New most ridiculous SNAD reason: *TONED* Coin removed from PCGS holder, whizzed, put back, resealed

airplanenut

I'm well aware that no eBay transactions are truly "no returns" because a buyer can always file a SNAD. I've decried bogus SNAD reasons before, but this one I recently got takes the cake. I normally just accept the return and let that be it, but this was a rare case where I thought replying was worthwhile simply to be on the record that no, this reasoning makes no sense. As an aside, I shared this with a friend at PCGS and, unsurprisingly, got a note from someone else at PCGS that they agree with my points.

Yes, the coin in question is Canadian, but the buyer also trades in US coinage, so, fair warning.

First, listing details:

Title: 1935 PCGS MS65 CANADA SILVER DOLLAR S$1
Description: A lustrous piece with lovely toning. Some parts of the raised edge of the slab on the reverse side have chipped.

TrueView (I didn't know this existed and it wasn't included in the listing. Depending on how you look at the coin, I think both it and my photos are accurate representations of the coin):

And now for the SNAD:

Buyer's message:

Reason for return: Doesn't seem authentic

Details: The reason this slab has the cracks on the back that you mentioned, is that the slab was broken open. If you look at the slabs seam all the way around with a 10x magnifier, you ll see that the slab was opened and resealed. The coin was removed, the obverse whizzed and then it was returned to the slab. The whizzing is obvious, it s not die polishing. I checked the image on the PCGS site and you can see the subtle differences. You say you don t accept returns, but this item is not authentic.

My reply: Hi, If you don't like a coin you receive, you are always welcome to return it--you just need to email me. The idea of selling a tampered coin/holder is not one that I take lightly, and I would like to address your concerns first:
1- The raised edge is a weak point on PCGS holders, and they routinely chip. This particular coin's holder chipped when sent to me, as did a few other holders because the sender didn't pad them very well.
2- PCGS holders, especially the newest style (like this one) are extremely hard. They require heavy duty snips or bolt cutters, or a band saw, to open the plastic, and doing so absolutely destroys the holder. You can look around the edge of any PCGS holder and see an opaque pattern around the seal with the naked eye--it's just how they look when sealed. Tampering would be extremely obvious to the naked eye, and magnification would definitely not be necessary.
3- Whizzing takes off a thin layer of metal from the coin. If this coin were whizzed, it would be stripped of its toning. The PCGS TrueView toning pattern matches the coin, indicating the surfaces have not been altered (whizzed or otherwise) since grading (had they been prior, PCGS would not have graded the coin). The before and after of a toned and then whizzed coin would be glaring, not subtle, differences. The differences in intensity and shade of color between my photos and those of PCGS can be attributed to lighting and my shooting through plastic while PCGS shoots the coin raw (Canadian silver dollars have a satiny lustre which illuminates best when directly lit, which can't be done without a significant glare if the coin is in a holder).
Again, if you wish to return the coin, that is fine, but I can absolutely assure you that the coin I photographed and sold is the exact one, untampered, which PCGS graded. Thank you, Jeremy Katz

Buyer replies: Good morning. Regardless, I would like to return the coin. I don't like returning items I purchased but, in this case, I am truly unhappy with the product, not casting any blame your way. Thank you.

Item comes back, refund gets issued, and buyer then leaves this positive feedback: "As described, prompt shipping, perfect transaction, thank you."

Oh, the joys of eBay. And yes, my blocked bidder list got a new addition.

FlyingAl

I don’t collect foreigns but that thing is stunning. The buyer missed out!

MFeld

Jeremy, your reply was excellent and hopefully, it made an impression on the (rather, if not completely clueless) buyer.

braddick

I'd imagine the underbidder might be interested as it is a beautiful gem dollar.

amwldcoin

So did the snad go through and you paid the return shipping?

Kliao

Many honest sellers will offer returns even if they indicate no returns on the listing. It's all about keeping the customer happy. This guy clearly did not want the coin and thought he had to create a ridiculous story in order to get a return accepted by the seller. Being nice and sincere in a message can get you just that without all the drama.

dollarfan

I don't do Canadian dollars but that is a beauty!

airplanenut

@amwldcoin said:
So did the snad go through and you paid the return shipping?

