PCGS Restored Two Morgans then Graded them as Details (Cleaned)
jbrew715
Posts: 5 ✭
Just wondering if this has happened to anyone else...I submitted 13 US coins for grading. I emailed them a day after they received them and asked if two of the coins (1893-O $1 & 1892-S $1) could be restored (one had a small spot of sticky gunk on it and the other had grime in the letters). They said yes.
Fast forward 2.5 months, which was yesterday, I got an email saying the grades were finished. Two coins where graded as Details (Cleaned) - the two coins I asked to be restored. Confused, I emailed them what happened and they said, "After the restoration was done, our graders opinion was that the coins exhibited signs of cleaning. "
So they restored them then graded them as being cleaned.
Could they have overcleaned it or passed it on to the grader without telling them it was restored?
Has this situation happened to anyone? Is it common for them to restore a coin then grade it as cleaned? Or is this normal and I shouldn't over analyze it?
Thanks.
Comments
I'm guessing the sticky gunk and the grime was hiding an old cleaning and once it was removed, the old cleaning became visible.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I haven't experienced this, but I also see no reason why it would be a unique situation, either. Your communication to them asked for the coins to be restored (I am assuming conserved) and they did it. The coins might or might not have gotten a cleaned designation if you never asked for the conservation, but I would highly doubt that PCGS would alter them to such an extent as to cause the designation.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Sorry to hear that. If a coin has a problem such as cleaning, having it restored won’t rid it of the problem. So while what happened in your case isn’t common, it’s not a shocking result, either.
It would be a good idea to study the coins carefully when you get them back. And ask yourself if you would have submitted them for restoration and grading, had you known they’d been cleaned.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Do you have the before and after pictures of the coins?
I'm not shocked by this but if you found yourself in the same situation (sending in coins to be restored) you might include in your request that the coins be examined before restoration to determine if they are candidates for a straight or details grade. It's possible removing material may reveal something unseen prior to the restoration but it's also possible that evidence of cleaning that would result in a details grade would be seen before the restoration process was done.
Thanks everyone. I just thought it was a very strange coincidence that both of them came out cleaned when none of the others I sent did (I didn't think any were cleaned but I'm not an expert). I bought about a hundred morgan's from an estate and everything I sent in was from that estate.
I don't have before pictures and the coins are still in transit so I don't have after pictures either.
When I emailed to ask to have the two restored, part of their email said, "Please be advised that restoration is not guaranteed. Our graders will determine if the coins will not benefit from restoration or should not be restored."
So I figured they would tell me before hand if there were any issues with the coins, and like I said, they didn't appear to be cleaned by what I could tell.
Thanks again everyone.
The grading services won't give any assurances as to what a coin might look like after conservation. That's always a gamble. If the cleaning was apparent they should have however saw it and told you that before conservation.
For the record I've conserved many coins and they've never said we can't conserve this one. Yet.
I don't think I saw a grade mentioned, were these, (in your opinion) circulated or uncirculated coins?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
The coins still might have benefitted from restoration, as the coins might not have been eligible for a “genuine” holder with the gunk, and then would have been returned in a bodybag.
I for one am comforted by this story. I'm sorry for the OP's situation, of course, but it is an excellent example to prove that the company isn't simply straight-grading everything treated by the restoration service.
I don't think any of us want to live in a world where a coin that's been cleaned by the TPG's own restoration subsidiary gets a straight grade, but a coin given an identical cleaning treatment by anybody else gets a "details", or a bodybag.
As for an explanation, it's possible that at least one of the coins - the "sticky" one - had PVC damage. The sticky stuff can be removed easily enough, but if it's PVC plasticizer, then the damage to the coin is already done, "hiding" underneath the goo and only visible once the goo is removed.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
@jbrew715 ... Welcome aboard. It is certainly possible that the 'restoration' exposed and old cleaning that was not visible prior to restoration. Cheers, RickO
are you assuming their restoration caused the 'cleaning'?
if the coins were raw, are you sure they were not already cleaned?
Sorry for your predicament. Besides the gunk and grime, were the coins also covered in a haze or circulation 'dirt' or heavy patina? These might have hid the cleaning and exposed after restoration and not the spots you were concerned about. Also these 2 key dates are probably played with by doctors more then a lot of other dates since they jump in price dramatically.
Do you have reason to believe they should have received straight grades after being restored? A cleaned coin with sticky gunk on it is no less cleaned with the gunk removed.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Perhaps I'm mistaken but I believe the services only restore coins by submersion. They don't rub on them in any way (I think).
Just asking - weren't old coins cleaned and were acceptable because it was common practice back then? And I agree that the cleaning wasn't obvious untill the "Proffesional" cleaning. I guess hairlines could be covered over by years of haze and "grime"?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
you got before pictures?
maybe they would have graded cleaned before conservation..
I have said!
Be careful if you curate a coin properly because can uncover unseen problems!
I have done a few times!
It happens more than most people think!
At NCS no guarantee of any kind is made and they conserve at their sole discretion.
Thanks again everyone. I just assumed they would be able to tell that they had been cleaned before the restoration. I'm not an expert at all but they looked like they hadn't been touch in at least 40 or 50 years.
They gave the 1893-O $1 an XF Details and the 1892-S came back as Fine Details.
@jbrew715
First off , welcome to the forums, hopefully you stick around - there are a lot of great knowledgeable people and posts.
Thanks for sharing this situation, the graders must not been able to tell that they had been cleaned before the restoration...
It's all about what the people want...
Hey @jbrew715
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
As an aside, what are the dates/mm of the two coins in question?
It happens; I bought a Bust dime from a dealer once that was Unc. who said he would refund me within a month as he was certain it would grade 62-63, etc..; got an email from NGC that it needed conservation; I went ahead and it came back as Unc. details, cleaned and the dealer said it was NGC that ruined the coin then slammed the door on future business. The conservation likely removed pvc which exposed the cleaning in my case.
From your original post, and this follow-up, PCGS may have been able to tell they were cleaned prior to the conservation, but from what I understand you submitted them for grading and asked if these two coins might be conserved, too. Additionally, the folks who do the conservation are not the same folks who do the grading, so it is likely that PCGS graders did not see your coins prior to them being conserved. Lastly, they might not have been touched in the last 40-50 years, but the pieces are approximately 130-years old and folks have manipulated coinage surfaces for many, many decades.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Have had ANACS do it to me.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Does one have anything to do with the other? I mean, if you want a cleaned coin restored, why wouldn't PCGS go ahead and restore it?
I also think PCGS would be in their rights to restore a coin and mark it cleaned from the results of the restoration, depending on what that restoration included.