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Crazy World.

cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

I'm sure this is news to nobody any longer but I got to thinking about the new demand for Indian Republic coins. All of the circulation issues and mint sets listed for less than $5 only several years ago. Most of the proof sets and silver issues could be found for 10 or $20.

Now days with a very slight demand prices are sharply higher.

I got to thinking what would it take to assemble an MS-66 set of some "common coin" today. Let's take the 5 paise coin as an example. Some of these are simply not seen in chBU and so far as I can tell never were. Even finding Unc coins of most dates to check for Gem is very challenging and always was. Some of the cu/ ni is available in Gem but I'm not so sure about the aluminum.

I would wager nobody in the world has a complete set even in Gem far less chGem. Indeed, even complete sets in any grade will be few and far between. Early coins were melted down to make things like razor blades for domestic use and most of those that got into world poundage were already worn when they got out of the country. 50 years of sitting in junk boxes has not been kind to them.

People laugh how the US 3c nickel gets no respect because it is base metal and nobody collects it but can you imagine how different things would be if even small numbers of people started collecting India Republic coins!!! Attrition on coins like the '50's era 1/2 Rupees must approach 100%. Sure they made mountains of them but they aren't seen anywhere in the US or India. On the rare occasion one shows up in poundage it will be in VF.

A lot of the poundage from the last half century has been "consumed". Anything not set aside by collectors (like India) ends up as play coins for children or otherwise finds its way into the garbage stream. I seriously doubt any nice collectible pre-'85 Indian coin has come out of India since 1988.

Everywhere you look in modern world coins you can see rarity masquerading as common coin. You see low prices on coins with mintages under 1000 in the same series with coins that have huge mintages but almost no survivors. Being base metal OR modern is the kiss of death for coins. Being both is virtual nonexistence.

Tempus fugit.
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Comments

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't know specifically but seem to recall many mass meltings of coins by the government and even private individuals (maybe prosecutions also?)....

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    silver silver silver

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok I have some paise coins on this set 🤗

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @7Jaguars said:
    I don't know specifically but seem to recall many mass meltings of coins by the government and even private individuals (maybe prosecutions also?)....

    I would guess that well over 90% of every coin made in the world since WW II has been destroyed intentionally or lost forever. Mass meltings are typical for world coins especially since they are recalled and reissued periodically. Indian coins suffered from very low face value. A 5p is at about 14 to the penny and the penny no longer has any value at all. The coins are far more valuable for counterweight than as money and this assumes there are even enough left to make a decent counterweight.

    Some of the ships that used to deliver automobiles to South America made the return trip to Japan full of coins to melt into Toyotas. The European coins were recalled and remade into refrigerators and Euros. This same process goes on all over the world; if the government fails to recall the coins then someone else will melt them. If you need 100 lbs of copper to cast a statue then you can buy the metal for $500 or you can use BU rolls of 1964 pennies that cost only about $250. If you separate the copper pennies yourself they are even less ($150).

    Yes, India had strict laws against melting coin but it still happened.

    People would be surprised how much coin is used in industry for alloy or chill scrap. It is usually far cheaper than other sources and it works much better.

    While only 90%++ of post-WW II coin is gone the vast majority of the rest is in circulation and in poor condition. Most of the coins in circulation anywhere in the world will be gone before you know it. But these numbers don't affect things like a 1956 1/2 Rupee because they are already gone just like most of the early 5 paise coins.

    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask said:
    Ok I have some paise coins on this set 🤗

    Not long ago you couldn't give away that 5p coin. Now it lists for $8.

    The mintage was 7500 and the attrition is probably around 1%. I'd guess about 4500 still exist.

    The BU version with a mintage in the hundreds of millions might be even scarcer in Unc. I have no way to know.

    Tempus fugit.
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've got a half dozen or so lower denomination India Republic coins listed on eBay. It was an experiment to judge interest. They're from the early-mid 60's, raw and would probably grade 65-66 if I was insane enough to spend the money necessary to get them slabbed. All are priced below $10, a couple are at $4 now and I'm willing to accept offers. They've been listed for over a year and a half. No offers, no sales.

    "New demand for Indian Republic coins"? You don't say.

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    >

    "New demand for Indian Republic coins"? You don't say.

    Incredible isn't it!!!! As I say "crazy world".

    There is enough demand to push many of the coins sharply higher but not enough to show how scarce Gems are. A 1954 proof set used to just junk but now they can go for thousands.

    Part of the reason for the huge price discrepancy is that the markets are in their infancy. Remember I said there probably isn't a Gem set in existence and I might add almost none being assembled. If you have nice Gems then odds are they are common date Gems and any theoretical set builder already has those dates.

    In a few years the scarcities will become defined (I can guess several of them) and then the relative pricing will have some meaning.

    Believe it or not even US moderns still have very bad relative pricing. It gets better every year but there are still some common Gems priced like scarcities and scarcities priced like they are common.

    I'd love to see a link iff you are so inclined.

    Tempus fugit.
  • 1984worldcoins1984worldcoins Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Being rare or low mintage means nothing if there are no collectors to be interested. Some of the modern coins are so rare that are almost impossible to get if more than 2 collectors are after them ( like @7Jaguars and me overlapping on some mega rare Franklin Mint 1984 sets!).

    Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1984worldcoins said:
    Being rare or low mintage means nothing if there are no collectors to be interested. Some of the modern coins are so rare that are almost impossible to get if more than 2 collectors are after them ( like @7Jaguars and me overlapping on some mega rare Franklin Mint 1984 sets!).

    I find it virtually inconceivable that there is almost no demand for most regularly circulating coinage made since WW II.

    More and more collectors are butting heads to acquire issues but still demand can only be characterized as "weak".

    I'm not complaining by any means. It is what it is and I'm not going to compete with myself to try to acquire everything scarce. I'm selling now rather than buying but I'm at least a few years too early. Now I'm concentrating on selling the ones that have gone up the most but they won't last forever. If anyone's worried about my coins driving down prices, don't. I don't even have every date of the scarce Soviet or Chinese coins. I don't have more than three or four of even the common ones. I'd have a lot more because they were always so cheap but finding them was difficult.