Of course, because eBay couldn't know for sure which one of us was right.

@Kliao said:
Many honest sellers will offer returns even if they indicate no returns on the listing. It's all about keeping the customer happy. This guy clearly did not want the coin and thought he had to create a ridiculous story in order to get a return accepted by the seller. Being nice and sincere in a message can get you just that without all the drama.

And I do. It's even all written out in the listing. A quick message and I'd have taken it back no problem.

amwldcoin

@airplanenut said:

@amwldcoin said:
So did the snad go through and you paid the return shipping?

Of course, because eBay couldn't know for sure which one of us was right.

@Kliao said:
Many honest sellers will offer returns even if they indicate no returns on the listing. It's all about keeping the customer happy. This guy clearly did not want the coin and thought he had to create a ridiculous story in order to get a return accepted by the seller. Being nice and sincere in a message can get you just that without all the drama.

And I do. It's even all written out in the listing. A quick message and I'd have taken it back no problem.

I'm surprised, as your case was open and shut. I even beat a snad from my small account which I sold very little from! I despise ebayers that abuse the system.

LanceNewmanOCC

@airplanenut said:

.
i only ask in light of how many unsealed slabs are popping up. have you checked the slab to ensure it isn't one of them?

also, does the obv have die polish or some cleaning. i can't tell from the max TV or your images, both which are more than sufficient to show this is a decent coin. calling it whizzed and not authentic says a lot of the buyer.

personally, i'd be hard-pressed to return such a great coin, even if it has some hairlines.

logger7

The guy added insult to injury. Certified coins with tvs no less, should remove all doubts on what they are buying. Raw coins are always an open issue on how the grading service will judge a coin, but not certified coins like this.

airplanenut

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@airplanenut said:

.
i only ask in light of how many unsealed slabs are popping up. have you checked the slab to ensure it isn't one of them?

also, does the obv have die polish or some cleaning. i can't tell from the max TV or your images, both which are more than sufficient to show this is a decent coin. calling it whizzed and not authentic says a lot of the buyer.

personally, i'd be hard-pressed to return such a great coin, even if it has some hairlines.

Ironically, he pointed me to the TrueView, which only solidified my position--if the coin changed from the time it was graded, "very subtle" wouldn't be it. And I can confirm the slab is definitely sealed. The lines he's referring to are tough to see--they appear only at some specific combinations of light and the coin being held the right way. Enough of them go right up to the devices and stop that they're pretty clearly die polish. Not all go up to the devices, but for any to do so, that pretty well takes out the possibility of hairlines. Also, they're straight, so there's another knock against whizzing.

@logger7 said:
The guy added insult to injury. Certified coins with tvs no less, should remove all doubts on what they are buying. Raw coins are always an open issue on how the grading service will judge a coin, but not certified coins like this.

Agreed

@amwldcoin said:

@airplanenut said:

@amwldcoin said:
So did the snad go through and you paid the return shipping?

Of course, because eBay couldn't know for sure which one of us was right.

@Kliao said:
Many honest sellers will offer returns even if they indicate no returns on the listing. It's all about keeping the customer happy. This guy clearly did not want the coin and thought he had to create a ridiculous story in order to get a return accepted by the seller. Being nice and sincere in a message can get you just that without all the drama.

And I do. It's even all written out in the listing. A quick message and I'd have taken it back no problem.

I'm surprised, as your case was open and shut. I even beat a snad from my small account which I sold very little from! I despise ebayers that abuse the system.

I'm going to call eBay and argue some more with them, but it was clear I wasn't going to win with the first person I spoke to, and unfortunately I didn't have the time then to really push it much further, much as I wanted to. I have won SNADs before, but sometimes it's as much a function of which agent you get as it is how dumb the claim.

