@hedgefundtradingdesk said:
In order for a statement to be libelous, a specific person or entity must be identified and defamed. It's not libelous to say things about an anonymous stranger because no public reputation is harmed.
Second, it's one thing for someone to act strangely at a coin show parking lot. They might be admiring the incredibly handsome coin dealers! But once they follow you to a gas station or a home, they are stalking which is itself a crime, whether they are known thieves, unknown thieves, or potential thieves.
Third, Apple introduced AirTag tracking devices last year. The stated reason is to help people find misplaced items. Put one on your car keys, or in your airport luggage. Then your Apple device can follow where the AirTag is going.
The problem with AirTags is they've been used on more than several occasions to track people home from bars, by slipping the device into a coat pocket or purse. Apple claims to deter this, by allowing fellow Apple users to scan for AirTags in proximity. Left unsaid is how non-Apple users are supposed to protect themselves. Buy a device from every manufacturer who also sells tracking devices?
I am curious if any members of the dealer or collector community have had experience with AirTags in their belongings or vehicles. It's definitely a safety issue to be aware of.
Which coin dealers do you consider to be incredibly handsome?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@JBK said:
Until the person's photo was posted I don't know how the post could have been considered libelous.
Can you libel an unnamed and unpictured person? 🤔
One or more photos were included in the original report from Doug Davis, that was posted here.
And yes, you can be sued and lose a case for libel, even if you don’t use the person’s name.
I had stated until the person's photo was posted....
I thought the libel charge was based on the OP's post, which did not even include a link to the report.
Who would have a claim for libel if there was no name and no photo? Please let me know so I can start suing people for libel that is not directed at me by name or likeness.
Anyway, as often happens, this thread has become about something other than the intended subject.
BTW, I suspect that the strong circumstantial evidence would be enough for the police to investigate and collect evidence if they had the resources. There must be fingerprints on the tire spike and as-yet unidentified tracking device.
@amwldcoin said:
So now it's potential libel for posting a picture of someone who followed you home and was trespassing on your property?
Keep in mind his driveway is 300 ft long. Why would he get out of the car if he was an angel? The guy was trying to find his car!
1 thing I haven't mentioned and I don't think anyone involved has thought of. The potential criminals must have had a police scanner as they took off right before the cops arrived. He also told me the guy had a Bluetooth in his ear so he was either communicating with his partner or it was linked to the tracker on the car.
He also told me he has a tracker detector but thinks the tracker is one of the more advanced motion activated tracking devices.
Please stop with your straw-man argument. No one said the person was an “angel”, a good guy or anything resembling that. If he was trespassing, that wouldn’t make him a thief. And even if he would have stolen something if given the opportunity, unless or until he did, that wouldn’t make him a thief.
If someone plots a crime, but doesn’t end up committing it, they’re not guilty of that crime. Surely you’re intelligent enough to understand the difference. So the only explanation I can think of is that you choose not to acknowledge it. That’s your prerogative, but no matter how much you might dislike it. the legal system sees it differently.
@JBK said:
Until the person's photo was posted I don't know how the post could have been considered libelous.
Can you libel an unnamed and unpictured person? 🤔
One or more photos were included in the original report from Doug Davis, that was posted here.
And yes, you can be sued and lose a case for libel, even if you don’t use the person’s name.
I had stated until the person's photo was posted....
I thought the libel charge was based on the OP's post, which did not even include a link to the report.
Who would have a claim for libel if there was no name and no photo? Please let me know so I can start suing people for libel that is not directed at me by name or likeness.
Anyway, as often happens, this thread has become about something other than the intended subject.
BTW, I suspect that the strong circumstantial evidence would be enough for the police to investigate and collect evidence if they had the resources. There must be fingerprints on the tire spike and as-yet unidentified tracking device.
@amwldcoin said:
So now it's potential libel for posting a picture of someone who followed you home and was trespassing on your property?
Keep in mind his driveway is 300 ft long. Why would he get out of the car if he was an angel? The guy was trying to find his car!
1 thing I haven't mentioned and I don't think anyone involved has thought of. The potential criminals must have had a police scanner as they took off right before the cops arrived. He also told me the guy had a Bluetooth in his ear so he was either communicating with his partner or it was linked to the tracker on the car.
He also told me he has a tracker detector but thinks the tracker is one of the more advanced motion activated tracking devices.
Please stop with your straw-man argument. No one said the person was an “angel”, a good guy or anything resembling that. If he was trespassing, that wouldn’t make him a thief. And even if he would have stolen something if given the opportunity, unless or until he did, that wouldn’t make him a thief.
If someone plots a crime, but doesn’t end up committing it, they’re not guilty of that crime. Surely you’re intelligent enough to understand the difference. So the only explanation I can think of is that you choose not to acknowledge it. That’s your prerogative, but no matter how much you might dislike it. the legal system sees it differently.
