@craig44 said:
I have been a Brett fan for a very long time. over 35 years. it is no small potatoes if you are considered the 2nd or 3rd best 3rd baseman of all time.
Or even 4th.
But why are we picking on Trout, when Ted Williams - who played with two guys (Dropo and Stephens) who each drove in 144 runs (in the same year!) and HOFer Bobby Doerr (who drove in 120 in the same year!) - could only get his team to the postseason a single time (and not in the year all these runs were scoring). And when he did go, he hit .200 with no extra base hits. I mean, talk about overrated, nobody could possibly be more overrated than Williams. Clearly, if you're picking a left fielder for your all-time team, you're going to pick Gene Woodling. Woodling single-handedly carried the Yankees to five straight WS titles, and not a single teammate ever drove in 144 runs, let alone two in one year. In fact, not a single Yankee drove in even 100 runs in three of those five years. How do you overcome such a pathetic offense? You put Gene Woodling in LF and sit back and watch the magic happen. Can I get an "Amen"?
Anyone making the argument that Mike Trout is overrated because his team has only gone to the playoffs once is embarrassing themselves. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. I know the people doing it don't see it, so out of the kindness of my heart I'm letting you know. You. Are. Embarrassing. Yourselves. Stop, and nurse whatever tiny fragment of your dignity has managed to survive back to health by talking about football or whatever sport it is that you do understand.
You're welcome.
Agree completely, these fools that think that championships (or lack thereof) are because of one guy, are clueless.
I guess Killebrew and Banks sucked as well.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Oh sorry all you experts, I guess it was unreasonable for me to think the Angels should be ahead
of the Rangers in the standings simply because the Angels have the two best players in baseball
and one of them even pitches.
You would think before any pitches are even thrown that would be a fairly decent advantage.
I guess the Angels are over performing as they should be in last place huh all you baseball gurus'?
Yes I guess on paper the Rangers are a complete juggernaut!
Thanks all you gurus' for convincing me I was wrong to think the Angels should be ahead
of the Rangers in the standings. Future HOF'ers at every position for the vaunted Rangers Big Blue Machine.
Boy you guys' knowledge of baseball is amazing.
Thanks for showing me how Ohtani and Trout should have no impact whatsoever on where the Angels are in the standings.
By the way, why can't one lone position player lead his team to the postseason?
George Brett sure did in 1985. You guys just have low expectations for Trout based on past performance.
This is from Dallas' hero Bill James and describes what Brett accomplished............
I think in the Yankee comment I wrote that Henderson had to be the best player in baseball in 1985. Now that I think about it, I realize that it has to be Brett. Brett created more runs with a much higher offensive winning percentage, a phenomenal .861. Brett won, and deserved, a Gold Glove. Brett's team won the pennant. And Brett, with the pennant on the line in the last week of the season, had what may well be as good a week as any player ever had under those conditions, hitting two doubles and driving in two runs on Sunday, homering and driving in two more on Monday, singling to drive in one on Tuesday, hitting a single, a double, and a three-run homer on Wednesday, homering again on Thursday, homering again on Friday, adding an RBI single as a bonus, and finishing it off with a 2-run homer on Saturday -- seven crucial games, five homers, 3 doubles, 13 RBI, one pennant. Willie Stargell won the MVP award in 1979 for having one hot week, and his week wasn't that good. I didn't see it at first because I was over-compensating for being a Royals fan, but if you step back and look at it, of course Brett was the MVP.
I guess I just expect more from a superstar baseball player.
Grew up as a Brett fan and he always seemed to put the Royals on his back and lead them to the playoffs.
I guess its my fault for not realizing that Trout doesn't have that same ability to do that for his team.
In the future I'll lower my expectations of him like you guys have done. Its just kind of sad.
Well its my birthday today. Going to the casino for a while this afternoon to celebrate
and have a few Bud lights. Feeling really good because last year at this time I had cancer
and had surgery at the end of July. And also feeling good because I have six straight days off
from work which hasn't happened in a long time.
Wishing good health and happiness to all you so called baseball gurus!
Royals were second in the league in ERA in 1985....had the Cy Young award winner and had a total of three pitchers in top ten in Cy Young voting.
They played in a crap division in the 1980's...and were fortunate to make the playoffs a couple times as a result.
I agree though that Brett was an MVP over Mattingly in 1985. Brett had an amazing year in 1985. No doubt at all.
Its too bad that Brett pissed away those LCS in the 1970's and pissed away the World Series in 1980(twice in one inning)....and lucky that Saberhagen carried them to the World Series in 1985.
The Angels are as high in the standings as they are only because they have Trout and Ohtani. They simply would be worse without them.
@Darin said:
Well its my birthday today. Going to the casino for a while this afternoon to celebrate
and have a few Bud lights. Feeling really good because last year at this time I had cancer
and had surgery at the end of July. And also feeling good because I have six straight days off
from work which hasn't happened in a long time.
Wishing good health and happiness to all you so called baseball gurus!
Happy Birthday. Enjoy your day at the Casino. Life is short and enjoy those Bud Lights.
Swell, for god's sake its a 40 year old picture, its just weird for you to have a crush on her.
Just think about what she looks like today and maybe you can get over her.
At least promise to try because we're all getting tired of the pic.
@Darin said:
Swell, for god's sake its a 40 year old picture, its just weird for you to have a crush on her.
Just think about what she looks like today and maybe you can get over her.
At least promise to try because we're all getting tired of the pic.
@Darin said:
Well its my birthday today. Going to the casino for a while this afternoon to celebrate
and have a few Bud lights. Feeling really good because last year at this time I had cancer
and had surgery at the end of July. And also feeling good because I have six straight days off
from work which hasn't happened in a long time.
Wishing good health and happiness to all you so called baseball gurus!
Happy Birthday. Enjoy your day at the Casino. Life is short and enjoy those Bud Lights.
We are just having some fun discussing this here.
Health and prosperity to all.
Thanks swell.
And I'll quit having such high expectations of Trout being able to lead his team to
any kind of success like Brett was so often able to do.
