Proof Mercury Dime & Walking Liberty Half NGC-PCGS crossover/grading
dunkleosteus430
Posts: 476 ✭✭✭✭
On eBay, there are many proof mercury dimes and walking liberty halves graded by NGC as 67 or 68. These are often priced hundreds or even thousands of dollars less than the PCGS graded 67s and 68s. I am wondering if this is because PCGS is more strict regarding these issues or if it's just because NGC coins often just have a lower sale price for some reason. If one bought an NGC PF-68 Walker and tried to get a crossover to PCGS for the same grade, would it likely be successful or not? I'm just wondering because it does seem like many of the NGC graded proofs just seem to be of lesser quality than a PCGS coin at the same grade. Does anyone have experience with this, or had any crossover attempts, successful or unsuccessful? Any info is appreciated.
Two 1942 PR/PF-68 Walking Liberty Halves.
PCGS: virtually perfect, attractive original surfaces without much toning.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/373817532576?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=pEuWfRraS-u&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=ws-7tvnjshe&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
NGC: Splotchy, unattractive toning that decreases eye appeal. Not too much going on otherwise.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/363526381799?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=Lq6VKG1wRa6&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=ws-7tvnjshe&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Yes, I am wondering this because of this discussion:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1078045/where-are-all-the-walkers#latest
These Weinman designs are growing on me.
Happy 4th!
Young Numismatist
Comments
Woah, let's slow down. You gave NGC a hard time here, you chose one of the best 1942 proof halves in existence in PCGS plastic, the NGC coin just doesn't compare.
As a side note, I find NGC is much stricter on these based on the coins I have in hand. That's a personal experience. However, proof grading CANNOT be done from pictures, ever. It's a rule that one must abide by.
Let's break it down:
PCGS coin: Fantastic details, even original toning, contrasted reverse (partially). This should go for a sizable premium.
NGC coin: Weak detail, uneven toning, some haze. May or may not be a true 68. The coin should be a baseline for a lower priced 68. I instead offer this coin as a comparison:
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It's an NGC 68*. I would take this one over the PCGS coin now. Why, well it comes down to what makes these proofs special...
Color...Detail...Contrast
Look for those and you'll see the money follows. One last note if you will... when you get caught up in grade on these proofs, you will let some of the best coins pass by. I promise you. Don't ever buy these proofs because one is graded higher. Ever.
Coin Photographer.
Okay. I guess I did sort of look for a low end 68. You shared some great advice, and a beautiful coin. I haven't really started trying grading on anything until about a month ago. I watched some of the old PCGS grading webinars on YouTube today, and those have great information. I guess what I was really thinking was, why does there seem to be more high-grade proof walking liberty halves in NGC holders? Could it be because of grading fees or customizable holders? Sorry for my tone in the first post, I was just confused.
Young Numismatist
You can't possibly hope to grade a proof coin from images such as those shared.
Indeed, the great bulk of the weight toward modern proof coinage is through the placement, number and severity of hairlines and these hairlines can be accentuated or hidden with a simple lamp adjustment. Additionally, your "comparison" used a PCGS TrueView, where the coin is professionally imaged raw by PCGS, and compared it to a high throughput type of image for the NGC coin. The PCGS coin appears spectacular, but the NGC coin might also appear spectacular if it were shot under the conditions of the PCGS coin. Also, your statement that the NGC coin has "splotchy, unattractive toning that decreases eye appeal" would indicate to me that you have little, if any, experience translating brilliant proof coinage images to what you might expect to see in-hand. The NGC coin might have fabulous eye appeal in-hand.
You appear to be rather new and inexperienced. The greater market has generally favored PCGS vs. NGC for at least two decades and likely pushing a quarter century. In my opinion, as one that "was there" when they were essentially equal, NGC shot itself in the foot when they went full throttle to reward original surfaced coins with higher grades at the same time that PCGS went headlong into rewarding great luster and eye appeal. At that point, aesthetically challenged coins often went into NGC holders with very high assigned grades while pretty, attractive and desired coins went to PCGS and sold for high dollars. After about ten years of this divergent grading NGC appeared to change course and grade more along the lines of PCGS, but the market damage was done to the NGC brand.
Those with good eyes have made astounding money over the years playing grading arbitrage by picking out the nicest NGC coins and submitting them to PCGS in order to sell them to become more liquid and to higher either at the same grade or with a grade bump. I know, because I have done this as well. Over the decades this has led to a depletion of terrific coins in NGC holders and an increase in terrific coins in PCGS holders. Please note that all of this is generalization and individual coins still matter.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I think that @TomB shared some exceptional advice.
As to why it appears that NGC has more high graded coins, it's because there are. A quick look at the pop reports proves this, and there could be a few reasons. Perhaps NGC is a bit looser on 68s. Perhaps NGC just got the better coins. Perhaps NGC had a vast amount of crackouts when compared to PCGS. No one can know for sure. It's likely a combination of one or more factors.
Remember, there are fantastic coins in both kinds of plastic. The hand plays to the collector here, you have an opportunity to cherrypick for the best of the best. It's up to you to find the knowledge that can allow you to do this, and most importantly have the patience to do so. It will take years to find a perfect coin for you. Use that time to search every thread here and read every bit of it. Ask questions as frequently as possible as well, but make sure that the answer isn't right in front of you when you search the forums. Good luck!
Coin Photographer.
Buy the coin not the holder.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
... If one bought an NGC PF-68 Walker and tried to get a crossover to PCGS for the same grade, would it likely be successful or not?..."
Odds are very strongly against it, for a couple of reasons.
One is, that because of the large differences in price, many owners of such coins have already tried to cross them over into PCGS holders. Another is, that while there are certainly a good number of exceptions, PCGS tends to be stricter in its grading of those coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As indicated above, evaluating proof coins, to be effective, must be done 'in hand'. One must understand grading, examine all points (strike, details, luster, hairlines etc.), and make your decision. Eye appeal is subjective, and will differ among collectors. Cheers, RickO
I remember in an interview years ago with Maurice Rosen for his newsletter, Mark Salzberg from NGC talked about a high grade Walker their competitor had graded 68 as being a problem as they had graded it 67. He also mentioned the software they have to alert them to high grades like that before they go out the door. So it cuts both ways; strictness and grading go hand in hand.