@JBK said:
Until the person's photo was posted I don't know how the post could have been considered libelous.
Can you libel an unnamed and unpictured person? 🤔
One or more photos were included in the original report from Doug Davis, that was posted here.
And yes, you can be sued and lose a case for libel, even if you don’t use the person’s name.
I had stated until the person's photo was posted....
I thought the libel charge was based on the OP's post, which did not even include a link to the report.
Who would have a claim for libel if there was no name and no photo? Please let me know so I can start suing people for libel that is not directed at me by name or likeness.
Anyway, as often happens, this thread has become about something other than the intended subject.
BTW, I suspect that the strong circumstantial evidence would be enough for the police to investigate and collect evidence if they had the resources. There must be fingerprints on the tire spike and as-yet unidentified tracking device.
@amwldcoin said:
So now it's potential libel for posting a picture of someone who followed you home and was trespassing on your property?
Keep in mind his driveway is 300 ft long. Why would he get out of the car if he was an angel? The guy was trying to find his car!
1 thing I haven't mentioned and I don't think anyone involved has thought of. The potential criminals must have had a police scanner as they took off right before the cops arrived. He also told me the guy had a Bluetooth in his ear so he was either communicating with his partner or it was linked to the tracker on the car.
He also told me he has a tracker detector but thinks the tracker is one of the more advanced motion activated tracking devices.
Please stop with your straw-man argument. No one said the person was an “angel”, a good guy or anything resembling that. If he was trespassing, that wouldn’t make him a thief. And even if he would have stolen something if given the opportunity, unless or until he did, that wouldn’t make him a thief.
If someone plots a crime, but doesn’t end up committing it, they’re not guilty of that crime. Surely you’re intelligent enough to understand the difference. So the only explanation I can think of is that you choose not to acknowledge it. That’s your prerogative, but no matter how much you might dislike it. the legal system sees it differently.
@hedgefundtradingdesk said:
In order for a statement to be libelous, a specific person or entity must be identified and defamed. It's not libelous to say things about an anonymous stranger because no public reputation is harmed.
Second, it's one thing for someone to act strangely at a coin show parking lot. They might be admiring the incredibly handsome coin dealers! But once they follow you to a gas station or a home, they are stalking which is itself a crime, whether they are known thieves, unknown thieves, or potential thieves.
Third, Apple introduced AirTag tracking devices last year. The stated reason is to help people find misplaced items. Put one on your car keys, or in your airport luggage. Then your Apple device can follow where the AirTag is going.
The problem with AirTags is they've been used on more than several occasions to track people home from bars, by slipping the device into a coat pocket or purse. Apple claims to deter this, by allowing fellow Apple users to scan for AirTags in proximity. Left unsaid is how non-Apple users are supposed to protect themselves. Buy a device from every manufacturer who also sells tracking devices?
I am curious if any members of the dealer or collector community have had experience with AirTags in their belongings or vehicles. It's definitely a safety issue to be aware of.
Which coin dealers do you consider to be incredibly handsome?😉
@JBK said:
Until the person's photo was posted I don't know how the post could have been considered libelous.
Can you libel an unnamed and unpictured person? 🤔
One or more photos were included in the original report from Doug Davis, that was posted here.
And yes, you can be sued and lose a case for libel, even if you don’t use the person’s name.
I had stated until the person's photo was posted....
I thought the libel charge was based on the OP's post, which did not even include a link to the report.
Who would have a claim for libel if there was no name and no photo? Please let me know so I can start suing people for libel that is not directed at me by name or likeness.
Anyway, as often happens, this thread has become about something other than the intended subject.
BTW, I suspect that the strong circumstantial evidence would be enough for the police to investigate and collect evidence if they had the resources. There must be fingerprints on the tire spike and as-yet unidentified tracking device.
@amwldcoin said:
So now it's potential libel for posting a picture of someone who followed you home and was trespassing on your property?
Keep in mind his driveway is 300 ft long. Why would he get out of the car if he was an angel? The guy was trying to find his car!
1 thing I haven't mentioned and I don't think anyone involved has thought of. The potential criminals must have had a police scanner as they took off right before the cops arrived. He also told me the guy had a Bluetooth in his ear so he was either communicating with his partner or it was linked to the tracker on the car.
He also told me he has a tracker detector but thinks the tracker is one of the more advanced motion activated tracking devices.
Please stop with your straw-man argument. No one said the person was an “angel”, a good guy or anything resembling that. If he was trespassing, that wouldn’t make him a thief. And even if he would have stolen something if given the opportunity, unless or until he did, that wouldn’t make him a thief.