@Darin said:
Swell, for god's sake its a 40 year old picture, its just weird for you to have a crush on her.
Just think about what she looks like today and maybe you can get over her.
At least promise to try because we're all getting tired of the pic.
Flip on MLB network in the morning...they talk about Trout and give him his due...but more importantly, Lauren Shehadi is one of the hosts and she is quite more my style than the women crying after Brett struck out in game 5.
Darin,
It is odd that the year that you believe Brett as a lone position player led his team to the postseason, the Royals had the Cy Young winner and the 2nd best ERA in the AL...seems like perhaps Brett didn't actually lead his team to the postseason so much at play on a very good team with lots of other contributors.
Doesn't mean he wasn't a great player or didn't have a great season in 1985. Just means that he didn't single handedly cause the Royals to make the postseason. Trout is a generational talent, who decided to stick with a losing organization. I don't know why he didn't prioritize winning and re-upped for life with the Angels, but unless the Angels find some pitching he won't have much of a postseason legacy.
lets steer this discussion back towards Trout for a bit.
we are now about halfway through the season. a pretty good sample size. on the plus side: Trout has stayed healthy, he has played in 74 out of 83 team games. that will put him on pace for around 144 games played. His power numbers have been very impressive. He is amongst the league leaders in both home runs and slugging percentage.
on the negative side: he is not getting on base at nearly the clip we are used to. His OBP is down .35 from his career average and 60-80 points from his peak. I have not seen him play this season, so i am not too sure what is going on here.
His plate discipline seems to be bad. walks and BA are both way down and strikeouts are up. he is on pace to K more than any other season of his career.
I cant shake that this is how other players have started the decline phase. Trout seems too young to be there yet though. He has abandoned the stolen base part of his game. only 4 attempts in the last 3 seasons. Maybe the years of carrying 240 pounds of bulk in CF have caught up?
I remember Frank Thomas having a similar decline. he went years as a high BA/OBP player with power. then as the bat got slower, the BA/OBP dropped, but the power stayed till nearly the end.
can anyone add anything about Trouts play this season that I have missed?
@craig44 said:
lets steer this discussion back towards Trout for a bit.
we are now about halfway through the season. a pretty good sample size. on the plus side: Trout has stayed healthy, he has played in 74 out of 83 team games. that will put him on pace for around 144 games played. His power numbers have been very impressive. He is amongst the league leaders in both home runs and slugging percentage.
on the negative side: he is not getting on base at nearly the clip we are used to. His OBP is down .35 from his career average and 60-80 points from his peak. I have not seen him play this season, so i am not too sure what is going on here.
His plate discipline seems to be bad. walks and BA are both way down and strikeouts are up. he is on pace to K more than any other season of his career.
I cant shake that this is how other players have started the decline phase. Trout seems too young to be there yet though. He has abandoned the stolen base part of his game. only 4 attempts in the last 3 seasons. Maybe the years of carrying 240 pounds of bulk in CF have caught up?
I remember Frank Thomas having a similar decline. he went years as a high BA/OBP player with power. then as the bat got slower, the BA/OBP dropped, but the power stayed till nearly the end.
can anyone add anything about Trouts play this season that I have missed?
You hit the nail on the head...... he is tooooooooooo heavy. 4th and goal and I would give him the ball. Wait, he plays baseball. It is hurting every aspect of his game except pure power. His defense has suffered to. Stolen Bases....you can forget about that. That part of his game has long since been over. I'm not convinced he is ever going to reach any magic numbers; but he will be looked upon as an all time great when it is said and done; but anyone can see that his total game has changed. I don't understand all the need to put on more muscle. It hurts the rest of the body over years of wear and tear.
@fergie23 said:
Darin,
It is odd that the year that you believe Brett as a lone position player led his team to the postseason, the Royals had the Cy Young winner and the 2nd best ERA in the AL...seems like perhaps Brett didn't actually lead his team to the postseason so much at play on a very good team with lots of other contributors.
Doesn't mean he wasn't a great player or didn't have a great season in 1985. Just means that he didn't single handedly cause the Royals to make the postseason. Trout is a generational talent, who decided to stick with a losing organization. I don't know why he didn't prioritize winning and re-upped for life with the Angels, but unless the Angels find some pitching he won't have much of a postseason legacy.
Robb
You're correct, I should have said they had excellent pitching all year and an MVP third baseman and that the last week of the season when they were behind the Angels 1 or 2 games in the standings he put the Royals on his back and carried his team to the division title over California. Now you can't read the synopsis from Bill James in my previous post about what Brett did in that last week and say my comment is incorrect. If you read what his numbers were and say he didn't lead
his team to the division title in that last week then its you guys who know very little about baseball.
Craig, I think its clear Trout is on the downside curve of his career. For some players it happens earlier than others.
I think playing on a pathetic team year after year has to drain you mentally and physically as time goes on.
What's his motivation for even showing up at the ballpark? Money? He's got plenty of that.
He goes into every year knowing the Angels won't get into the playoffs. No matter how professionally you conduct
yourself that has to wear on you and ultimately affect your play on the field.
He's just punching the clock at this point in time, hoping for short games so his work day is over quicker
so he can go home and watch the weather channel.
I just find it funny that swell only posts about Brett choking in the playoffs when he
was always the main reason for the Royals getting into the playoffs.
Replace Brett with a league average player and the Royals never make the playoffs back in those days.
That's why I just can't understand why Trout and Ohtani together can't even propel the Angels
past the Rangers in the standings. How many superstars do they need to get past Texas?
If they had the 5 best players in baseball would that be enough? 6 or 7?
Darin,
None of Brett's heroics would have mattered without pitching. Brett didn't get 27 outs a game and prevent the other team from scoring more runs than he drove in or scored. Of course, in a 162 game season if Brett had just carried his team earlier in the season they wouldn't have needed his help at the end, no? While I do think end of year play matters, the reality is that a win in April means as much to the overall standings as a regular season win in September.