    Tempus fugit.
  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think CK is spot on with regards to more recent coins in that so few are seemingly available of many issues. And here and there some are picking up a slight bit of interest. What may also be a factor, and I do not have a dog in the fight in that I do not deal or sell, is that coins (especially modern) appear to becoming passe.
    Despite all the protestations, new and younger collectors are a disappearing breed - the so-called "Buick demographics" with a predominance of older in comparison to younger collectors with appear to be no signs of invigoration to any extent.
    I say this because this is the case. I have a son who has been at several schools and obviously has friends. Despite my best efforts at sharing stories, presentations, gifts, innumerable talks, there has been virtually no headway. I also have a profession where parents frequently bring their children and I have occasional spare time & occasionally have rolls of interesting coins from which I pull singles out to give as gifts. Any response? NOPE. Quite disappointing to be sure...

    So what I am saying is that collecting may be in a bit of danger of a slide in the basic and beginning areas. We shall see.
    Meanwhile, my interest very much continues and appreciate your presence as well as that of 1984worldcoins.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2022 9:18AM

    @7Jaguars said:

    Despite all the protestations, new and younger collectors are a disappearing breed - the so-called "Buick demographics" with a predominance of older in comparison to younger collectors with appear to be no signs of invigoration to any extent.
    I say this because this is the case. I have a son who has been at several schools and obviously has friends. Despite my best efforts at sharing stories, presentations, gifts, innumerable talks, there has been virtually no headway. I also have a profession where parents frequently bring their children and I have occasional spare time & occasionally have rolls of interesting coins from which I pull singles out to give as gifts. Any response? NOPE. Quite disappointing to be sure...

    So what I am saying is that collecting may be in a bit of danger of a slide in the basic and beginning areas. We shall see.
    Meanwhile, my interest very much continues and appreciate your presence as well as that of 1984worldcoins.

    I am not nearly as pessimistic about the future of the hobby. I certainly agree that its popularity is now "stressed" in comparison to two years ago but there are still very substantial numbers of new collectors since 1999 and this number is still on a (slight) long term uptrend that I believe will continue until coins are eliminated in the not so distant future. Many of these new collectors are in other countries. In 1990 coin collectors in India, for instance, were very rare and they all collected British India except a few who collected world coins. Today the percentage of Indians collecting coins is still low but the absolute number is approaching being substantial. Many Indians accumulate gold and silver and it's a tiny step from there to becoming a coin collector. In the Soviet Union coin collecting was suppressed by the state though many still collected. Of those who collected all of them collected old Russian coins and ignored Soviet coins (especially moderns). No matter how favorable a deal I was willing to make to acquire any Soviet moderns I was rebuffed. The number of collectors in Russia is far higher today.

    We are seeing similar things all over the world as economies and populations expand.

    In the US many new collectors skip "beginner coins" on the advice of numismatists. This means even things like worn buffalo nickels aren't doing that well.

    I believe success breeds success. People like to do things in masses. This way assures they'll lose money but they have the best of company and others who can empathize with them. Sooner or later people are simply going to wake up and find that moderns are scarcer than old coins especially as to cost, and demand will soar. If prices have already been pushed to thousands of dollars with very weak demand, what will happen if and when strong demand emerges? I have no doubt it will happen at least in terms of relative demand. When, I believe, is the question. Someday you'll not be able to buy coins with mintages of "2000" for a dollar or two just because they are modern. You will not be able to pick up rare coins in nice chBU for a song because nobody wants them. There will be some small demand for a Fijian 1981 50c and the price of handful of specimens must react.

    Sure, the future always gets in the way of every prediction but then I still believe that predicting rare, beautiful, historic, and high grade coins will be in demand is like predicting the sun will come up in the morning. Things can go wrong and trends can become discontinuous but this is most probably going to happen. Indeed, in most real ways it has already begun and has been building for 20 years. Few collectors are even aware because moderns are flying under the radar; collectors simply don't notice that many of these coins are increasing in price because they see only old coins.

    Tempus fugit.
  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:
    I got to thinking what would it take to assemble an MS-66 set of some "common coin" today. Let's take the 5 paise coin as an example. Some of these are simply not seen in chBU and so far as I can tell never were. Even finding Unc coins of most dates to check for Gem is very challenging and always was. Some of the cu/ ni is available in Gem but I'm not so sure about the aluminum.

    Here we go again.

    Once again, no one's personal experience is representative of the actual supply, unless the coin is already known to be common. Your inability to find a coin doesn't mean it's even scarce. One or more of the coins you name in this post (aside from proof sets with initial low mintages), may be scarce, but the far more likely reason it's hard to buy is the low price and most likely because no one wants it badly enough.

    @cladking said:

    People laugh how the US 3c nickel gets no respect because it is base metal and nobody collects it but can you imagine how different things would be if even small numbers of people started collecting India Republic coins!!! Attrition on coins like the '50's era 1/2 Rupees must approach 100%. Sure they made mountains of them but they aren't seen anywhere in the US or India. On the rare occasion one shows up in poundage it will be in VF.

    Of course the 3CN is collected. Have you looked at the prices?

    The series is relatively cheap versus other US pre-20th century classic coinage for a very obvious reason, the coin attributes. It's a small base meatal coin with a low to moderately appealing design. Except for a few dates, it's also rather to very common except in the highest grades. So, the vast majority of collectors would rather buy something else with the same money.

    I used the 3CN as a counterexample in one of our prior discussions. Most non-US post WWII coinage has a similar profile, except that in the more widely collected countries, it's even more common than the 3CN. That's the predominant reason the prices are so low.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    I've got a half dozen or so lower denomination India Republic coins listed on eBay. It was an experiment to judge interest. They're from the early-mid 60's, raw and would probably grade 65-66 if I was insane enough to spend the money necessary to get them slabbed. All are priced below $10, a couple are at $4 now and I'm willing to accept offers. They've been listed for over a year and a half. No offers, no sales.

    "New demand for Indian Republic coins"? You don't say.

    Most world "classic" coins sell for relatively low or nominal prices too. It doesn't matter whether these "moderns" sell for proportionately a lot less.