If someone plots a crime, but doesn’t end up committing it, they’re not guilty of that crime. Surely you’re intelligent enough to understand the difference. So the only explanation I can think of is that you choose not to acknowledge it. That’s your prerogative, but no matter how much you might dislike it. the legal system sees it differently.
This is not true…
Please point out what’s not true.
Plotting a crime is not a crime.
Putting a spike under someone's tire is a crime, I imagine, as is trespassing, as is (presumably) tracking someone by attaching a device to their car.
And any of those things are probable cause for the police to search the potential thieves. I suspect at that point the charges would pile up pretty quickly.
@JBK said:
Until the person's photo was posted I don't know how the post could have been considered libelous.
Can you libel an unnamed and unpictured person? 🤔
One or more photos were included in the original report from Doug Davis, that was posted here.
And yes, you can be sued and lose a case for libel, even if you don’t use the person’s name.
I had stated until the person's photo was posted....
I thought the libel charge was based on the OP's post, which did not even include a link to the report.
Who would have a claim for libel if there was no name and no photo? Please let me know so I can start suing people for libel that is not directed at me by name or likeness.
Anyway, as often happens, this thread has become about something other than the intended subject.
BTW, I suspect that the strong circumstantial evidence would be enough for the police to investigate and collect evidence if they had the resources. There must be fingerprints on the tire spike and as-yet unidentified tracking device.
@amwldcoin said:
So now it's potential libel for posting a picture of someone who followed you home and was trespassing on your property?
Keep in mind his driveway is 300 ft long. Why would he get out of the car if he was an angel? The guy was trying to find his car!
1 thing I haven't mentioned and I don't think anyone involved has thought of. The potential criminals must have had a police scanner as they took off right before the cops arrived. He also told me the guy had a Bluetooth in his ear so he was either communicating with his partner or it was linked to the tracker on the car.
He also told me he has a tracker detector but thinks the tracker is one of the more advanced motion activated tracking devices.
Please stop with your straw-man argument. No one said the person was an “angel”, a good guy or anything resembling that. If he was trespassing, that wouldn’t make him a thief. And even if he would have stolen something if given the opportunity, unless or until he did, that wouldn’t make him a thief.
If someone plots a crime, but doesn’t end up committing it, they’re not guilty of that crime. Surely you’re intelligent enough to understand the difference. So the only explanation I can think of is that you choose not to acknowledge it. That’s your prerogative, but no matter how much you might dislike it. the legal system sees it differently.
This is not true…
Please point out what’s not true.
Plotting a crime is not a crime.
Sorry, if I wasn’t clear. I didn’t mean to imply that it can’t be a crime to plot a crime. On the other hand, I’ve stated repeatedly, that what the subject person is said to have done does not make him a thief. Some posters either don’t get that distinction or don’t care about legalities. And just because some of us do, doesn’t mean we’re not equally upset by the details of the posted report.
I’m glad that the OP changed the thread title and am now done with this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@JBK said:
Until the person's photo was posted I don't know how the post could have been considered libelous.
Can you libel an unnamed and unpictured person? 🤔
One or more photos were included in the original report from Doug Davis, that was posted here.
And yes, you can be sued and lose a case for libel, even if you don’t use the person’s name.
I had stated until the person's photo was posted....
I thought the libel charge was based on the OP's post, which did not even include a link to the report.
Who would have a claim for libel if there was no name and no photo? Please let me know so I can start suing people for libel that is not directed at me by name or likeness.
Anyway, as often happens, this thread has become about something other than the intended subject.
BTW, I suspect that the strong circumstantial evidence would be enough for the police to investigate and collect evidence if they had the resources. There must be fingerprints on the tire spike and as-yet unidentified tracking device.
@amwldcoin said:
So now it's potential libel for posting a picture of someone who followed you home and was trespassing on your property?
Keep in mind his driveway is 300 ft long. Why would he get out of the car if he was an angel? The guy was trying to find his car!
1 thing I haven't mentioned and I don't think anyone involved has thought of. The potential criminals must have had a police scanner as they took off right before the cops arrived. He also told me the guy had a Bluetooth in his ear so he was either communicating with his partner or it was linked to the tracker on the car.
He also told me he has a tracker detector but thinks the tracker is one of the more advanced motion activated tracking devices.
Please stop with your straw-man argument. No one said the person was an “angel”, a good guy or anything resembling that. If he was trespassing, that wouldn’t make him a thief. And even if he would have stolen something if given the opportunity, unless or until he did, that wouldn’t make him a thief.
If someone plots a crime, but doesn’t end up committing it, they’re not guilty of that crime. Surely you’re intelligent enough to understand the difference. So the only explanation I can think of is that you choose not to acknowledge it. That’s your prerogative, but no matter how much you might dislike it. the legal system sees it differently.
