Genuine 1787 New Jersey Copper Colonial?

InGodWeTrustCoins

Can anyone help authenticate this 1787 New Jersey Colonial? It appears to be overstruck with another coin. It also looks like the Camel Head variety. Obviously very harshly cleaned.
Thank you!

lcutler

I'd never say without question anything is genuine just from pictures, but it looks good to me. It's a 56-n, most if not all are struck over other coins, this one is struck on a counterfeit George III halfpenny.

LanceNewmanOCC

something like "georges iii rex" mail bust right hibernia or something.

here is the orientation of the host piece.

InGodWeTrustCoins

Thank you so much!

LanceNewmanOCC

@InGodWeTrustCoins said:
Thank you so much!

.
welcome. hopefully someone comes along that can be more specific. truly, i really am bad at these.

edited to add:

thanks for the wonderful pics to work with!

BillJones

New Jersey Cents are not my thing, but I’ve read that all of them were struck over other coins. I’d say that it is genuine.

lcutler

@BillJones said:
New Jersey Cents are not my thing, but I’ve read that all of them were struck over other coins. I’d say that it is genuine.

Only certain varieties were struck over other coins, most notably 56-n, 57-n and 58-n. These were actually circulating counterfeits. New Jersey coppers held their value better than the myriad of other lightweight coppers of the day, so enterprising counterfeiters used the lightweight coppers as planchets to make them into the more readily accepted New Jersey coppers.

LanceNewmanOCC

@lcutler said:

@BillJones said:
New Jersey Cents are not my thing, but I’ve read that all of them were struck over other coins. I’d say that it is genuine.

Only certain varieties were struck over other coins, most notably 56-n, 57-n and 58-n. These were actually circulating counterfeits. New Jersey coppers held their value better than the myriad of other lightweight coppers of the day, so enterprising counterfeiters used the lightweight coppers as planchets to make them into the more readily accepted New Jersey coppers.

DANG!

we have some mind readers on this board.

after sleeping on a few subjects, including this thread, i started thinking about real fakes and fake fakes.

i do recall several members over the years talking about the machin mills, hibernia. georges rex etc and/or stuff like them being heavily counterfeited, so it would only make sense that anyone using those type coins to make other coins/tokens/medals etc, would end up striking from authentic dies onto counterfeit "coins."

that being said, is there enough reliable detail to authentic the under type? also, weight, scans etc could reveal more evidence.

THEN. we think. well if people with good intentions struck legit items on unknown or possibly known fakes, only makes sense those with illicit intent would be subject to the same ironies.

and then just because this is how i (some of us) roll, how about fakes struck over authentic items?

we've all seen MORE than enough under types on cwt, colonials, half cents, large cents?, etc. to know this is a fun and crazy deep end of the pool.

while i certainly have something to offer in assistance to these efforts, despite how much i actually don't know about a lot of the stuff i just mentioned, i (some of us) could work quite well in tandem here.

lcutler

I would say it is almost certainly a 23-88A Machin halfpenny.