    If TPG ever gains noticeable traction among local Indian collectors, we'd have a much better idea on the scarcity of Republic coinage. If China is any indication, most or all of the coins are probably common. The TPG population data demonstrate that the earlier PRC circulating coinage (1955 and later) is either common or extremely common, with dozens to hundreds in MS67, MS-68 and even MS-69 in some instances last I looked.

    Unlike practically all other developing countries, India is one where I think some of this coinage might have some potential. But by some, seldom or virtually never where it becomes more expensive than the preceding coinage. Some of the proof sets which are already expensive (like the 1957) are exceptions.

    I don't know what the likely supply is for pre-Republic coinage or the local preference for colonial coinage (which appears to be the most expensive presumably mostly bought by non-locals), but like all countries with extended histories, there is a lot more to collect than India's version of "moderns".

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2022 7:50PM

    @cladking said:
    In the US many new collectors skip "beginner coins" on the advice of numismatists. This means even things like worn buffalo nickels aren't doing that well.

    No, that's not usually the reason why new collectors skip "beginner" coins. With the internet which provides access to something like 95% of all coins ever struck on demand or relatively short notice, why would anyone choose to pay anything for an unappealing virtually unmarketable coin like a dateless Buffalo nickel?

    One of the reasons new collectors actually skip this coinage (world base metal post-WW2) is due to another reason you gave. A higher proportion versus the past never collected out of circulation but start with (bullion) NCLT and depending upon their preferences, aren't inclined toward base metal or small coinage at all. They probably buy common silver crowns and lower premium gold (like Morgan dollars and generic pre-1933 in the US) as it's the most similar.

    @cladking said:

    Sooner or later people are simply going to wake up and find that moderns are scarcer than old coins especially as to cost, and demand will soar.
    >
    I can give you a long list of world coinage where the "classics" are a lot scarcer than the "moderns". in a prior message exchange, I also identified a number of world "classic" series that by any sensible assessment are obviously scarcer than practically any "modern" but aren't hard to buy at all. I can also list numerous specific coins which have much higher TPG populations than presumably anyone who is not familiar with would expect.

    The most likely reason the vast majority of any of these coins are scarce is due to low mintages where the coins are from a country with virtually no local collecting and practically non-existent foreign demand.

    To my knowledge, the only other coinage generically where your claim is or might be correct is a direct comparison between developed country "moderns" versus the immediately preceding "classics", like late 19th century to pre-WWII. It isn't likely to be true for hardly anything else.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Although I am only a collector (with the occasional trade), and have taken interest in scarce and attractive items in what had been somewhat unloved series, I have noted that in many cases they are not so unloved and even in the case of sets have seen them often triple in the last 5 years - that makes them harder for me to get but strangely more attractive as the hunt is all the more challenging.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    Once again, no one's personal experience is representative of the actual supply, unless the coin is already known to be common. Your inability to find a coin doesn't mean it's even scarce. One or more of the coins you name in this post (aside from proof sets with initial low mintages), may be scarce, but the far more likely reason it's hard to buy is the low price and most likely because no one wants it badly enough

    You're missing the point. If there are no collectors then there on no collections. Where do you think the coins will come from when there is already a better than 99% attrition rate?

    People have this concept that coins made by the billions can save themselves but it never worked this way. It is collectors who used to save coins for future generations.

    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    I don't know what the likely supply is for pre-Republic coinage or the local preference for colonial coinage (which appears to be the most expensive presumably mostly bought by non-locals), but like all countries with extended histories, there is a lot more to collect than India's version of "moderns".

    P{re-republic Indian tens to be common because lots of it was saved. I used to be able to buy silver rupees all the way back to the teens in AU and Unc for little over the silver value. I avoided them because there were far more interesting coins to collect at the same cost.

    What I couldn't find were cu/ ni rupees in any condition. Of course I wanted Gems. I found only three or four.

    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2022 7:03AM

    @WCC said:

    @cladking said:
    In the US many new collectors skip "beginner coins" on the advice of numismatists. This means even things like worn buffalo nickels aren't doing that well.

    No, that's not usually the reason why new collectors skip "beginner" coins. With the internet which provides access to something like 95% of all coins ever struck on demand or relatively short notice, why would anyone choose to pay anything for an unappealing virtually unmarketable coin like a dateless Buffalo nickel?

    Who said anything about dateless. A nice well made G '21-S buffalo is a tough coin and a key to the set for beginner collectors. Many will go for a typical AG.

    I can give you a long list of world coinage where the "classics" are a lot scarcer than the "moderns".

    Of course.

    This doesn't change the fact that moderns sell for pennies on the dollar even where they are much scarcer or otherwise more desirable.

    in a prior message exchange, I also identified a number of world "classic" series that by any sensible assessment are obviously scarcer than practically any "modern" but aren't hard to buy at all. I can also list numerous specific coins which have much higher TPG populations than presumably anyone who is not familiar with would expect.

    All old coins have at least some demand because they are old. But obviously you're right that there are many vastly undervalued old coins. This is not the point of this thread.

    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @7Jaguars said:
    Although I am only a collector (with the occasional trade), and have taken interest in scarce and attractive items in what had been somewhat unloved series, I have noted that in many cases they are not so unloved and even in the case of sets have seen them often triple in the last 5 years - that makes them harder for me to get but strangely more attractive as the hunt is all the more challenging.

    There's nothing like a little competition to get the adrenaline flowing.

    Tempus fugit.
  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:

    You're missing the point. If there are no collectors then there on no collections. Where do you think the coins will come from when there is already a better than 99% attrition rate?

    People have this concept that coins made by the billions can save themselves but it never worked this way. It is collectors who used to save coins for future generations.

    We've had this conversation probably half dozen times before, I explain why you are wrong, and yet you still make the same claims. You're just assuming this coinage is as scarce as you believe primarily because you can't find or haven't seen it.

    The coins you are covering in this thread are probably mostly in someone's "change jar". The mintages are higher or a lot higher than earlier coinage, it's had a lot less time for attrition, and with much wider and cheaper travel and communication since WWII versus prior. Someone like my parents (who travelled across Europe and around the Mediterranean in the mid-60's for about two years) brings it back where it's forgotten until a collector owns it years or decades later.