As for Trout, he still has plenty of speed. I guarantee the Angels have told him to stop trying to steal bases to prevent injury. He also has been very streaky this year, more so than I previously remember. I am not really sure being a top 3 player in MLB is much of a decline or the downside curve of his career. However, you never know. Things can go bad very quickly in baseball and a couple more prolonged slumps from Trout and people will have to adjust their expectations going forward.
The Angels are simply a bad team, it really isn't that hard to figure out. They have 2 of the 5 best players in MLB and can't win. Ohtani had a season for the ages last year and couldn't lead them to the playoffs. Folks who think that makes his season less amazing just don't understand that baseball is a team sport. One or even two players can't elevate a truly bad team. Most players would get fed up with the losing and underperformance of those around them and leave. For whatever reason, Trout didn't do that. I don't think Ohtani will make the same mistake when he hits free agency.
Interesting thing about the last 7 games of the Royals 1985 Season, they had seven different MVPs, as measured by WPA, and still Brett's name isn't there.
Game 1: Saberhagen
Game 2: Mike Witt (Royals lost)
Game 3: Bud Black
Game 4: Danny Jackson
Game 5: Quisenberry
Game 6: Willie Wilson
Game 7: Mike Gallego (Royals lost)
So the Royals went 5-2, and one of their pitchers was the MVP in 4 out of 5 wins, and Willie Wilson was the other Royals MVP. Yeah, that screams "George Brett carried the team" to me.
Bill James, BTW, is from the KC area and overrates virtually everyone who ever played in KC (A's and Royals).
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Anybody that knows anything at all about baseball can clearly see that Trouty doesn't have what it takes. He's missing that "winner's gene".
If you've followed every comment I've made on this topic for 5 years, none of what is occurring with Trouty should be a surprise. I actually pretty clearly predicted this lengthy downward trend in the Mr Clutch thread, a.k.a. The University of Countdouglas thread.
Trouty earns his greatness label by compiling stats in games that have no consequence in the standings, or in game situations that have no bearing on the outcome, and completely disappears in games against the elite clubs, or in otherwise clutch situations. That is undeniable. If you say otherwise, then I question if you've ever actually watched a baseball game where Trouty was playing. Sure, he'll come through on the random occasions, but even Mario Mendoza could get a hit 2 out of 10 times. Overall, Trouty can be counted on to shrink in the big moments.
He is so untrustworthy in situations when you need him, that you can peruse every other MLB roster and find at least 5 guys that you'd send up there to pinch hit for Trouty in even just a quasi-pressure situation. That is not hyperbole, and if you deny this, you're not being honest with yourself. Heck, you could likely even find several guys on the minor league rosters that you would send up there. (That perhaps straddles hyperbole, but only perhaps.)
All of you stat nerds that just watch highlights and then walk into Harvard bars trying to impress the ladies by regurgitating facts you grabbed off of the internet, clearly not actually knowing the material, I only have one thing to say:
The Countdouglas method is back. In the Countdouglas method he STILL does not understand that MB hitters make more outs than they get hits. Everything countdouglas has said against one player has been proven false and only a countdouglas method can be his defense.
Countdouglass STILL believe that Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, and Willie Mays could not handle pressure and are unworthy of the praise they get.
As such it still stands that the following is true:
Based on Countdouglas nethods, Brett gave away 1976 and 1977 post season away with his defense. He gave 1981 away with no hitting. He gave away 1984 with no hitting. He was a non factor in 1985 as Buddy Bianacalana was the guy who outshined him and went to Letterman, and Saberhagen and others carried him. And of course:
Even after Brett's bad fielding gave up the lead, Brett STILL had a chance to be a hero. They were only down by one run heading into the bottom of the 9th. There was a man on first base and nobody out and George Brett came up for the biggest at bat of his career. Countdouglas has said it only counts when done in the biggest moment. World Series tied 2-2. Bottom of the 9th inning, man on first, down by one, so therefore represents George Brett's biggest at bat of his career.
In fact, by the expression on this fan's face, she was crying and praying for George Brett to come through. Many 'clutch' moments are often assigned AFTER the fact. Here we can see the anguish of the fans how big this clutch moment was BEFORE it unfolded.
Time for George to step up for the biggest at bat of his career. Countdouglas likes pitch by pitch accounts. Keep in mind that Brett had already given the lead away in the top half of the inning.
First pitch check swing called strike.
Second pitch Brett swings right through it.
How ironic that on the third pitch Brett gets caught looking. Now I know why Countdouglas is obsessed with Mike Trout getting caught looking in that mere first round divisional playoff game. It is because his hero lost his team the World Series(twice) by getting rung up on three pitches in the biggest at bat of his career and in the Royals franchise history to date.
Here he is walking bat after the biggest choke job in Royals history. Choking in the field in the top of the 9th and then compounding it by choking in the bottom of the 9th getting rung up, therefore rendering ALL of his 'lack of strikeouts' in his career pointless because he struck out when it mattered the absolute most in his career and that franchise's history to date.
@Darin said:
Oh sorry all you experts, I guess it was unreasonable for me to think the Angels should be ahead
of the Rangers in the standings simply because the Angels have the two best players in baseball
and one of them even pitches.
You would think before any pitches are even thrown that would be a fairly decent advantage.
I guess the Angels are over performing as they should be in last place huh all you baseball gurus'?
The Rangers have a bona fide World Series MVP on their roster who has gone to the post season every year in his career, so based on your flawed premises, the Rangers should be in first place right now
Other than that, just because you are not familiar with who is on the Rangers does not make them any better/worse than they are...it just highlights that you don't know as much as you are putting forth. Their team is a hair better than the Angels. The Angels just happen to get a higher percentage of their production from two players while the Rangers have it spread out more evenly among their entire roster. Nothing more nothing less. No crack pot theories needed.
1948_Swell_Robinson,
If you are going to regurgitate the same thing every time CountDouglas posts, could you stop including the pictures? It is annoying to have to scroll through the exact same post over and over again.
@dallasactuary said:
Interesting thing about the last 7 games of the Royals 1985 Season, they had seven different MVPs, as measured by WPA, and still Brett's name isn't there.