This is not true…
Please point out what’s not true.
Plotting a crime is not a crime.
Sorry, if I wasn’t clear. I didn’t mean to imply that it can’t be a crime to plot a crime. On the other hand, I’ve stated repeatedly, that what the subject person is said to have done does not make him a thief. Some posters either don’t get that distinction or don’t care about legalities. And just because some of us do, doesn’t mean we’re not equally upset by the details of the posted report.
I’m glad that the OP changed the thread title and am now done with this thread.
You can’t be wrong about everything and then run away. That’s no fun.
Calling him a thief doesn’t make it libelous just because he hadn’t committed the crime.
Not only did the unknown person commit a crime by putting this person in fear with his actions and following him but the argument could be made that he did intend to steal the dealer’s property based on the totality of the circumstances. This is an inchoate crime. Police would have had justification stopping this gentleman, interviewing him and possibly searching him.
In order to bring a defamation suit against someone you have to prove there was no legal justification for the statement. There clearly is here, whether or not he committed the crime of theft
In his left hand, in the first pic it looks like a vape pen? Second shot his left hand looks like he may be holding a mini camera? Too fuzzy really to tell what either hand is holding. If the nail in a cardboard trick would have worked it would have been highly dangerous for the dealer. I hope the dealer knows to beef up security.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
@amwldcoin said:
Please repost the pictures as this is my stomping grounds.
I'll tell ya a good one. Years ago at the Cincinatti show me and another dealer were pulled from the show by the FBI. They were total assholes and wouldn't tell us anything other than wanting to know if we knew the person they showed us pictures of. To make a long story short it turns out mine and the other guys car were photographed by the suspect at another show and they were hunting him on a murder warrant.
On the way home 3 of us trained together driving home. I was the 1st to pull up to a gas pump and a car came flying up, 2 guys got out looking at me as my friend pulled up to the next pump. When they saw we knew each other they hauled ass. Nah, they weren't following me. The other dealer was not one of the guys riding home with me.
just for the sake of us doing a better job in the future.
did you ask the gas station/coin show hosting center if they could provide a screenshot of the vehicle/persons you felt were stalking you? i'd use the term stalking or worse.
do you have a no trespassing sign(s) on your property? i'm getting the feeling that if something does happen, to you or anyone of us, that having a sign(s) up in clear view may not be very eye-appealing but be very legally useful if something violent happens in the act of protecting one's property, self and family. (best to check with each of our state's no retreat laws and more)
i do hope there is some show-to-show communication regarding sharing images of suspects/perpetraitors/vehicles/plates amongst each other. then a sort of scrapbook for near victims/victims can look through. seems crazy but identification of these dirtbags will much more easily lead to local or preferably federal charges.
hey tesla guys, this is your time to shine!
i personally have a sore spot with numismatic crime especially because of the amount of extreme violence that too often accompanies it.
@hedgefundtradingdesk said:
In order for a statement to be libelous, a specific person or entity must be identified and defamed. It's not libelous to say things about an anonymous stranger because no public reputation is harmed.
Second, it's one thing for someone to act strangely at a coin show parking lot. They might be admiring the incredibly handsome coin dealers! But once they follow you to a gas station or a home, they are stalking which is itself a crime, whether they are known thieves, unknown thieves, or potential thieves.
Third, Apple introduced AirTag tracking devices last year. The stated reason is to help people find misplaced items. Put one on your car keys, or in your airport luggage. Then your Apple device can follow where the AirTag is going.
The problem with AirTags is they've been used on more than several occasions to track people home from bars, by slipping the device into a coat pocket or purse. Apple claims to deter this, by allowing fellow Apple users to scan for AirTags in proximity. Left unsaid is how non-Apple users are supposed to protect themselves. Buy a device from every manufacturer who also sells tracking devices?
I am curious if any members of the dealer or collector community have had experience with AirTags in their belongings or vehicles. It's definitely a safety issue to be aware of.
Funny thing but yesterday my friend was showing me one of his air tags, he encouraged me to carry it on my person for the day, and it took a few hours, but later that evening my phone sent me an alert that there was a tracking device with me. A little comforting that the phone did that. (iPhone 13)
@asheland said:
Anyone that puts a tracker on another person or their vehicle without their knowledge should serve 5 years in prison in my opinion.
Car lots do it all The time 😂 pretty crappy but they’re allowed to.
I’ve put a few on myself and almost been bit by a pit bull in the process 🤐
I agree, but not exactly the same, if they’re just trying to protect their investment (the car dealer) in case of people not paying, I understand that, I really mean people that do it in order to stalk someone.
@asheland said:
Anyone that puts a tracker on another person or their vehicle without their knowledge should serve 5 years in prison in my opinion.