    You haven't looked at PRC TPG data, have you? Because if you did, you would understand what I am telling you. This coinage must be practically as common as dirt in almost any quality given the counts and grade distribution now. How many collectors do you think there were in China in the decades following its introduction in 1955?

    In most of the world, you have this impression that there were so many collectors saving world "classics" in "large" numbers when this mostly isn't true either. Here are some examples from "classics" in the TPG data, as of a few years ago:

    • Sarawak 1941H cent circulation strike: 46 (37 MS)
    • Spain 1726M Real: 28 MS (2 MS-68, 7 MS-67 and 9 MS-66)
    • Mexico 1751 1/2 Real: 31 MS
    • Mexico 1861 Mo CH 2R: 175 MS (26 PL, 10 MS-67 and 53 MS-66)
    • 1712 Peru 8E: 37 MS
    • 1821 Guatemala Real: 369 MS (264 PL)
    • 1774 Bolivia 8R: 91 MS (MS-66 top grade)
    • No date (1542-1555) Mexico 4R 52 MS (up to MS-64); Many more in AU-55 or AU-58
    • 1754 Mexico 8R: 566 MS:
    • 1923 Australia 1/2D: 310 (15 AU-55, 8 AU-58, 3 MS)
    • 1921 Canada 50C 27 (11 MS), excluding ICCS
    • First Jewish Revolt shekel 66-70CE: 42 MS + 139 AU.
  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:

    @WCC said:

    @cladking said:
    In the US many new collectors skip "beginner coins" on the advice of numismatists. This means even things like worn buffalo nickels aren't doing that well.

    No, that's not usually the reason why new collectors skip "beginner" coins. With the internet which provides access to something like 95% of all coins ever struck on demand or relatively short notice, why would anyone choose to pay anything for an unappealing virtually unmarketable coin like a dateless Buffalo nickel?

    Who said anything about dateless. A nice well made G '21-S buffalo is a tough coin and a key to the set for beginner collectors. Many will go for a typical AG.

    Same difference. The example you gave of the 21-S Buffalo is not a tough coin. It's available any day of the week in multiple in a wide variety of grades, on eBay alone. My point is that G-4 or G-6 equivalent Buffalo nickels are unattractive coins to most collectors.

    @cladking said:

    @WCC said:

    I can give you a long list of world coinage where the "classics" are a lot scarcer than the "moderns".

    Of course.

    This doesn't change the fact that moderns sell for pennies on the dollar even where they are much scarcer or otherwise more desirable.

    I wasn't clear. The list I was referring to was of coinage from the same country where the "classics" are scarcer or far scarcer than the "moderns". I'm not making a comparison between European "classics" (which are mostly common) versus some developing country.

    Most world "classics" don't sell for high prices either. As for your claim of desirability, to whom? Since you ignore the attributes which correlate to 99%+ of all collector preferences, I guess to you but not hardly anyone else.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:

    P{re-republic Indian tens to be common because lots of it was saved. I used to be able to buy silver rupees all the way back to the teens in AU and Unc for little over the silver value. **I avoided them because there were far more interesting coins to collect at the same cost. **

    What I couldn't find were cu/ ni rupees in any condition. Of course I wanted Gems. I found only three or four.

    Yes, the reason you gave is the same one most collectors share for these "moderns", for entirely sensible reasons.

    My primary collecting interest is within a similar price range to many of the more expensive "moderns". I find it a lot more interesting, just as those who collect other "classics" usually do too. There is nothing unusual about it.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @7Jaguars said:
    Although I am only a collector (with the occasional trade), and have taken interest in scarce and attractive items in what had been somewhat unloved series, I have noted that in many cases they are not so unloved and even in the case of sets have seen them often triple in the last 5 years - that makes them harder for me to get but strangely more attractive as the hunt is all the more challenging.

    I don't think the coins you reference are "unloved" at all. The price indicates it and it's not that much different (and in some instances maybe more) than the amounts I have paid for my high quality LM and PTS pillars.

    I'm not directing this comment to you, but the one thing that makes no sense is the implied inference that (practically) every single coin collectors really want is supposed to sell for much higher prices.

    It's a hobby.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, I have given many examples of coins - such as the 1984 T&T 50c uncirculated that was evidently unknown or unpublished prior to about 2018 and was bought for USD 3.59 including shipping (probably can't get pillars for that). So, no, I get most enjoyment out of finding coins that are not readily available but it is price independent - so I do not agree with your premise.
    And I made it clear that many of us are of similar bent although I do concede there may be some of that orientation.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @7Jaguars said:
    Well, I have given many examples of coins - such as the 1984 T&T 50c uncirculated that was evidently unknown or unpublished prior to about 2018 and was bought for USD 3.59 including shipping (probably can't get pillars for that). So, no, I get most enjoyment out of finding coins that are not readily available but it is price independent - so I do not agree with your premise.
    And I made it clear that many of us are of similar bent although I do concede there may be some of that orientation.

    I was thinking more of the potential market price, as I don't know what you paid.

    None of the coins I buy are easy to find and while I haven't bought any coins in the price range you quoted lately, I did buy a 1919 PCGS MS-65 Bolivia 10C (it's a base metal coin) within the last few years for $35. It's not rare but far from common and hard to find. I recall seeing four in 15 years.

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    The coins you are covering in this thread are probably mostly in someone's "change jar".

    This is not how things work.

    Back about 15 years ago there was a guy discovered in the old East Germany in his easy chair since shortly after the war. Somehow he had died and just never been missed. His door was lost while being remodeled and ended up behind a new wall.

    Such things are most highly unusual and it's equally unusual for change jars to contain pristine examples of even 10 year old coins. We're talking about coins that are half a century old. Coins are money and people spend money, they look at it, they dump it on the bed and roll around in it. It doesn't matter how many you make after ten half lifes it's gone and half lives for world coins can be just a couple or a few years.

    yes, coins literally get stuck in the woodwork and old silver coins sometimes were found this way or buried and still in good condition but base metal coins not so much. People don't bury aluminum coins and banks don't keep them as backing for specie. They simply move almost all the time and as they move they degrade and are lost.

    I don't claim to be able to account for every 1950 E East German 10p. I don't need to to know that there aren't many around in pristine condition and that even XF's are elusive.