Game 1: Saberhagen
Game 2: Mike Witt (Royals lost)
Game 3: Bud Black
Game 4: Danny Jackson
Game 5: Quisenberry
Game 6: Willie Wilson
Game 7: Mike Gallego (Royals lost)
So the Royals went 5-2, and one of their pitchers was the MVP in 4 out of 5 wins, and Willie Wilson was the other Royals MVP. Yeah, that screams "George Brett carried the team" to me.
Bill James, BTW, is from the KC area and overrates virtually everyone who ever played in KC (A's and Royals).
One of the funniest posts I've ever read.
So if you had to name a cumulative MVP for the Royals over those last 7 games who would it be?
@Darin said:
One of the funniest posts I've ever read.
So if you had to name a cumulative MVP for the Royals over those last 7 games who would it be?
Probably Brett, but my point was that to say that Brett "carried" the Royals is a massive overstatement with so many other people contributing. And if one understands MVP to mean Most Valuable Position, the answer (both for the final week and most every other week) is "pitcher", since the 1985 Royals were a well below average hitting team that could only compete because of their outstanding pitching.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@fergie23 said:
1948_Swell_Robinson,
If you are going to regurgitate the same thing every time CountDouglas posts, could you stop including the pictures? It is annoying to have to scroll through the exact same post over and over again.
Robb
Robb, I apologize to the logical thinkers like yourself. To the countdouglas fan club, you are gonna have to keep seeing them as long as the countdouglas method posts are still being put out there.
Ironically, being 'annoying 'was part of the point as they are mimicking what Countdouglas did with the picture of Mike Trout striking out in the playoffs.
That is the Countdouglas method for you...and I am just using his method. I know it is cringeworthy and many feel the same way as this lady did after Brett choked in the biggest at bat he has ever had.
#LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
it sure sounds like this most recent injury may drag on and on and on like last seasons leg injury. i read that trout received a cortisone shot and it will take time to reveal if it will alleviate the pain. Mike has already missed 16 games, with more on the way. at first this was a scratch because of back spasms. that turned into dtd, then the 10 day IL. now he is getting a cortisone shot in the joint between his spine and rib.
I have very serious doubts that we will ever see another full season of play from Trout. he has not had a full season since 2016.
@craig44 said:
it sure sounds like this most recent injury may drag on and on and on like last seasons leg injury. i read that trout received a cortisone shot and it will take time to reveal if it will alleviate the pain. Mike has already missed 16 games, with more on the way. at first this was a scratch because of back spasms. that turned into dtd, then the 10 day IL. now he is getting a cortisone shot in the joint between his spine and rib.
I have very serious doubts that we will ever see another full season of play from Trout. he has not had a full season since 2016.
He actually lasted longer this year than I thought he would.
Its fine because they can replace Trout with a league average player and the Angels
will finish in the standings right about where they are now. No difference in the amount
of games won by the Angels whether he is in or out of the lineup, unlike most superstar players.
Must be tough to be 30 years old and washed up.
At least Trout is happy as can be being out of the lineup and being able to watch the weather channel 24/7.
I actually think it would be best if he quit baseball now and started his career as a weatherman.
Plus his statistics wouldn't be impacted by the 'old man years' like so many of the great players.
At least Trout is happy as can be being out of the lineup and being able to watch the weather channel shark week 24/7.
I actually think it would be best if he quit baseball now and started his career as a weatherman shark whisperer.
You could replace Ohtani with a league average player and the Angels would still suck. It is not a reflection on the star player(s).
I was hoping Trout would have a season where he stayed healthy. Unfortunately, it looks like he just can't manage it anymore. He lost a lot of his prime to injury and the COVID shortened season, which will significantly hurt his cumulative stats and place on the all time greats ladder. Availability is a skill as well and for whatever reason, Trout just hasn't demonstrated it once he hit what is typically the prime years for an MLBer.
Not sure he qualifies as 'washed up' given that he was a top 3 player when the injury bug hit him. That said, after a hot start he has been pretty terrible the last 6-8 weeks before being put on the IL. I still think he has another MVP season in him over the next 5 years, but he will need the stars to align health-wise and have the Angels make the playoffs. I am not sure which of those two is less likely though given how poor the Angels roster is.
What he should do is lift more weights like really heavy benching and squats. 235 LBS is not heavy enough right now. He needs to be about 265 for his legs and joints to feel good running in the outfield.....Just kidding. Some of these guys started at about 190 and now they are bigger than some NFL full backs. The bulk helps him hit HRs; but hurts every other part of his game. I wonder what trainers really think about these things. Seriously???
now the news comes out that Trout has a more serious injury than previously thought. He has a "rare spinal condition" that is chronic and may affect the rest of his career. the angels are hoping trout will play again this season. sounds very familiar to last seasons minor calf injury.
i think after this revelation that Trouts last full season will have been the 2016 season. his cumulative stats will no doubt suffer.
will he make it to 500 HRs? He had already regressed fairly significantly this season. not in power, but with his plate discipline.
it is a shame. lots of talent, but made of glass. He turns 31 in a few weeks. it is interesting that Pujols also had a fairly severe dropoff in rate stats in his early 30s while still hitting some home runs.
@Mickey71 said:
What he should do is lift more weights like really heavy benching and squats. 235 LBS is not heavy enough right now. He needs to be about 265 for his legs and joints to feel good running in the outfield.....Just kidding. Some of these guys started at about 190 and now they are bigger than some NFL full backs. The bulk helps him hit HRs; but hurts every other part of his game. I wonder what trainers really think about these things. Seriously???
Trout actually has chicken legs. So he probably should be doing some heavy leg work.
@craig44 said:
now the news comes out that Trout has a more serious injury than previously thought. He has a "rare spinal condition" that is chronic and may affect the rest of his career. the angels are hoping trout will play again this season. sounds very familiar to last seasons minor calf injury.
i think after this revelation that Trouts last full season will have been the 2016 season. his cumulative stats will no doubt suffer.
will he make it to 500 HRs? He had already regressed fairly significantly this season. not in power, but with his plate discipline.
it is a shame. lots of talent, but made of glass. He turns 31 in a few weeks. it is interesting that Pujols also had a fairly severe dropoff in rate stats in his early 30s while still hitting some home runs.
