florida I was able to meet several PCGS key management personnel at their luncheon.

In my opinion that is your best option for getting your coin and documentation in to the hands of the correct person.

Be persistent, be polite and be patient!😉

Good luck!😎

I can do that at Winter FUN but that is a long time out and there is still no guarantee that I can meet with the right person/people unless I arrange it in advance and how do I do that? Who should I reach out to? All the evidence in the world just doesn't matter if there's no judge to hear the case.

ifthevamzarockin

I would send Heather a very polite PM asking her to take a look at this thread and see if she can help.

She has helped get a few customer service issues resolved here on the forum.
Please keep in mind she is very busy with other things and sometimes doesn't check in here for several days. Be patient
She would not be handling it for you but may direct a customer service specialist your direction.

WQuarterFreddie

@keyman64
Always best to start at the top. Contact customer service and ask for the President/CEO email address.

Worst case, you attend Winter FUN show.

It seems you are looking for a guaranteed easy way to accomplish your goal. Stop focusing on that and just keep your eye on the prize.

It sounds to me that other members are supporting you and your case so don't give up!

Please keep us informed of your progress along the way!😎

WQuarterFreddie

@HeatherBoyd

I just tagged Heather for you. She is a wonderful resource at PCGS.

Perhaps she can offer some assistance!🤞

WQuarterFreddie

@ifthevamzarockin said:
I would send Heather a very polite PM asking her to take a look at this thread and see if she can help.

She has helped get a few customer service issues resolved here on the forum.
Please keep in mind she is very busy with other things and sometimes doesn't check in here for several days. Be patient
She would not be handling it for you but may direct a customer service specialist your direction.

Great minds think alike!😎😂🤣

skier07

If it was my coin unless I needed the coin to be attributed immediately I’d wait until things settle down at PCGS before trying again. PCGS is stretched to a maximum today and things will eventually get better.

LanceNewmanOCC

@keyman64

https://board.conecaonline.org/

i agree. stay positive, stay patient, stay polite. it is but one coin (now n then). if this is the worst you/we face, we are living in Shangri-La.

be happy you aren't big into buff/frank varieties. i've been in the middle and periphery with others in situations with attributions manifold times worse than this.

i can think of other creative solutions to try but they are long, hard, expensive and even then, not guaranteed to work.

one of the thing that absolutely astonishes me is that out of all the people here, they haven't found at least 1 of the regular posting members as a intermediary with extensive numis knowledge and great candor and temperament.

but i still give them a 95+% rating. there will always be situations that defy logic. how we handle them says the most.

if it gets to be too much, do a giveaway here. nothing like a gear shift into positivity and generosity to raise the spirits!

krueger

Wow! I feel your pain. I have the same pain.
Show your situation to NGC David lange, or mr. Camarie get a second opinion from them separate from PCGS.
It will help to get a fresh independent perspective. They are the variety experts at NGC.
I am going thru your pain now too as I have noticed more widely difergent gradings beween PCGS and NGC.
Use to be said they were 1/2 to 1 point apart. Lately I am seeing crackouts differing by 3 to 6 points .
I was in shock. Complains / responses falling along company lines.
I am battling this like you are, but over this different issue. Variety problems also.
Good luck

krueger

I have problems with weak varieties, not as full as the ref. Catalog shows they are always a no go.
They seem to like them to look like their reference photo and as full and or doubling in the same direction.
Never been able to get them to attribute anything new to the above.
I've been told that the TPG'S by their experts that they are overwhelmed with folks wildly claiming varieties that they feel are not. Consequently they probably get a bit jaded negatively on any request. And their time is short. To review
The data.

TwoSides2aCoin

Graders have good eyes but lack knowledge ? My guess.

HeatherBoyd

Hello all and @keyman64,

Thank you for tagging me, I have forwarded this thread to our team, and I am reaching out to both customer service and the grading team to investigate the submission and consequent follow-up to determine what the next steps should be.

While I am not an expert and cannot comment on whether or not a mistake was made, I will ensure that this is reviewed.

As general education for everyone, there are two methods for submitting PCGS graded coins for variety attribution, Reconsideration Service and Regrade Service. When submitting coins for variety attribution under reconsideration, if you also specify a minimum grade and that requirement is not met, the coin will not be cracked out, and the coin will not receive the variety attribution. If you want the coin attributed regardless of grade, you must submit it under regrade service. You may not specify a minimum grade under regrade service.

I am not saying this is what happened in this case, but it has contributed to similar cases in the past.

Thank you,

Heather

keyman64

@HeatherBoyd said:
Hello all and @keyman64,

Thank you for tagging me, I have forwarded this thread to our team, and I am reaching out to both customer service and the grading team to investigate the submission and consequent follow-up to determine what the next steps should be.

While I am not an expert and cannot comment on whether or not a mistake was made, I will ensure that this is reviewed.

As general education for everyone, there are two methods for submitting PCGS graded coins for variety attribution, Reconsideration Service and Regrade Service. When submitting coins for variety attribution under reconsideration, if you also specify a minimum grade and that requirement is not met, the coin will not be cracked out, and the coin will not receive the variety attribution. If you want the coin attributed regardless of grade, you must submit it under regrade service. You may not specify a minimum grade under regrade service.

I am not saying this is what happened in this case, but it has contributed to similar cases in the past.

Thank you,

Heather

Thank you, Heather. I appreciate you getting this in front of some additional eyes.
This coin was just submitted for variety attribution, not reconsideration or regrade but I could see how those services could complicate things. Thank you.

LanceNewmanOCC

any update?

keyman64

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
any update?

Yes. Heather was able to get some people to look at this post and it was their impression that they should take the coin in for a free review. The submission was entered into the system on Friday. Now we wait. Fingers crossed.

Namvet69

Networking here is worth the price of admission and then some. Peace Roy

keyman64

Here’s the update! Attribution received.
The price guide is pretty far off for the Top Pop 2/0 but that’s not too unusual.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39832592

Thanks to @HeatherBoyd for her assistance.

LanceNewmanOCC

@keyman64 said:
Here’s the update! Attribution received.
The price guide is pretty far off for the Top Pop 2/0 but that’s not too unusual.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39832592

Thanks to @HeatherBoyd for her assistance.

hey gratz.

lovely tied for top-pop!

keyman64

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@keyman64 said:
Here’s the update! Attribution received.
The price guide is pretty far off for the Top Pop 2/0 but that’s not too unusual.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39832592

Thanks to @HeatherBoyd for her assistance.

hey gratz.

lovely tied for top-pop!

Thanks!

LanceNewmanOCC

@keyman64 said:

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@keyman64 said:
Here’s the update! Attribution received.
The price guide is pretty far off for the Top Pop 2/0 but that’s not too unusual.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/39832592

Thanks to @HeatherBoyd for her assistance.

hey gratz.

lovely tied for top-pop!

Thanks!

when you get it back and everything is good in-hand, hold it up with both hands above your head with this playing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jXTBAGv9ZQ

1madman

Now, when are you going to resubmit for restoration to get the tone spots off and get it upgraded to a 68?