    It is things like poundage where many moderns will be found eventually but they won't be pristine. Coins in poundage degrade just more slowly and most were worn before they got there. While dozens of '50-E 10P's will turn up they will be in VF for the main part and many will be culls or low grade. None will be pristine. By the same token high denomination coins are scarce in poundage and in little better condition.

    You want to consider all moderns as some sort of monolith because they're all junk and made in huge quantities but that's not reality. They are all different and the survivors will have survived by unique and individual means. What is different today than 100 years ago is that most coins used to be saved by intent. People made collections and these coins form the bulk of what is available today. Some coins sat in bank vaults for decades. The mint made no effort to rotate their stocks of coins so old pallets of BU coins might be found in the back o a vault in Omaha. None of this still exists. There are no collections of BU Indian coins here or in India so any collection that walks into a coin shop in 20 years will be made in the future out of coins that just happened to survive despite collectors.

    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    Same difference. The example you gave of the 21-S Buffalo is not a tough coin. It's available any day of the week in multiple in a wide variety of grades, on eBay alone. My point is that G-4 or G-6 equivalent Buffalo nickels are unattractive coins to most collectors.

    I beg to differ. Not because I find them beautiful but because they have a substantial price compared to their availability and beginning collectors have sought these for three generations.

    Most world "classics" don't sell for high prices either. As for your claim of desirability, to whom? Since you ignore the attributes which correlate to 99%+ of all collector preferences, I guess to you but not hardly anyone else.

    I didn't say they do. I said a world classic just like a US classic sells for a far higher price than an equally rare modern in most instances.

    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    @cladking said:

    P{re-republic Indian tens to be common because lots of it was saved. I used to be able to buy silver rupees all the way back to the teens in AU and Unc for little over the silver value. **I avoided them because there were far more interesting coins to collect at the same cost. **

    What I couldn't find were cu/ ni rupees in any condition. Of course I wanted Gems. I found only three or four.

    Yes, the reason you gave is the same one most collectors share for these "moderns", for entirely sensible reasons.

    My primary collecting interest is within a similar price range to many of the more expensive "moderns". I find it a lot more interesting, just as those who collect other "classics" usually do too. There is nothing unusual about it.

    The Indian Rupees used to cost me 50c or a dollar when I could find them. Even a couple years ago they listed for a few dollars. Now they list much higher and may still be ridiculously underpriced, especially the high mintage ones from the mid-'70's. I couldn't find them so I seriously doubt they can be common yet these still sell for a few dollars.

    Tempus fugit.
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    People collect what's available. If there are no gems, they'll collect what's there and those who require gems won't be missed.

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    People collect what's available. If there are no gems, they'll collect what's there and those who require gems won't be missed.

    Yes, I agree.

    But there are a few things here. One and most importantly people like Gem and eye appeal.

    Another thing is most moderns were made of harder metal and far lower standards than older coins. This means that a lot of moderns just look like junk and will be avoided by many collectors. Even in lower grades a poorly made 1966 quarter looks like junk because it was struck poorly with worn dies. Most classics looked pretty nice right off the dies so there was little incentive to seek out nicer specimens. Today there is much more incentive if you want to collect Indian moderns.

    If there are no Gems they will still be sought until one from WCC's change jar appears.

    Tempus fugit.
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:

    @MasonG said:
    People collect what's available. If there are no gems, they'll collect what's there and those who require gems won't be missed.

    Yes, I agree.

    But there are a few things here. One and most importantly people like Gem and eye appeal.

    If there are no gems, they'll collect what's there and those who require gems won't be missed.

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @cladking said:

    @MasonG said:
    People collect what's available. If there are no gems, they'll collect what's there and those who require gems won't be missed.

    Yes, I agree.

    But there are a few things here. One and most importantly people like Gem and eye appeal.

    If there are no gems, they'll collect what's there and those who require gems won't be missed.

    This isn't strictly true either.

    If there are no Gems it won't be known immediately but more importantly some of those who would collect Gems will pursue the finest that do exist even if that is just MS-62.

    I doubt the latter half of the 20th century will ever be considered a shining moment for human kind. Despite the great technological advancements mans inhumanity to man and the basest behavior of man is rampant.

    I believe it will be important to have shining examples of coins since there might be so few shining examples of anything else done by man. In any case people alive today have a right (at least a desire) to be reminded of the good things that were the 20th century. I believe a nice chGem '69 quarter is a far better reminder of the moon landing (for instance) than a poorly made and cull coin that was mangled in some counting house.

    To each their own.

    Tempus fugit.
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:

    @MasonG said:

    If there are no gems, they'll collect what's there and those who require gems won't be missed.

    This isn't strictly true either.

    If there are no Gems it won't be known immediately but more importantly some of those who would collect Gems will pursue the finest that do exist even if that is just MS-62.

    If they're satisfied with MS62 coins, they don't require gems.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:

    @WCC said:

    The coins you are covering in this thread are probably mostly in someone's "change jar".

    This is not how things work.

    Back about 15 years ago there was a guy discovered in the old East Germany in his easy chair since shortly after the war. Somehow he had died and just never been missed. His door was lost while being remodeled and ended up behind a new wall.

    Such things are most highly unusual and it's equally unusual for change jars to contain pristine examples of even 10 year old coins. We're talking about coins that are half a century old. Coins are money and people spend money, they look at it, they dump it on the bed and roll around in it. It doesn't matter how many you make after ten half lifes it's gone and half lives for world coins can be just a couple or a few years.

    yes, coins literally get stuck in the woodwork and old silver coins sometimes were found this way or buried and still in good condition but base metal coins not so much. People don't bury aluminum coins and banks don't keep them as backing for specie. They simply move almost all the time and as they move they degrade and are lost.

    I don't claim to be able to account for every 1950 E East German 10p. I don't need to to know that there aren't many around in pristine condition and that even XF's are elusive.

    It is things like poundage where many moderns will be found eventually but they won't be pristine. Coins in poundage degrade just more slowly and most were worn before they got there. While dozens of '50-E 10P's will turn up they will be in VF for the main part and many will be culls or low grade. None will be pristine. By the same token high denomination coins are scarce in poundage and in little better condition.

