Error Coinage Stolen At Mint
OAKSTAR
Posts: 7,743 ✭✭✭✭✭
Oh, so that's how they get out!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
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Comments
Sometimes it is. There are different ways errors are made and different ways they leave the mint.
Part 2 of the "Slab Lab" interview with @FredWeinberg was just recently posted on YouTube by PCGS.
Watch the first 8 minutes of this video for a great summary of this issue from Fred himself:
Stamp this one "Suspicions Confirmed"! But only Two Weeks??
@ErrorsOnCoins WOW! I never seen anything remotely close to your triple dates ☺️
Thank you for sharing
It's apparently a tradition! 😂 🤣 🤑
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
What do you expect when the only consequence for theft is a 14 day suspension?
AND no prosecution!!!
After 2 weeks off he can start again
Are you kidding me!
You get more for sealing a candy bar. What are they thinking?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
If people are willing to pay lots of money for fancy errors, somebody will try to supply them.
Sure . Give the thief time off, a raise, and probably a promotion.
This is an amazing situation. Actually verified theft, no prosecution, and a simple suspension - after which, back on the job. Unbelievable. Cheers, RickO
I was still a Federal employee only a couple years ago and I would've been fired on the spot for just lying about my mileage...I need a part time job at the mint as I approach retirement, I'm only about 5 miles away lol! I'm not looking to be a thief, but the culture there seems kinda casual. Maybe I could do some "networking" too
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
You and me both. The two number one reasons for immediate dismissal and removal,.. stealing and time card fraud. As soon as you were accused or suspected of that, you would find yourself relocated to the loading dock until the investigation was over.....then you would be shown the door! It was a two step process, loading dock with pay, fired and out the door with possible prosecution. I guess times have changed!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Putting my application in as we speak!..................
Just a WAG, but maybe the investigation only considered the face value of the items in question, not their potential value as errors.
There was also a guy terminated for stealing money from the coffee fund in the break area. 👎🏻
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Would they be that naive, though? They did the whole waffling thing to keep errors out of our hands because they knew the value in the collector market.
So there are legitimate error coins and non legitimate error coins... And there are employee made errors and naturally occurring errors. And post mint man made errors coins.
I won't buy a post mint man made error coin that's for sure.
I feel better buying a naturally occurring error coin that escaped from the mint naturally in the course of business...
Ethical question: Should I buy or bid on a error coin that was stolen from the mint?
And the other side?
Please be a W! Please be a W! Please be a W! Please be a W!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Another ethical question….Should a dealer be selling a known stolen error coin?
The U.S. Government knew in the 1970’s about the proof errors that were in the oil pans, knew in 2000 about the mules, and knew in 2003 about the proof errors sold by the State of CA after reviewed by the Secret Service.
They have not made ANY effort whatsoever to retrieve any of these from a HA, SB or GC auction.
Furthermore, there has been NO effort to retrieve them from coin dealers or collectors who have handled these proof error coins in the last 50 years, or mules in the last 20+ years.
The same thing applies to the intentionally struck 1913 Liberty Head Nickels, that were taken out of the Mint, and many other U.S. coin rarities.
The article is about Denver ....
There was a thread last week about the obverse of a Sacagawea dollar muled with the reverse of a South Carolina State Quarter.
And I had to ask the question….how in the world was it legal to even possess such a coin. It was illegally coined and illegally taken from the Mint premises. Well, I got a bit of pushback for making these statements and lo and behold here we are with this thread. I’ve got one question, who would stand to benefit from this the most beside the Mint employee himself who stole them? Also, I think we can all agree that what the Mint employee did was unethical. But how far reaching is it?
Just because the government turns a blind eye to these illegal error coins doesn’t make it any less unethical, or illegal. In fact, the government is complicit. There is a rule of law, whether or not the government or anyone else wants to acknowledge it. Willful ignorance (blindness) is not a viable defense or excuse in a court of law either.
I buy and sell thousands upon thousands of major error coins.
I have never knowing bought an illegal (stolen from the mint) error coin.
I know zero mint employees. I have no mint contacts.
No one knows for sure how or the vast majority of major error coins come about.
For sure there are shenanigans but most are mistakes or machinery failures.
The added mystery just adds to the appeal to me.
I find everything about error coinage fascinating
I believe the mint is a Union shop. Firing a Union employee that doesn't have a record of discipline issues can be very difficult, costly, and time consuming. The Union may support their member with legal action depending on the situation.