MFeld

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@airplanenut said:

.
i only ask in light of how many unsealed slabs are popping up. have you checked the slab to ensure it isn't one of them?

also, does the obv have die polish or some cleaning. i can't tell from the max TV or your images, both which are more than sufficient to show this is a decent coin. calling it whizzed and not authentic says a lot of the buyer.

personally, i'd be hard-pressed to return such a great coin, even if it has some hairlines.

I don’t know that there are they many unsealed slabs popping up.
But regardless, did you look at both sets of images and compare them? It’s quite clear that the coin is the same one that appeared in the PCGS images. So to me, your question sounds more like one from an uninformed newbie than from someone with your knowledge and awareness.

Project Numismatics

That’s absurd. I’m sorry that happened. That’s a beautiful coin!

LanceNewmanOCC

@MFeld said:

.
i had no concern of it being the same coin as it obviously is. i asked about the slabs being unsealed and about the possibility of hairlines.

MFeld

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@MFeld said:

.
i had no concern of it being the same coin as it obviously is. i asked about the slabs being unsealed and about the possibility of hairlines.

Thanks. Sorry for my understanding.

LanceNewmanOCC

@MFeld said:

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@MFeld said:

.
i had no concern of it being the same coin as it obviously is. i asked about the slabs being unsealed and about the possibility of hairlines.

Thanks. Sorry for my understanding.

if my post made it seem like i was really questioning whether or not that was the same coin, then your post makes perfect sense and a simple inquiry cleared it up lickity-split!

MFeld

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@MFeld said:

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@MFeld said:

.
i had no concern of it being the same coin as it obviously is. i asked about the slabs being unsealed and about the possibility of hairlines.

Thanks. Sorry for my understanding.

if my post made it seem like i was really questioning whether or not that was the same coin, then your post makes perfect sense and a simple inquiry cleared it up lickity-split!

I think it was all on me.

logger7

None of the buyer's comments made any sense. I want to be charitable even with problem customers, not knowing what they are going through. Drug epidemics, the end of a pandemic and who knows what else. The guy is off his rocker.

jesbroken

I think in today's me world, getting upset over an incident totally out of your control is only bad for you. Let these imposter coin collectors/sellers go their way and be glad you can block them and never do business with them again. I have had a recent buyer file a return(which I have no problem with) as "I didn't mean to buy them" for 3 coins. Kind of odd, but was happy to find that the buyer paid shipping both ways and I had my fees removed. Ebay did well that time as they did it on their own without me calling. We just have to grin and bear it. I have been selling on ebay for 18 years and have had 5 coins returned in that time, of which, 4 in the last year. It is what it is and just have to laugh at their me, me, me attitude.
Best of luck in the future, Jeremy, as anyone who knows your coins, would not ever believe such nonsense. .
Jim

Paradisefound

I am sorry you had to go through such unpleasant transaction.
Part of must be the buyers remorse however should’ve been more respectful.
Is the exact coin received back from the buyer?
What is your eBay handle?

*edited to take the r of handler 😟

airplanenut

@Paradisefound said:
I am sorry you had to go through such unpleasant transaction.
Part of must be the buyers remorse however should’ve been more respectful.
Is the exact coin received back from the buyer?
What is your eBay handler?

Yes, I received the same coin back. It occurred to me he might switch it, and to that end, this was a rare package I opened at the counter at the PO, but his claim never stated that what I sent was different from what was in the photos, so switching didn’t seem likely (had he said “this coin is totally different from what you showed!” I would have been much more alert to such an issue, as that’s a setup to send back something different).

I’m on eBay as JKCoins

ricko

@airplanenut ... I believe you handled the situation extremely well. It was (after viewing the Truview and your images) the buyer's issue, and certainly not what he was claiming. Cheers, RickO

DelawareDoons

@airplanenut said:
Oh, the joys of eBay. And yes, my blocked bidder list got a new addition.

Can my blocked bidder list also get a new addition??

airplanenut

@DelawareDoons said:

@airplanenut said:
Oh, the joys of eBay. And yes, my blocked bidder list got a new addition.

Can my blocked bidder list also get a new addition??

It can if you just add [see private message] to your list