    You want to consider all moderns as some sort of monolith because they're all junk and made in huge quantities but that's not reality. They are all different and the survivors will have survived by unique and individual means. What is different today than 100 years ago is that most coins used to be saved by intent. People made collections and these coins form the bulk of what is available today. Some coins sat in bank vaults for decades. The mint made no effort to rotate their stocks of coins so old pallets of BU coins might be found in the back o a vault in Omaha. None of this still exists. There are no collections of BU Indian coins here or in India so any collection that walks into a coin shop in 20 years will be made in the future out of coins that just happened to survive despite collectors.

    I concur with most of your point most certainly. There are several posters here that get almost personal with their vitriol...

    Anyway, I like the points about the lack of collectability of recent issues over the last 50 years or so. I do not see them being collected as were by example Lincoln or even Mercury dimes from previous generations, where even coins saved in the ubiquitous Whitman folders at least were purposely saved.
    And so there may be jars full of coins that come to light, and collectively we have seen many of these. How many contained pristine coins?
    So for now, and for me at least, the fun is trying to find certain coins that are not readily accessable, and that going forward will not likely be easier to obtain as you so persistently have been pointing out & I thank you for your efforts.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @7Jaguars said:

    Anyway, I like the points about the lack of collectability of recent issues over the last 50 years or so. I do not see them being collected as were by example Lincoln or even Mercury dimes from previous generations, where even coins saved in the ubiquitous Whitman folders at least were purposely saved.
    And so there may be jars full of coins that come to light, and collectively we have seen many of these. How many contained pristine coins?

    Yes, there certainly are and have been some notable exceptions but most of these have been entirely predictable. People in the US were setting aside rolls and bags of moderns coins in the US in the '70's and I saw anecdotal evidence of this in many places. Most of these were halfs, dollars, nickels and cents. Cents by the millions and the other coins in the tens or even hundreds of thousands.

    Many of these coins didn't survive either and there was evidence of this in many places. It was hardly surprising to me when the populations of '77 Ikes in MS-66 jumped several years ago from around ten to twenty; someone graded out a really nice bag in all probability. But there are not so many of these and most are going to be junk and every year more of them degrade. We aren't seeing such jumps across the board for the simple reason that moderns were not collected extensively or saved in any way, for the main part. What we see is what we get.

    Keep in mind though that some coins are fairly common and you don't see those either because as with most moderns there is no demand. If there is no demand then prices are low and they stay in the woodwork and dealer inventory. So long as moderns are not collected the only way to tell rare from common is to get out there and look. See what is there AND what is not.

    Collecting modern world coins is dissimilar to collecting old coins. There's no need to be first in line at the coin show because if you don't buy it then at the next coin show the same coin will be in the same binder at the same price. If you like competition then collect morgan dollars or take up badminton.

    This lack of collecting the coins will have repercussions for decades. Where would coins for morgan dollar collectors come from if people hadn't collected the coins in the 1890's, 1960's, and in government and private hoards? Where can you go to buy a few rolls of 1954 Indian Rupees? Are there really enough coins in change jars to satisfy future demand and even if there are what about the scarcities, varieties, and Gems?

    How long can people ignore a coin with a billion mintage before there aren't enough of them even for a handful of people who want one?

    The last 20 years have been trying to answer exactly this question and it appears to be 40 or 50 years for most coins but the clock is still ticking on many more.

    Tempus fugit.
  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 782 ✭✭✭✭

    this argument must be solved in the cage

  • sylsyl Posts: 888 ✭✭✭

    I pop in on this thread from time to time, as a follow-on the the OP's May thread about having all these modern coins that no one wanted to buy from him. In this thread the populations and prices are wide open for interpretation. In the "pops" it's mentioned that there are only 10-20 in MSxxx. That statement is so misleading that it's no longer funny. No one in his right mind is going to spend $20-50 to get a coin cert'd when it's only worth less than 5 and will be into the next century. The "Ebay prices" that are mentioned are also on thin ice. A vendor can ask as much as he wants. It's what he actually GETS is the value, and after adding on tax and mailing. I think that someone still has piles of moderns that remain unsold and thread-posting will continue to highlight unappreciated treasures.

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @syl said:
    I pop in on this thread from time to time, as a follow-on the the OP's May thread about having all these modern coins that no one wanted to buy from him. In this thread the populations and prices are wide open for interpretation. In the "pops" it's mentioned that there are only 10-20 in MSxxx.

    I couldn't care less about "pops". Most real collectors from my generation don't care about pops and everyone knows pops are wholly irrelevant for BOTH inexpensive coins AND very unpopular coins. People don't grade low value or unpopular coins.

    What I care about is supply and demand. Either of these taken in tandem with price can tell you a great deal about any coin. But the best way to know about something like Indian 10p aluminum coins is to spend half a century looking for them. I spent several years in the late-'80's talking to Indian collectors and trying to secure such coins and netted a grand total of "none at all".

    Many people assume coins made in the billions are common and THIS is why they have a high price despite the low demand: the supply is even lower.

    You may think I care but frankly I hardly do. it breaks my heart that more people aren't enjoying or collecting moderns but I'm selling everything not because I have massive profits but because I don't want to leave the job to my heirs. if I can't get a decent price imagine the trouble they will have! They've threatened to dump my US collection at the bank. I just want to get rid of it but before I leave much money on the table I'll set it out for the trashman.

    People should collect what they want and I'm not trying to say otherwise. I'm just saying that perhaps no one today or has ever wanted to collect Indian Republic minors in chBU. I simply wonder what such a collection would look like if someone concentrated on it. Mine is full of holes and some of my best fall far short of Gem. I've never really concentrated on it because I'm a generalist and am focused much more on everything.

    Future collectors are likely to have a poor opinion of us as stewards of modern coins. No, I wouldn't really set them out with the trash but I'm not giving them away and my heirs might.

    Tempus fugit.
  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:
    I'm just saying that perhaps no one today or has ever wanted to collect Indian Republic minors in chBU.

    Maybe not. As I said earlier in this thread...

    "I've got a half dozen or so lower denomination India Republic coins listed on eBay. It was an experiment to judge interest. They're from the early-mid 60's, raw and would probably grade 65-66 if I was insane enough to spend the money necessary to get them slabbed. All are priced below $10, a couple are at $4 now and I'm willing to accept offers. They've been listed for over a year and a half. No offers, no sales."