Only time will tell, but that news does not look promising.
@82FootballWaxMemorys said:
According to Jeff Passan, Nothing more exciting in MLB history than watching Trout walk to first base in a regular season blow out game.
A statistician's dream but I find Trouts style of play to be boring. Still I do hope is he able to play on the Angels for many years to come.
What style of play is that? Because he knows how to get on base and walks? Forget for a moment that he has spent half of his career batting first or second in the lineup and that players like Rickey Henderson are lauded for walking from those spots.
Mike Trout has averaged 40 home runs per 162 games. 40. Reggie Jackson through age 30 only averaged 32 home runs per 162. Reggie Jackson is known as one of the most exciting home run hitters in history and Trout did that better.
In fact, hitting home runs is pretty much all Reggie Jackson is known for as a hitter and Trout has hit home runs at a better rate than Reggie has.
Dave Winfield is a member of the 3,000 hit club and he averaged 166 hits per 162 games though age 30. Trout has averaged 177.
Eddie Murray hit 560 doubles in his career and through age 30 he averaged 32 doubles per 162 games. Trout has averaged 34 doubles per 162 games.
Jim Rice was basically put into the HOF because a Fenway aided 341 total bases per 162 games through age 30. Trout has averaged 342 Total bases per 162.
You want to hammer Trout on injuries, he is fair game for that...the guy needs to be on the field more. However, players like George Brett were injury prone and made of glass too.
The clutch stuff is all nonsense, where even if Trout did produce 10% worse in the 'clutch' spots, he is still above everyone else(in his league) while operating at 90% efficiency in his ability. But if you somehow want to cling to that notion of him not clutch, knock yourself out.
And I can go through tons of HOF players and severely knock them for their anti clutch ability....many of them heroes of people who make these idiotic comments...and many of them failing in the biggest spots in their career(like Brett did).
Keep in mind that Mike Trout has hit more go ahead home runs than George Brett did in his entire career. So there is that.
But for someone like Jeff Passon to say that taking a walk encapsulates Trout's style of play makes Passon a complete idiot and knows nothing about baseball.
As for the boring part.... I got news for you, then the entire style of baseball is extremely boring for a large segment of the population, and maybe those clinging to some of these notions need to just stick to commenting on football or basketball, because they simply don't understand baseball.
....Oh, and Rickey Henderson had .400 OB% through age 30 as a table setter....and Trout's is .416. So for that moron Jeff Passan who has probably wet his panties giving Henderson all this credit as a table setter....Trout did that better than Henderson too. What a F*#&g moron.
PS all these idiotic comments applied selectively to Trout, and all this complete ignorance on not understanding the value of a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR...and OUT MADE kind of reminds me of the people who are patting themselves on the back(and the people supporting these people) for 'bringing down' gas prices 30 cents a gallon and then completely ignoring that they are coming down from all time highs and still priced much higher than they were pre-covid and during the covid rebound.
Oh, these same people said that "supply and demand determines gas prices, not leaders," and then blamed another leader for the increase in prices.
But the kicker is, they say they aren't responsible for the increase in gas prices....but then take credit for the meager drop in gas prices.
Those are your Trout basher methods in a nutshell.
Comments
Agree completely, these fools that think that championships (or lack thereof) are because of one guy, are clueless.
I guess Killebrew and Banks sucked as well.
Cobb too. Never won a WS and hit poorly in the ones he was in. Same for Mays though they did win one, but he didn't hit too well in his appearances.
I guess these guys have to remove Williams, Cobb, and Mays off their all time lists/teams etc if they are to show any consistency.
Oh sorry all you experts, I guess it was unreasonable for me to think the Angels should be ahead
of the Rangers in the standings simply because the Angels have the two best players in baseball
and one of them even pitches.
You would think before any pitches are even thrown that would be a fairly decent advantage.
I guess the Angels are over performing as they should be in last place huh all you baseball gurus'?
Yes I guess on paper the Rangers are a complete juggernaut!
Thanks all you gurus' for convincing me I was wrong to think the Angels should be ahead
of the Rangers in the standings. Future HOF'ers at every position for the vaunted Rangers Big Blue Machine.
Boy you guys' knowledge of baseball is amazing.
Thanks for showing me how Ohtani and Trout should have no impact whatsoever on where the Angels are in the standings.
By the way, why can't one lone position player lead his team to the postseason?
George Brett sure did in 1985. You guys just have low expectations for Trout based on past performance.
This is from Dallas' hero Bill James and describes what Brett accomplished............
I think in the Yankee comment I wrote that Henderson had to be the best player in baseball in 1985. Now that I think about it, I realize that it has to be Brett. Brett created more runs with a much higher offensive winning percentage, a phenomenal .861. Brett won, and deserved, a Gold Glove. Brett's team won the pennant. And Brett, with the pennant on the line in the last week of the season, had what may well be as good a week as any player ever had under those conditions, hitting two doubles and driving in two runs on Sunday, homering and driving in two more on Monday, singling to drive in one on Tuesday, hitting a single, a double, and a three-run homer on Wednesday, homering again on Thursday, homering again on Friday, adding an RBI single as a bonus, and finishing it off with a 2-run homer on Saturday -- seven crucial games, five homers, 3 doubles, 13 RBI, one pennant. Willie Stargell won the MVP award in 1979 for having one hot week, and his week wasn't that good. I didn't see it at first because I was over-compensating for being a Royals fan, but if you step back and look at it, of course Brett was the MVP.
I guess I just expect more from a superstar baseball player.
Grew up as a Brett fan and he always seemed to put the Royals on his back and lead them to the playoffs.
I guess its my fault for not realizing that Trout doesn't have that same ability to do that for his team.
In the future I'll lower my expectations of him like you guys have done. Its just kind of sad.