Depending on the evidence, sometimes it's easier to come to an agreement than it is to press the issue. 12 days is a significant suspension. Once the company lawyers have to get involved, costs skyrocket. Just my thoughts based on previous experiences
I am not condoning what has occured.
I was just stating the facts.
The U.S. Government has made zero attempt to retrieve the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels or any coins in this discussion.
People can decide if they want to own a 1913 Liberty Head Nickel or a mule or proof error.
And obviously, as of July 10th, 2022 the U.S. Government has made no attempt to retrieve these.
The law will always be the law (unless it is repealed or amended) just as the truth will always be the truth. And let’s face it, there is ALOT of money to be made here. Especially on the more esoteric error coins. And who stands to benefit the most, besides the Mint employee who illegally manufactured the coin and illegally removed it from the Mint premises? That’s right. The very well-to-do.👌 You can find a green paper trail leading to and from just about anything. The more desirable, the more the money.
Actually, more money has been made on any of the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels that were intentionally produced and taken out of the Mint than any mint error.😉
Like I said, the more desirable the more the money. I don’t understand your point.
I have always wondered how some of the exotic error coins got out of the mint.
There’s a reason why we rarely ever hear the story. It’s intentionally kept hush-hush. They are trying to avoid any degree of culpability. Culpable deniability or plausible deniability.
I have always wondered how the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels physically got out of the Mint.🤔
“ I have always wondered how the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels physically got out of the Mint.🤔”
And this one:
And this one:
And this one:
And this one:
And this one:
And this one:
And this one:
Mike has the coolest coins
As Fred discussed in the video linked above, the Mint (wisely, I believe) directs their efforts toward fixing and preventing leaks of errors, rather than recovering the missing pieces, themselves.
It's one thing to say that, based on its morphology, a given error could not have left the Mint via normal channels, but quite another to prove that it was taken illegally. How much political capital and taxpayer funds should reasonably be spent in the legal system to pursue coins that, in all likelihood, cannot be linked to a crime by any direct evidence? The Mint has apparently decided "none", which is the only logical conclusion. Without proof attached to each specific coin, it would simply be a wasted effort.
Further, any situation where the government is obliged to seize coins from the public ought to be avoided whenever possible. The confiscation of the 1933 double eagles and 1974 aluminum cents created more bad will among collectors than just about anything else the government could have done.
@Byers
Ahhhhh…..mucho bravado👌😂🤣😅 a fine display 👍nice coins too, illegal or not👌 Wrong planchet errors are very legit. Sometimes leftover planchets remain stuck in the bin and go unnoticed. When the next denomination is being coined, the planchet becomes dislodged and bingo, you’ve got a wrong planchet error
Thanks Chris!
IkesT
Exactly!
Mike likes the older mysteries , while I am fascinated by current mysteries ....
From the Denver Mint ......
Nice mint error Chris!
According to @FredWeinberg in that thread, the US Government even did a press release on the Quarter/Sac mules so how far reaching is it?
@Zoins
Sounds like a non-issue! The Government is not interested in retrieving the mules.
Quite the contrary, it sounds like the Government was interested in marketing them from Fred's post.
Does anyone know? Did the unknown origins affect the collectability of these coins?
Here's a 1913 Liberty Head nickel handled by 3 forum members @ianrussell, @tradedollarnut, and @Dwight_M. Perhaps they can chime in?
There are certainly some people that say these coins are unethical to own, but it doesn't seem to hurt desirability, or may even increase desirability?
@Zoins
Everyone knows that these were intentionally struck and taken out of the Mint. They sell for millions and have some of the most respected numismatic pedigrees of all time!
If anyone knows how the 1913 Liberty Nickels made it out of the Mint, they haven’t spoken up. But you already knew that, didn’t you?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The article is on CoinWorld.com now:
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/error-coinage-reported-stolen-at-denver-mint
Given that the US Attorney's Office declined to prosecute, I wonder if the employee still works at the Mint:
I don't, but it seems like you're assuming I do. @tradedollarnut and others have been doing current research and recently discovered Mint records showing the Mint had 1913 Liberty Nickel dies made so we're learning new things all the time. He hasn't logged in since May 15 so perhaps my at mention will let him know we're discussing these coins again if he has new info.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I wasn’t assuming you knew. But with all of the reading and researching you seem to do and considering that the coins have been widely discussed for decades, I would have guessed you knew the answer to your question.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.