Car lots do it all The time 😂 pretty crappy but they’re allowed to.
I’ve put a few on myself and almost been bit by a pit bull in the process 🤐
I agree, but not exactly the same, if they’re just trying to protect their investment (the car dealer) in case of people not paying, I understand that, I really mean people that do it in order to stalk someone.
@JBK said:
Until the person's photo was posted I don't know how the post could have been considered libelous.
Can you libel an unnamed and unpictured person? 🤔
One or more photos were included in the original report from Doug Davis, that was posted here.
And yes, you can be sued and lose a case for libel, even if you don’t use the person’s name.
I had stated until the person's photo was posted....
I thought the libel charge was based on the OP's post, which did not even include a link to the report.
Who would have a claim for libel if there was no name and no photo? Please let me know so I can start suing people for libel that is not directed at me by name or likeness.
Anyway, as often happens, this thread has become about something other than the intended subject.
BTW, I suspect that the strong circumstantial evidence would be enough for the police to investigate and collect evidence if they had the resources. There must be fingerprints on the tire spike and as-yet unidentified tracking device.
@amwldcoin said:
So now it's potential libel for posting a picture of someone who followed you home and was trespassing on your property?
Keep in mind his driveway is 300 ft long. Why would he get out of the car if he was an angel? The guy was trying to find his car!
1 thing I haven't mentioned and I don't think anyone involved has thought of. The potential criminals must have had a police scanner as they took off right before the cops arrived. He also told me the guy had a Bluetooth in his ear so he was either communicating with his partner or it was linked to the tracker on the car.
He also told me he has a tracker detector but thinks the tracker is one of the more advanced motion activated tracking devices.
No one said that it was potential libel, just for posting a picture. In case you really didn’t already get it, the issue is calling someone a “thief”, when, as much as you might wish it, has not been proved. And please stop with your straw-man argument. No one said the person was an “angel”, a good guy or anything resembling that. If he was trespassing, that wouldn’t make him a thief. And even if he would have stolen something if given the opportunity, unless or until he did, that wouldn’t make him a thief.
If someone plots a crime, but doesn’t end up committing it, they’re not guilty of that crime. Surely you’re intelligent enough to understand the difference. So the only explanation I can think of is that you choose not to acknowledge it. That’s your prerogative, but no matter how much you might dislike it. the legal system sees it differently.
Hmmm, There are a good many people being arrested and prosecuted for planned mass shootings or terrorist attacks, Even though they were caught before they were able to follow through. I agree with this 100% but that trumps your argument as they hadn't committed the crime yet.
It's time for more people to be more proactive and post information like is being posted in this thread!
@JBK said:
Until the person's photo was posted I don't know how the post could have been considered libelous.
Can you libel an unnamed and unpictured person? 🤔
One or more photos were included in the original report from Doug Davis, that was posted here.
And yes, you can be sued and lose a case for libel, even if you don’t use the person’s name.
I had stated until the person's photo was posted....
I thought the libel charge was based on the OP's post, which did not even include a link to the report.
Who would have a claim for libel if there was no name and no photo? Please let me know so I can start suing people for libel that is not directed at me by name or likeness.
Anyway, as often happens, this thread has become about something other than the intended subject.
BTW, I suspect that the strong circumstantial evidence would be enough for the police to investigate and collect evidence if they had the resources. There must be fingerprints on the tire spike and as-yet unidentified tracking device.
@amwldcoin said:
So now it's potential libel for posting a picture of someone who followed you home and was trespassing on your property?
Keep in mind his driveway is 300 ft long. Why would he get out of the car if he was an angel? The guy was trying to find his car!
1 thing I haven't mentioned and I don't think anyone involved has thought of. The potential criminals must have had a police scanner as they took off right before the cops arrived. He also told me the guy had a Bluetooth in his ear so he was either communicating with his partner or it was linked to the tracker on the car.
He also told me he has a tracker detector but thinks the tracker is one of the more advanced motion activated tracking devices.
Please stop with your straw-man argument. No one said the person was an “angel”, a good guy or anything resembling that. If he was trespassing, that wouldn’t make him a thief. And even if he would have stolen something if given the opportunity, unless or until he did, that wouldn’t make him a thief.
If someone plots a crime, but doesn’t end up committing it, they’re not guilty of that crime. Surely you’re intelligent enough to understand the difference. So the only explanation I can think of is that you choose not to acknowledge it. That’s your prerogative, but no matter how much you might dislike it. the legal system sees it differently.
This is not true…
Please point out what’s not true. I’m guessing you were thinking that someone can be guilty of an attempted crime (such as attempted murder, as opposed to murder). That would be correct, but what the person pictured in this thread is said to have done, does not make him a thief.