Well its my birthday today. Going to the casino for a while this afternoon to celebrate
and have a few Bud lights. Feeling really good because last year at this time I had cancer
and had surgery at the end of July. And also feeling good because I have six straight days off
from work which hasn't happened in a long time.
Wishing good health and happiness to all you so called baseball gurus!
Royals were second in the league in ERA in 1985....had the Cy Young award winner and had a total of three pitchers in top ten in Cy Young voting.
They played in a crap division in the 1980's...and were fortunate to make the playoffs a couple times as a result.
I agree though that Brett was an MVP over Mattingly in 1985. Brett had an amazing year in 1985. No doubt at all.
Its too bad that Brett pissed away those LCS in the 1970's and pissed away the World Series in 1980(twice in one inning)....and lucky that Saberhagen carried them to the World Series in 1985.
The Angels are as high in the standings as they are only because they have Trout and Ohtani. They simply would be worse without them.
Happy Birthday. Enjoy your day at the Casino. Life is short and enjoy those Bud Lights.
We are just having some fun discussing this here.
Health and prosperity to all.
Swell, for god's sake its a 40 year old picture, its just weird for you to have a crush on her.
Just think about what she looks like today and maybe you can get over her.
At least promise to try because we're all getting tired of the pic.
Thanks swell.
And I'll quit having such high expectations of Trout being able to lead his team to
any kind of success like Brett was so often able to do.
Flip on MLB network in the morning...they talk about Trout and give him his due...but more importantly, Lauren Shehadi is one of the hosts and she is quite more my style than the women crying after Brett struck out in game 5.
Darin,
It is odd that the year that you believe Brett as a lone position player led his team to the postseason, the Royals had the Cy Young winner and the 2nd best ERA in the AL...seems like perhaps Brett didn't actually lead his team to the postseason so much at play on a very good team with lots of other contributors.
Doesn't mean he wasn't a great player or didn't have a great season in 1985. Just means that he didn't single handedly cause the Royals to make the postseason. Trout is a generational talent, who decided to stick with a losing organization. I don't know why he didn't prioritize winning and re-upped for life with the Angels, but unless the Angels find some pitching he won't have much of a postseason legacy.
Robb
lets steer this discussion back towards Trout for a bit.
we are now about halfway through the season. a pretty good sample size. on the plus side: Trout has stayed healthy, he has played in 74 out of 83 team games. that will put him on pace for around 144 games played. His power numbers have been very impressive. He is amongst the league leaders in both home runs and slugging percentage.
on the negative side: he is not getting on base at nearly the clip we are used to. His OBP is down .35 from his career average and 60-80 points from his peak. I have not seen him play this season, so i am not too sure what is going on here.
His plate discipline seems to be bad. walks and BA are both way down and strikeouts are up. he is on pace to K more than any other season of his career.
I cant shake that this is how other players have started the decline phase. Trout seems too young to be there yet though. He has abandoned the stolen base part of his game. only 4 attempts in the last 3 seasons. Maybe the years of carrying 240 pounds of bulk in CF have caught up?
I remember Frank Thomas having a similar decline. he went years as a high BA/OBP player with power. then as the bat got slower, the BA/OBP dropped, but the power stayed till nearly the end.
can anyone add anything about Trouts play this season that I have missed?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You hit the nail on the head...... he is tooooooooooo heavy. 4th and goal and I would give him the ball. Wait, he plays baseball. It is hurting every aspect of his game except pure power. His defense has suffered to. Stolen Bases....you can forget about that. That part of his game has long since been over. I'm not convinced he is ever going to reach any magic numbers; but he will be looked upon as an all time great when it is said and done; but anyone can see that his total game has changed. I don't understand all the need to put on more muscle. It hurts the rest of the body over years of wear and tear.
yes, it is very very hard on the joints. too hard on the knees to be running around CF with that kind of bulk.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You're correct, I should have said they had excellent pitching all year and an MVP third baseman and that the last week of the season when they were behind the Angels 1 or 2 games in the standings he put the Royals on his back and carried his team to the division title over California. Now you can't read the synopsis from Bill James in my previous post about what Brett did in that last week and say my comment is incorrect. If you read what his numbers were and say he didn't lead
his team to the division title in that last week then its you guys who know very little about baseball.
Craig, I think its clear Trout is on the downside curve of his career. For some players it happens earlier than others.
I think playing on a pathetic team year after year has to drain you mentally and physically as time goes on.
What's his motivation for even showing up at the ballpark? Money? He's got plenty of that.
He goes into every year knowing the Angels won't get into the playoffs. No matter how professionally you conduct
yourself that has to wear on you and ultimately affect your play on the field.
He's just punching the clock at this point in time, hoping for short games so his work day is over quicker
so he can go home and watch the weather channel.
I just find it funny that swell only posts about Brett choking in the playoffs when he
was always the main reason for the Royals getting into the playoffs.
Replace Brett with a league average player and the Royals never make the playoffs back in those days.
That's why I just can't understand why Trout and Ohtani together can't even propel the Angels
past the Rangers in the standings. How many superstars do they need to get past Texas?
If they had the 5 best players in baseball would that be enough? 6 or 7?
Darin,
None of Brett's heroics would have mattered without pitching. Brett didn't get 27 outs a game and prevent the other team from scoring more runs than he drove in or scored. Of course, in a 162 game season if Brett had just carried his team earlier in the season they wouldn't have needed his help at the end, no? While I do think end of year play matters, the reality is that a win in April means as much to the overall standings as a regular season win in September.
As for Trout, he still has plenty of speed. I guarantee the Angels have told him to stop trying to steal bases to prevent injury. He also has been very streaky this year, more so than I previously remember. I am not really sure being a top 3 player in MLB is much of a decline or the downside curve of his career. However, you never know. Things can go bad very quickly in baseball and a couple more prolonged slumps from Trout and people will have to adjust their expectations going forward.
