1791 Washington Solid Silver Coins with Lettered Edge? Counterfeit?
CoinNewBee
Posts: 159 ✭✭✭
Are there any known counterfeit 1791 Washington President small eagle SOLID SILVER coins WITH A LETTERED EDGE? This coin passes the magnet test of non-attachment - some earlier owned cut a deep file groove in the edge looking for non-silver core but it is solid silver. 30.3 mm diameter - 1.93 mm thick - 12.3 grams weight. If this is a struck coin, this appears to be struck over another silver coin. Spanish coin silver was subject to silver erosion. The obverse and reverse fields seem to show an underlying pattern.
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Comments
Immediate red flag, they attempted to whizz away the super fake marks not to mention all those marks look super fresh,,,, super fake in my opinion based on somebody is trying to hide something.
I'm just making my own opinion.
I'm not a pro,,, also I'm not gonna research it cause those said marks on the edge. Also it totally could be real
Thanks for sharing
SlickCoins--maybe 231 years of kicking around?
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Is this what was you talking about? I mean on top another coin?
Thanks
Slick -- I mean this 231 years of wear. PCGS graded. Wear happens. Let's play nice.
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The pock marks look like it's a counterfeit cast in white metal. I doubt it's even silver.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yes PerryHall -- like this SILVER Spanish Real -- pock marker
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From HA. The OP compared to this one appears off. Strike is soft (stars, eagle legs near body, wings and on) and letters, numerals (date) generally 'fat'.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/1791-1c-washington-small-eagle-cent-vf25-pcgs-pcgs-population-7-228-ngc-census-2-61-/a/1211-7043.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0
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Of course I'm just looking at his vest in a different way not to mention it looks like they almost tried to remove it whatever it was. You are right @CoinNewBee
I was kinda rough on the edge,,, the vest not so much.
Just my opinion
Thanks
Lilome
Yes soft details like this sold Stack's Bowers.
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So I followed up for you
The font seems thicker like it's a copy,,, notice on the bottom of the E how thin it is.
It seems that the OP only wants to hear comments that support their wishes. Why not just send it to PCGS and then post the results?
Well yeah I know I wanna hear good stuff also
just in this industry it either is or isn't and if it's not in the books good luck.
From my experience.
In the case of the OP's coin yes sorry it is counterfeit.
Thanks
JBK
This is a discussion board. Nothing wrong with making a counter point in a discussion. PCGS will not grade a coin that is unique and cannot be referenced. There are 1791 Washington President Large Eagle cents in silver, so if this was the large eagle, they would but none know in silver of the small eagle.
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It sure seems that way. Not that it will matter, but the coin looks counterfeit.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Another question ❓
I'm seeing the date on both obverse and reverse,,, is there a variety on said coin?
Thanks
Answer
That's what I mean about being struck on another silver coin. You can see design elements that underlay the fields. There was something in the field of the original silver coin below the bust.
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SlickCoins
You posted the obverse of the large eagle variety which has the date on the obverse. The small eagle variety has the date on the reverse.
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Well here's my discussion...
You have posted other examples that seem a little weak and/or have rough surfaces, possibly due to environmental damage.
Your coin has blurry details and pockmarks/craters on the coin. These are normally indicators of a cast item. Plus, there is the area on the edge which has a test cut, which is actually on top of a wider area that is ground away. Could that be where casting sprues were removed? 🤔
Plus, the edge lettering appears to be mostly either sharp or nonexistent - not seemingly a natural wear pattern.
And the scratches to the coin don't look natural to me, either.
Those are just my opinions. Feel free to rationalize them away.
Did you test it with a Sigma Metal Analyzer or similar device to see if it is actually silver? The pock marks in the obverse field look similar to the casting bubbles found on cast counterfeit coins which look totally different than the roughness caused by corrosion. I can't find any coin with this design in the PCGS Coin Facts that is struck in silver. Perhaps you found the first and only example. Until you get one of the major grading services to authenticate and slab this coin, no one will think it's anything more than a bad copy in white metal.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yes I noticed there's varieties
Here's another for you,,, the date look at the differences.
I know not the clearest but you can see the vast differences.
JBK
I appreciate your opinion. This is what I posted for. I'm looking for feed back, but I can make my observations as well.
Can you cast a coin and have lettering on the edges? The edge letters would need to be done with a collar in a striking.
I showed close-ups of the edge lettering so the detail of the letters cold be seen.
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Edge lettering on early coins were applied with a Castaing machine as a separate operation from the striking of the coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
SlickCoins
Silver is much softer that copper. The elements, like letters on the silver coin will flatten out much more than the harder copper I'd think. If this is on a Spanish Real, I don't know what quality silver it would be.
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JBK
Didn't know that--I'll look into how that was done. Never heard of a casting machine -- I'll investigate that.
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It's a Castaing machine. It's described in Wikipedia.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There's a big difference with the Spanish Reale. The Reale has been damaged by the environment and then cleaned to make it look that way, in my opinion. The Reale is not a normal circulated coin example.
I say it, the Washington piece, is a fake.
bob
OK -- All the signs are pointing to this being a cast coin. This is exactly the feed back I was hoping for.
Thank you all!
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took me longer to find this than i preferred. i'm sure you've seen it multiple times but for others...
Yes...
If you cast a coin I a two-part mold, the seam will be around the edge and edge lettering would be difficult to duplicate.
But if you used the lost wax process you would be starting with an exact copy in wax (to include the edge lettering, if you can arrange it), and then attaching two sprues, probably on the edge (one to pour the metal in and the other to allow the displaced air out), and then encasing the wax copy in casting clay/ceramic.
Melt out the wax, pour in the metal, break away the mold, and there is your 360 degree metal copy, except for the two sprues you need to grind off.