Mark! When are you going to learn to stop picking nits! It's quite obvious what this person's intentions were. Personally I think you should learn as I have(well a lot more than before!) when it's best to bite your tongue!
@amwldcoin said:
Please repost the pictures as this is my stomping grounds.
I'll tell ya a good one. Years ago at the Cincinatti show me and another dealer were pulled from the show by the FBI. They were total assholes and wouldn't tell us anything other than wanting to know if we knew the person they showed us pictures of. To make a long story short it turns out mine and the other guys car were photographed by the suspect at another show and they were hunting him on a murder warrant.
On the way home 3 of us trained together driving home. I was the 1st to pull up to a gas pump and a car came flying up, 2 guys got out looking at me as my friend pulled up to the next pump. When they saw we knew each other they hauled ass. Nah, they weren't following me. The other dealer was not one of the guys riding home with me.
just for the sake of us doing a better job in the future.
did you ask the gas station/coin show hosting center if they could provide a screenshot of the vehicle/persons you felt were stalking you? i'd use the term stalking or worse.
do you have a no trespassing sign(s) on your property? i'm getting the feeling that if something does happen, to you or anyone of us, that having a sign(s) up in clear view may not be very eye-appealing but be very legally useful if something violent happens in the act of protecting one's property, self and family. (best to check with each of our state's no retreat laws and more)
i do hope there is some show-to-show communication regarding sharing images of suspects/perpetraitors/vehicles/plates amongst each other. then a sort of scrapbook for near victims/victims can look through. seems crazy but identification of these dirtbags will much more easily lead to local or preferably federal charges.
hey tesla guys, this is your time to shine!
i personally have a sore spot with numismatic crime especially because of the amount of extreme violence that too often accompanies it.
It wasn't me!
His security is top notch is the reason he avoided being robbed IMHO! Very few are up to snuff on this! I will know and can be standing on my deck with a gun pointed at you before you can see my house if you are coming up my driveway!
@hedgefundtradingdesk said:
In order for a statement to be libelous, a specific person or entity must be identified and defamed. It's not libelous to say things about an anonymous stranger because no public reputation is harmed.
Second, it's one thing for someone to act strangely at a coin show parking lot. They might be admiring the incredibly handsome coin dealers! But once they follow you to a gas station or a home, they are stalking which is itself a crime, whether they are known thieves, unknown thieves, or potential thieves.
Third, Apple introduced AirTag tracking devices last year. The stated reason is to help people find misplaced items. Put one on your car keys, or in your airport luggage. Then your Apple device can follow where the AirTag is going.
The problem with AirTags is they've been used on more than several occasions to track people home from bars, by slipping the device into a coat pocket or purse. Apple claims to deter this, by allowing fellow Apple users to scan for AirTags in proximity. Left unsaid is how non-Apple users are supposed to protect themselves. Buy a device from every manufacturer who also sells tracking devices?
I am curious if any members of the dealer or collector community have had experience with AirTags in their belongings or vehicles. It's definitely a safety issue to be aware of.
I'm guessing you're not a lawyer. You're saying that I can publicly post a picture without a name and accuse that person of any heinous act that I want and it's not libel? I think the picture is sufficient to make this libelous.
Edited to add: if you are a lawyer and believe you can't be sued, you should volunteer pro Bono for Amber Heard. She was sued and she lost without having ever named Johnny Depp.
Ok, can we all just agree that this person engaged in behavior that the dealer involved thought was suspicious?
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
@hedgefundtradingdesk said:
In order for a statement to be libelous, a specific person or entity must be identified and defamed. It's not libelous to say things about an anonymous stranger because no public reputation is harmed.
Second, it's one thing for someone to act strangely at a coin show parking lot. They might be admiring the incredibly handsome coin dealers! But once they follow you to a gas station or a home, they are stalking which is itself a crime, whether they are known thieves, unknown thieves, or potential thieves.
Third, Apple introduced AirTag tracking devices last year. The stated reason is to help people find misplaced items. Put one on your car keys, or in your airport luggage. Then your Apple device can follow where the AirTag is going.
The problem with AirTags is they've been used on more than several occasions to track people home from bars, by slipping the device into a coat pocket or purse. Apple claims to deter this, by allowing fellow Apple users to scan for AirTags in proximity. Left unsaid is how non-Apple users are supposed to protect themselves. Buy a device from every manufacturer who also sells tracking devices?
I am curious if any members of the dealer or collector community have had experience with AirTags in their belongings or vehicles. It's definitely a safety issue to be aware of.
I'm guessing you're not a lawyer. You're saying that I can publicly post a picture without a name and accuse that person of any heinous act that I want and it's not libel? I think the picture is sufficient to make this libelous.