The Angels are simply a bad team, it really isn't that hard to figure out. They have 2 of the 5 best players in MLB and can't win. Ohtani had a season for the ages last year and couldn't lead them to the playoffs. Folks who think that makes his season less amazing just don't understand that baseball is a team sport. One or even two players can't elevate a truly bad team. Most players would get fed up with the losing and underperformance of those around them and leave. For whatever reason, Trout didn't do that. I don't think Ohtani will make the same mistake when he hits free agency.
Robb
Interesting thing about the last 7 games of the Royals 1985 Season, they had seven different MVPs, as measured by WPA, and still Brett's name isn't there.
Game 1: Saberhagen
Game 2: Mike Witt (Royals lost)
Game 3: Bud Black
Game 4: Danny Jackson
Game 5: Quisenberry
Game 6: Willie Wilson
Game 7: Mike Gallego (Royals lost)
So the Royals went 5-2, and one of their pitchers was the MVP in 4 out of 5 wins, and Willie Wilson was the other Royals MVP. Yeah, that screams "George Brett carried the team" to me.
Bill James, BTW, is from the KC area and overrates virtually everyone who ever played in KC (A's and Royals).
Anybody that knows anything at all about baseball can clearly see that Trouty doesn't have what it takes. He's missing that "winner's gene".
If you've followed every comment I've made on this topic for 5 years, none of what is occurring with Trouty should be a surprise. I actually pretty clearly predicted this lengthy downward trend in the Mr Clutch thread, a.k.a. The University of Countdouglas thread.
Trouty earns his greatness label by compiling stats in games that have no consequence in the standings, or in game situations that have no bearing on the outcome, and completely disappears in games against the elite clubs, or in otherwise clutch situations. That is undeniable. If you say otherwise, then I question if you've ever actually watched a baseball game where Trouty was playing. Sure, he'll come through on the random occasions, but even Mario Mendoza could get a hit 2 out of 10 times. Overall, Trouty can be counted on to shrink in the big moments.
He is so untrustworthy in situations when you need him, that you can peruse every other MLB roster and find at least 5 guys that you'd send up there to pinch hit for Trouty in even just a quasi-pressure situation. That is not hyperbole, and if you deny this, you're not being honest with yourself. Heck, you could likely even find several guys on the minor league rosters that you would send up there. (That perhaps straddles hyperbole, but only perhaps.)
All of you stat nerds that just watch highlights and then walk into Harvard bars trying to impress the ladies by regurgitating facts you grabbed off of the internet, clearly not actually knowing the material, I only have one thing to say:
The Countdouglas method is back. In the Countdouglas method he STILL does not understand that MB hitters make more outs than they get hits. Everything countdouglas has said against one player has been proven false and only a countdouglas method can be his defense.
Countdouglass STILL believe that Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, and Willie Mays could not handle pressure and are unworthy of the praise they get.
As such it still stands that the following is true:
Based on Countdouglas nethods, Brett gave away 1976 and 1977 post season away with his defense. He gave 1981 away with no hitting. He gave away 1984 with no hitting. He was a non factor in 1985 as Buddy Bianacalana was the guy who outshined him and went to Letterman, and Saberhagen and others carried him. And of course:
Even after Brett's bad fielding gave up the lead, Brett STILL had a chance to be a hero. They were only down by one run heading into the bottom of the 9th. There was a man on first base and nobody out and George Brett came up for the biggest at bat of his career. Countdouglas has said it only counts when done in the biggest moment. World Series tied 2-2. Bottom of the 9th inning, man on first, down by one, so therefore represents George Brett's biggest at bat of his career.
In fact, by the expression on this fan's face, she was crying and praying for George Brett to come through. Many 'clutch' moments are often assigned AFTER the fact. Here we can see the anguish of the fans how big this clutch moment was BEFORE it unfolded.
Time for George to step up for the biggest at bat of his career. Countdouglas likes pitch by pitch accounts. Keep in mind that Brett had already given the lead away in the top half of the inning.
First pitch check swing called strike.
Second pitch Brett swings right through it.
How ironic that on the third pitch Brett gets caught looking. Now I know why Countdouglas is obsessed with Mike Trout getting caught looking in that mere first round divisional playoff game. It is because his hero lost his team the World Series(twice) by getting rung up on three pitches in the biggest at bat of his career and in the Royals franchise history to date.
Here he is walking bat after the biggest choke job in Royals history. Choking in the field in the top of the 9th and then compounding it by choking in the bottom of the 9th getting rung up, therefore rendering ALL of his 'lack of strikeouts' in his career pointless because he struck out when it mattered the absolute most in his career and that franchise's history to date.
The Rangers have a bona fide World Series MVP on their roster who has gone to the post season every year in his career, so based on your flawed premises, the Rangers should be in first place right now
Other than that, just because you are not familiar with who is on the Rangers does not make them any better/worse than they are...it just highlights that you don't know as much as you are putting forth. Their team is a hair better than the Angels. The Angels just happen to get a higher percentage of their production from two players while the Rangers have it spread out more evenly among their entire roster. Nothing more nothing less. No crack pot theories needed.
1948_Swell_Robinson,
If you are going to regurgitate the same thing every time CountDouglas posts, could you stop including the pictures? It is annoying to have to scroll through the exact same post over and over again.
Robb
One of the funniest posts I've ever read.
So if you had to name a cumulative MVP for the Royals over those last 7 games who would it be?
Probably Brett, but my point was that to say that Brett "carried" the Royals is a massive overstatement with so many other people contributing. And if one understands MVP to mean Most Valuable Position, the answer (both for the final week and most every other week) is "pitcher", since the 1985 Royals were a well below average hitting team that could only compete because of their outstanding pitching.
Robb, I apologize to the logical thinkers like yourself. To the countdouglas fan club, you are gonna have to keep seeing them as long as the countdouglas method posts are still being put out there.
Ironically, being 'annoying 'was part of the point as they are mimicking what Countdouglas did with the picture of Mike Trout striking out in the playoffs.
That is the Countdouglas method for you...and I am just using his method. I know it is cringeworthy and many feel the same way as this lady did after Brett choked in the biggest at bat he has ever had.