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2022 8:35AM

    @cladking said:

    @WCC said:

    The coins you are covering in this thread are probably mostly in someone's "change jar".

    This is not how things work.

    Back about 15 years ago there was a guy discovered in the old East Germany in his easy chair since shortly after the war. Somehow he had died and just never been missed. His door was lost while being remodeled and ended up behind a new wall.

    Did you look at the list I provided? Some of those coins are known hoards but no not necessarily all or even most.

    How many collectors do you think existed in those countries at the time? That's my point.

    The coins in my list, most aren't even scarce. The coins you are referring to are overwhelmingly a lot more common., almost certainly by a factor of dozens, hundreds, or even thousands.

    Almost no collectors at the time in those countries. The coins survived in high enough quality anyway.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2022 8:33AM

    @cladking said:

    The Indian Rupees used to cost me 50c or a dollar when I could find them. Even a couple years ago they listed for a few dollars. Now they list much higher and may still be ridiculously underpriced, especially the high mintage ones from the mid-'70's. I couldn't find them so I seriously doubt they can be common yet these still sell for a few dollars.

    You are still gong by your personal experience. On this forum, you once made a similar comment about Chinese PRC. Look at the TPG populations. Those coins are extremely common, even in the highest grades.

    Does this apply to Indian Republic?

    We can't know definitively since India doesn't have the same preference for TPG. Concurrently, I know for a fact that the few Bolivian "moderns" are all very common, even in the highest grades. I also know there was and is virtually no collecting in that country, unless by "collecting" we are talking about people storing coins in their "change jars". I also know that the mintages were a lot higher for Indian coinage due to economics and population. Same result in many other countries. From this combination, I can reasonably conclude most Indian Republic coins are almost certainly a lot more common than you believe, even in the quality you are describing now.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @cladking said:

    @MasonG said:
    People collect what's available. If there are no gems, they'll collect what's there and those who require gems won't be missed.

    Yes, I agree.

    But there are a few things here. One and most importantly people like Gem and eye appeal.

    If there are no gems, they'll collect what's there and those who require gems won't be missed.

    Most coins have a low or very low collective preference. Probably at least 95%. If a coin with a low or very low preference has a (very) limited supply, the price will usually remain "low". Rarity alone isn't enough of a predictive factor to make a coin a lot more desirable, especially since in this thread, there isn't any actual evidence that the mostly unnamed coins under discussion are even scarce.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2022 8:52AM

    @cladking said:

    What I care about is supply and demand. Either of these taken in tandem with price can tell you a great deal about any coin. But the best way to know about something like Indian 10p aluminum coins is to spend half a century looking for them. I spent several years in the late-'80's talking to Indian collectors and trying to secure such coins and netted a grand total of "none at all".

    Your personal experience provides virtually no indication about the availability of these world coins, unless the coin is known to be common. This especially applies since your example is prior to eBay.

    That's why I have provided numerous examples of other far older coins which by any sensible standard are much scarcer, but now known to be common. Do you think these coins were easy to find in the past?

    At the 2006 ANA convention, a collector told me that for 20 years (1976 to 1996), he couldn't find Mexican pillar dollars above VF. This type was always known to be common, but it just wasn't that easy to buy for most collectors due to communication.

    The difference between the coins you always bring up and Mexican pillar dollars is predominantly the price. I state "predominantly" since it should be apparent that Mexican pillar dollars should be a lot scarcer than any Indian Republic circulation coin.

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    Almost no collectors at the time in those countries. The coins survived in high enough quality anyway.

    Collectors collect coins. People save coins. Banks save coins. Coins are intentionally saved and often in pristine condition for many reasons both intentionally and inadvertently. Well... ...that's the way it used to be but NONE of these things has existed for modern coins. Modern coins were all garbage, poorly made, and distressingly common. Not even the issuers wanted them. Collectors didn't want them and any hoarder who had them would redeem them when they needed the cash.

    Issuers rarely recalled coin in the old days but many moderns are recalled to be demonetized.

    All the forces used to work to preserve coins but none of the forces works to save them any longer.

    Obviously when you make something in the billions some are going to be preserved anyway. This is what future collectors will have to collect because all the rest are gone. Most of these will be in F to AU condition and found piecemeal in peoples sock drawers and in poundage over the coming decades. But again, most of this stuff is very low denominations from major countries. There will be very very few high denomination coins (25c or more), very few low mintage coins, and very very few pristine coins.

    It will be only what was preserved inadvertently because modern haven't been saved on purpose.

    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    @cladking said:

    The Indian Rupees used to cost me 50c or a dollar when I could find them. Even a couple years ago they listed for a few dollars. Now they list much higher and may still be ridiculously underpriced, especially the high mintage ones from the mid-'70's. I couldn't find them so I seriously doubt they can be common yet these still sell for a few dollars.

    You are still gong by your personal experience. On this forum, you once made a similar comment about Chinese PRC. Look at the TPG populations. Those coins are extremely common, even in the highest grades.

    Does this apply to Indian Republic?

    We can't know definitively since India doesn't have the same preference for TPG. Concurrently, I know for a fact that the few Bolivian "moderns" are all very common, even in the highest grades. I also know there was and is virtually no collecting in that country, unless by "collecting" we are talking about people storing coins in their "change jars". I also know that the mintages were a lot higher for Indian coinage due to economics and population. Same result in many other countries. From this combination, I can reasonably conclude most Indian Republic coins are almost certainly a lot more common than you believe, even in the quality you are describing now.

    Something tells me we are speaking different languages again.

    When I say few have survived I mean there are no longer billions of them. I don't mean there are fewer than a dozen 1950E 10p coins in any condition. I own two myself and one is AU.

    Many of the survivors are still unknown and these survivors still have huge attrition. If, for example, a person in the old East Germany found a few old 10p's he is most assuredly not going to take them to the bank. He will toss them in the trash. There probably isn't a scarcity in the lot but if there is it goes in the trash with the others because everyone hates moderns and isn't going to check the current value. People give children lots and lots of world coins that end up being used for play money and tossed in the trash. Even if every modern scarcity could suddenly be worth hundreds of dollars as many already ARE most of the coins "saved" for future collectors will NOT survive for future collectors. They will be destroyed like everything that is worthless and even that which is scarce and desirable. You can't stop this process any more than you can stop the tide by railing against it or holding out your hands.