Edited to add: if you are a lawyer and believe you can't be sued, you should volunteer pro Bono for Amber Heard. She was sued and she lost without having ever named Johnny Depp.
Mark went to law school. He's just trying to help.
The law is interpreted differently by different states. You've got to know your state law.
In AZ, if that guy was loitering at a bourse and then was on your property, he would never do that again. Sheriff's office steps up quickly re stalking complaints.
I have to admit that this post is very dramatic, and the story raises reasonable concerns. I hope local authorities take an interest in this and provide meaningful guidance. However, I know that resources these days might lead to a dead-end (no pun intended)! I do not think anyone here would disagree with the statement that the event is suspicious and the event is scary, no matter how you interpret it.
@jmlanzaf said:
Edited to add: if you are a lawyer and believe you can't be sued, you should volunteer pro Bono for Amber Heard. She was sued and she lost without having ever named Johnny Depp.
A lot of people are losing the plot: a coin dealer was followed home from a coin show.
Most coin crimes are crimes of opportunity: stolen mail, robbed hotel rooms, and an occasional car break-in.
If would-be robbers start following people home, many of us would like to know what to watch out for and protect against.
I pointed out that it's incredibly easy to follow someone using an AirTag. It's just speculation, but if someone planted an AirTag, they would definitely want the AirTag back so they can't be be traced back to the matching iPhone. It's entirely possible this person wanted to destroy the evidence rather than to enter the home.
As for libel, the legal threshold is malice and defamation. In America, of course you can be sued for anything, but ultimately a jury decides on guilt, not a law school. Heard met the legal standard (writing 'survivor' opinion pieces for national new publications while going through divorce, and causing Depp to lose movie roles). Ultimately the jury decides whether she actually 'did it' and the details are far beyond the scope of a pcgs forum.
If would-be robbers start following people home, many of us would like to know what to watch out for and protect against.
fwiw, there is no start. it has already been going on well before i got into the game 10+ years ago. unfortunately, like myself, people here know dealers/collectors that have been murdered in numismatics, robbed at their homes, kept captive, robbed in their cars or while at a restaurant, killed in their shops and/or just robbed while there or not.
tbh, i probably wasn't as vigilant as i should have been when doing a bunch of shows/shops per year although i never set up at a show but stayed the full duration of many, including helping dealers pack up or load up or unload.
Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.
This is a coin forum, not a court of law.
Further accusations like this could result in a ban.
As a side note, if you are anywhere and see what you perceive as a crime, please let the authorities know right away. Don't wait until you get home and post it on a forum with hope that justice will be carried out.
Comments
Which coin dealers do you consider to be incredibly handsome?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Plotting a crime is not a crime.
BHNC #248 … 121 and counting.
Sometimes.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Correct.
BHNC #248 … 121 and counting.
Can I rule some out or is that libelous 😜
BHNC #248 … 121 and counting.
Putting a spike under someone's tire is a crime, I imagine, as is trespassing, as is (presumably) tracking someone by attaching a device to their car.
And any of those things are probable cause for the police to search the potential thieves. I suspect at that point the charges would pile up pretty quickly.
Sorry, if I wasn’t clear. I didn’t mean to imply that it can’t be a crime to plot a crime. On the other hand, I’ve stated repeatedly, that what the subject person is said to have done does not make him a thief. Some posters either don’t get that distinction or don’t care about legalities. And just because some of us do, doesn’t mean we’re not equally upset by the details of the posted report.
I’m glad that the OP changed the thread title and am now done with this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You can’t be wrong about everything and then run away. That’s no fun.
Calling him a thief doesn’t make it libelous just because he hadn’t committed the crime.
Not only did the unknown person commit a crime by putting this person in fear with his actions and following him but the argument could be made that he did intend to steal the dealer’s property based on the totality of the circumstances. This is an inchoate crime. Police would have had justification stopping this gentleman, interviewing him and possibly searching him.
In order to bring a defamation suit against someone you have to prove there was no legal justification for the statement. There clearly is here, whether or not he committed the crime of theft
BHNC #248 … 121 and counting.
In his left hand, in the first pic it looks like a vape pen? Second shot his left hand looks like he may be holding a mini camera? Too fuzzy really to tell what either hand is holding. If the nail in a cardboard trick would have worked it would have been highly dangerous for the dealer. I hope the dealer knows to beef up security.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
just for the sake of us doing a better job in the future.
did you ask the gas station/coin show hosting center if they could provide a screenshot of the vehicle/persons you felt were stalking you? i'd use the term stalking or worse.
do you have a no trespassing sign(s) on your property? i'm getting the feeling that if something does happen, to you or anyone of us, that having a sign(s) up in clear view may not be very eye-appealing but be very legally useful if something violent happens in the act of protecting one's property, self and family. (best to check with each of our state's no retreat laws and more)
i do hope there is some show-to-show communication regarding sharing images of suspects/perpetraitors/vehicles/plates amongst each other. then a sort of scrapbook for near victims/victims can look through. seems crazy but identification of these dirtbags will much more easily lead to local or preferably federal charges.
hey tesla guys, this is your time to shine!
i personally have a sore spot with numismatic crime especially because of the amount of extreme violence that too often accompanies it.