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what a remarkable thread this has been
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Too funny love it!
it sure sounds like this most recent injury may drag on and on and on like last seasons leg injury. i read that trout received a cortisone shot and it will take time to reveal if it will alleviate the pain. Mike has already missed 16 games, with more on the way. at first this was a scratch because of back spasms. that turned into dtd, then the 10 day IL. now he is getting a cortisone shot in the joint between his spine and rib.
I have very serious doubts that we will ever see another full season of play from Trout. he has not had a full season since 2016.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You may be right.
He actually lasted longer this year than I thought he would.
Its fine because they can replace Trout with a league average player and the Angels
will finish in the standings right about where they are now. No difference in the amount
of games won by the Angels whether he is in or out of the lineup, unlike most superstar players.
Must be tough to be 30 years old and washed up.
At least Trout is happy as can be being out of the lineup and being able to watch the weather channel 24/7.
I actually think it would be best if he quit baseball now and started his career as a weatherman.
Plus his statistics wouldn't be impacted by the 'old man years' like so many of the great players.
i tend to agree
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
You could replace Ohtani with a league average player and the Angels would still suck. It is not a reflection on the star player(s).
I was hoping Trout would have a season where he stayed healthy. Unfortunately, it looks like he just can't manage it anymore. He lost a lot of his prime to injury and the COVID shortened season, which will significantly hurt his cumulative stats and place on the all time greats ladder. Availability is a skill as well and for whatever reason, Trout just hasn't demonstrated it once he hit what is typically the prime years for an MLBer.
Not sure he qualifies as 'washed up' given that he was a top 3 player when the injury bug hit him. That said, after a hot start he has been pretty terrible the last 6-8 weeks before being put on the IL. I still think he has another MVP season in him over the next 5 years, but he will need the stars to align health-wise and have the Angels make the playoffs. I am not sure which of those two is less likely though given how poor the Angels roster is.
Robb
What he should do is lift more weights like really heavy benching and squats. 235 LBS is not heavy enough right now. He needs to be about 265 for his legs and joints to feel good running in the outfield.....Just kidding. Some of these guys started at about 190 and now they are bigger than some NFL full backs. The bulk helps him hit HRs; but hurts every other part of his game. I wonder what trainers really think about these things. Seriously???
now the news comes out that Trout has a more serious injury than previously thought. He has a "rare spinal condition" that is chronic and may affect the rest of his career. the angels are hoping trout will play again this season. sounds very familiar to last seasons minor calf injury.
i think after this revelation that Trouts last full season will have been the 2016 season. his cumulative stats will no doubt suffer.
will he make it to 500 HRs? He had already regressed fairly significantly this season. not in power, but with his plate discipline.
it is a shame. lots of talent, but made of glass. He turns 31 in a few weeks. it is interesting that Pujols also had a fairly severe dropoff in rate stats in his early 30s while still hitting some home runs.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Trout actually has chicken legs. So he probably should be doing some heavy leg work.
Only time will tell, but that news does not look promising.
According to Jeff Passan, Nothing more exciting in MLB history than watching Trout walk to first base in a regular season blow out game.
A statistician's dream but I find Trouts style of play to be boring. Still I do hope is he able to play on the Angels for many years to come.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
What style of play is that? Because he knows how to get on base and walks? Forget for a moment that he has spent half of his career batting first or second in the lineup and that players like Rickey Henderson are lauded for walking from those spots.
Mike Trout has averaged 40 home runs per 162 games. 40. Reggie Jackson through age 30 only averaged 32 home runs per 162. Reggie Jackson is known as one of the most exciting home run hitters in history and Trout did that better.
In fact, hitting home runs is pretty much all Reggie Jackson is known for as a hitter and Trout has hit home runs at a better rate than Reggie has.
Dave Winfield is a member of the 3,000 hit club and he averaged 166 hits per 162 games though age 30. Trout has averaged 177.
Eddie Murray hit 560 doubles in his career and through age 30 he averaged 32 doubles per 162 games. Trout has averaged 34 doubles per 162 games.
Jim Rice was basically put into the HOF because a Fenway aided 341 total bases per 162 games through age 30. Trout has averaged 342 Total bases per 162.
You want to hammer Trout on injuries, he is fair game for that...the guy needs to be on the field more. However, players like George Brett were injury prone and made of glass too.
The clutch stuff is all nonsense, where even if Trout did produce 10% worse in the 'clutch' spots, he is still above everyone else(in his league) while operating at 90% efficiency in his ability. But if you somehow want to cling to that notion of him not clutch, knock yourself out.
And I can go through tons of HOF players and severely knock them for their anti clutch ability....many of them heroes of people who make these idiotic comments...and many of them failing in the biggest spots in their career(like Brett did).
Keep in mind that Mike Trout has hit more go ahead home runs than George Brett did in his entire career. So there is that.
But for someone like Jeff Passon to say that taking a walk encapsulates Trout's style of play makes Passon a complete idiot and knows nothing about baseball.
As for the boring part.... I got news for you, then the entire style of baseball is extremely boring for a large segment of the population, and maybe those clinging to some of these notions need to just stick to commenting on football or basketball, because they simply don't understand baseball.
....Oh, and Rickey Henderson had .400 OB% through age 30 as a table setter....and Trout's is .416. So for that moron Jeff Passan who has probably wet his panties giving Henderson all this credit as a table setter....Trout did that better than Henderson too. What a F*#&g moron.
PS all these idiotic comments applied selectively to Trout, and all this complete ignorance on not understanding the value of a BB, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR...and OUT MADE kind of reminds me of the people who are patting themselves on the back(and the people supporting these people) for 'bringing down' gas prices 30 cents a gallon and then completely ignoring that they are coming down from all time highs and still priced much higher than they were pre-covid and during the covid rebound.
Oh, these same people said that "supply and demand determines gas prices, not leaders," and then blamed another leader for the increase in prices.
But the kicker is, they say they aren't responsible for the increase in gas prices....but then take credit for the meager drop in gas prices.
Those are your Trout basher methods in a nutshell.
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