    Those old coins you say are common will still be common in a 100 years. Most moderns will not. There is already more than 99.9% attrition on manty of them. Many of the rest are still experiencing sky high attrition and this will continue even if the prices soar.

    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    Your personal experience provides virtually no indication about the availability of these world coins, unless the coin is known to be common. This especially applies since your example is prior to eBay.

    I beg to differ.

    Obviously if some collector in Timbuctoo has a bag of nice pristine Indian Rupees then the coin will never be scarce. I can't state positively that I've checked every closet in every corner of the world but I can extrapolate from what I do KNOW. What I know is that many coins don't appear and for the main part this doesn't change over time. I see collections that come into coin shops and it doesn't include any coins at all of this type. People won't set aside significant amounts of cash to save common coins. If they sav something it will be low denomination and these don't show up either very much.

    That's why I have provided numerous examples of other far older coins which by any sensible standard are much scarcer, but now known to be common. Do you think these coins were easy to find in the past?

    Older coins all common dependent on mintage. Modern coins availability is based on how many were saved accidentally.

    At the 2006 ANA convention, a collector told me that for 20 years (1976 to 1996), he couldn't find Mexican pillar dollars above VF. This type was always known to be common, but it just wasn't that easy to buy for most collectors due to communication.

    Communication is an issue with moderns because the publishers of price guides are modern bashers. They put prices on coins so low that nobody talks about them and if you try to sell one at a fair price there are no buyers.

    The difference between the coins you always bring up and Mexican pillar dollars is predominantly the price. I state "predominantly" since it should be apparent that Mexican pillar dollars should be a lot scarcer than any Indian Republic circulation coin.

    No. Maybe if you were talking about better date dollars and common rupees in VF that's true but if you're talking about high grades this breaks down. Plus if you're talking about what will be available in 50 years it breaks down because the Rupees still have high attrition. Even some of the better ones list for $4 and this is hardly enough to get them out of the barn and into safe storage.

    Future collectors will be amazed at how few circulation coins from the latter half of the 20th century survived. A few will exist in the hundreds of thousands and even the millions and tens of millions but most will be scarce or rare in Gem and chBU. They will at the very least be scarce or rare in comparison to what people today believe.

    Tempus fugit.
  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:

    @WCC said:

    Almost no collectors at the time in those countries. The coins survived in high enough quality anyway.

    Collectors collect coins. People save coins. Banks save coins. Coins are intentionally saved and often in pristine condition for many reasons both intentionally and inadvertently. Well... ...that's the way it used to be but NONE of these things has existed for modern coins. Modern coins were all garbage, poorly made, and distressingly common. Not even the issuers wanted them. Collectors didn't want them and any hoarder who had them would redeem them when they needed the cash.

    You're claiming to know something you cannot possibly know. No one can claim to know what you are claiming.

    That's why I compared Bolivian "moderns" to Indian Republic in one of my posts today. I'm referring to coins from 1935 to 1951 which roughly correspond to the coinage you presumably are talking about. Maybe the 1937 50c is somewhat scarce (per our post exchange years ago) but the others are very common even in very high grades.

    These are "moderns", there were virtually no collectors in Bolivia then or now, yet the coins still survive in "large" numbers in (very) high quality.

    Some of it may be due to travel (mostly by Americans) but I doubt much. It's not like that many Americans were traveling to Bolivia during this period. Certainly far fewer in number than would have visited India due to its much greater importance economically.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2022 2:56PM

    @cladking said:

    @WCC said:

    Issuers rarely recalled coin in the old days but many moderns are recalled to be demonetized.

    South Africa Union silver was also melted in huge volume, most of it according to available sources. This coinage is still mostly common in lower to mid-circulated grades but not in better grades, usually.

    I've had this discussion with the South Africa collectors I know in that country many times. They would always make similar claims. It was mass melted (which was true) and they couldn't find it either (which was presumably also true), so (in their case) the TPG data was (mostly) complete, which wasn't true.

    The South Africa Union TPG counts have increased a lot in the 15+ years since I started looking but the absolute counts are still mostly low, compared to the likely local demand that would like to buy coins in better quality. Higher than most other countries but only due to the TPG preference, not because this coinage is more common versus comparable period coinage.

    Their premises were wrong, just as yours consistently are when we have these discussions.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2022 2:46PM

    @cladking said:

    @WCC said:

    Your personal experience provides virtually no indication about the availability of these world coins, unless the coin is known to be common. This especially applies since your example is prior to eBay.

    I beg to differ.

    Obviously if some collector in Timbuctoo has a bag of nice pristine Indian Rupees then the coin will never be scarce. I can't state positively that I've checked every closet in every corner of the world but I can extrapolate from what I do KNOW. What I know is that many coins don't appear and for the main part this doesn't change over time. I see collections that come into coin shops and it doesn't include any coins at all of this type. People won't set aside significant amounts of cash to save common coins. If they sav something it will be low denomination and these don't show up either very much.

    Your extrapolation isn't statistically representative. That's what I have explained to you in the past when we have this discussion. You have admitted you aren't familiar with the TPG data (multiple times) and you've never indicated that you are checking eBay regularly.

    All your examples are pre-internet too. A lot of coins were hard(er) to find before the internet and many aren't available in proportion to the number of survivors because of the price.

    The coins I listed for you in this thread above, any numbers of collectors could have done exactly what you did and never found single one, pre-internet. These types of coins were mostly unavailable pre-internet and even now only a low number of dealers ever offer it, infrequently.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cladking said:

    That's why I have provided numerous examples of other far older coins which by any sensible standard are much scarcer, but now known to be common. Do you think these coins were easy to find in the past?

    Older coins all common dependent on mintage. Modern coins availability is based on how many were saved accidentally.

    I'm not referring to random coins, I'm referring to the coins in my prior reply to your post. Look above in this thread. None of those coins had high mintages versus Indian Republic.

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