Funny thing but yesterday my friend was showing me one of his air tags, he encouraged me to carry it on my person for the day, and it took a few hours, but later that evening my phone sent me an alert that there was a tracking device with me. A little comforting that the phone did that. (iPhone 13)
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Anyone that puts a tracker on another person or their vehicle without their knowledge should serve 5 years in prison in my opinion.
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Car lots do it all The time 😂 pretty crappy but they’re allowed to.
I’ve put a few on myself and almost been bit by a pit bull in the process 🤐
BHNC #248 … 121 and counting.
I agree, but not exactly the same, if they’re just trying to protect their investment (the car dealer) in case of people not paying, I understand that, I really mean people that do it in order to stalk someone.
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That’s pretty rare.
BHNC #248 … 121 and counting.
Hmmm, There are a good many people being arrested and prosecuted for planned mass shootings or terrorist attacks, Even though they were caught before they were able to follow through. I agree with this 100% but that trumps your argument as they hadn't committed the crime yet.
It's time for more people to be more proactive and post information like is being posted in this thread!
Mark! When are you going to learn to stop picking nits! It's quite obvious what this person's intentions were. Personally I think you should learn as I have(well a lot more than before!) when it's best to bite your tongue!
It wasn't me!
His security is top notch is the reason he avoided being robbed IMHO! Very few are up to snuff on this! I will know and can be standing on my deck with a gun pointed at you before you can see my house if you are coming up my driveway!
I'm guessing you're not a lawyer. You're saying that I can publicly post a picture without a name and accuse that person of any heinous act that I want and it's not libel? I think the picture is sufficient to make this libelous.
Edited to add: if you are a lawyer and believe you can't be sued, you should volunteer pro Bono for Amber Heard. She was sued and she lost without having ever named Johnny Depp.
Ok, can we all just agree that this person engaged in behavior that the dealer involved thought was suspicious?
This is not libel.
BHNC #248 … 121 and counting.
Mark went to law school. He's just trying to help.
The law is interpreted differently by different states. You've got to know your state law.
In AZ, if that guy was loitering at a bourse and then was on your property, he would never do that again. Sheriff's office steps up quickly re stalking complaints.
I have to admit that this post is very dramatic, and the story raises reasonable concerns. I hope local authorities take an interest in this and provide meaningful guidance. However, I know that resources these days might lead to a dead-end (no pun intended)! I do not think anyone here would disagree with the statement that the event is suspicious and the event is scary, no matter how you interpret it.
Always be aware of your surroundings.
If you don't have a concealed carry permit think about getting one.
A lot of people are losing the plot: a coin dealer was followed home from a coin show.
Most coin crimes are crimes of opportunity: stolen mail, robbed hotel rooms, and an occasional car break-in.
If would-be robbers start following people home, many of us would like to know what to watch out for and protect against.
I pointed out that it's incredibly easy to follow someone using an AirTag. It's just speculation, but if someone planted an AirTag, they would definitely want the AirTag back so they can't be be traced back to the matching iPhone. It's entirely possible this person wanted to destroy the evidence rather than to enter the home.
As for libel, the legal threshold is malice and defamation. In America, of course you can be sued for anything, but ultimately a jury decides on guilt, not a law school. Heard met the legal standard (writing 'survivor' opinion pieces for national new publications while going through divorce, and causing Depp to lose movie roles). Ultimately the jury decides whether she actually 'did it' and the details are far beyond the scope of a pcgs forum.
.
fwiw, there is no start. it has already been going on well before i got into the game 10+ years ago. unfortunately, like myself, people here know dealers/collectors that have been murdered in numismatics, robbed at their homes, kept captive, robbed in their cars or while at a restaurant, killed in their shops and/or just robbed while there or not.
tbh, i probably wasn't as vigilant as i should have been when doing a bunch of shows/shops per year although i never set up at a show but stayed the full duration of many, including helping dealers pack up or load up or unload.
Please review:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1009079/pcgs-forum-rules-and-guidelines-updated-4-19-2021
Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.
This is a coin forum, not a court of law.
Further accusations like this could result in a ban.
As a side note, if you are anywhere and see what you perceive as a crime, please let the authorities know right away. Don't wait until you get home and post it on a forum with hope that justice will be carried out.