CAC Suspends "Normal Tier" Submission for June, 2022.
DelawareDoons
Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
Demand for CAC's services and their coins clearly remains very high.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
1
Comments
Deleted, as date in thread title has been corrected.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thanks DD. I was preparing a small submission but will hold onto it until July.
At some point, I believe they should charge a small fee for unstickered submissions. This would increase revenue and serve as a deterrent for "tossing in the kitchen sink" when creating an order. I know I have included coins I felt had very little chance to pass but with no cost penalty, I included them anyway.
Tim
Thanks for pointing it out!
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
fwiw, last time someone posted one of these, it said that X tier would be suspended but the fine print stated, it in fact, would not. perhaps dig a little bit to see what is actually what.
it may have been something to discourage some submissions that would help them catch up but for those still sending orders in, would still have their items processed.
.> @LanceNewmanOCC said:
That's not what I recall. It seems clear what, is what.
Edited to add: Perhaps you're thinking about the option that was available, which allowed lower value coins to still be submitted, but for the cost/fee which corresponded with the higher value tier.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
From here:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1071697/cac-suspending-regular-tier-subs
Dear CAC member,
URGENT
As of March 1st, 2022, CAC will be unable to process your orders using our regular tier ($16). Our current backlog is at a record level. Turnaround time for completion is unacceptable and not consistent with our mission of providing great service to our members. We are hoping we can restore this service by April 1st. Please keep an eye on our website and Emails for updates on this matter.
Our resticker ($5), high value $10,000- $25,000($35) and rarities over $25,000 ($75) tiers will remain open. The only other option in our toolbox was to raise fees dramatically—again, unacceptable. I feel this is the best option.
Also- if possible, please use Federal Express as opposed to Express Mail going forward as the Bedminster Post Office has threatened to file multiple grievances against CAC. The reason: They’re Too Busy? We’re not quite sure - we’ve always treated them in a professional and friendly manner
Note- This change will affect all submissions postmarked 3/1/2022 and after. Coins under the $10,000 threshold may still be submitted on the $35 tier forms during this time.
.
this.
Oh, the humanity!!!
have included coins I felt had very little chance to pass but with no cost penalty, I included them anyway.
What's your track record on those very little chance to pass coins?
Just checked my submissions for the past year. My overall success rate is 65% green and 2.5% gold. But my success rate with "fillers" is probably under 20%. I would say a good 15% to 20% of the submissions were these "filler" type add-on's. But with no out of pocket for those failures, I'm only out the insurance cost which was minimal.
If they charged a small fee for those coins which did not pass, I would have probably not submitted them as they were mostly the low end variety.
Tim
yup, times they are a changing............. this is just gonna keep on happening.
Nice statistics; especially with the ones you did not think would pass! I suspected the mix of submitters is heavily weighted towards dealers and auction houses.
I don’t blame CAC for capitalizing on the opportunity. I would make the changes permanent to keep low value coins from being submitted in bulk with hopes of a gold bean.
If they're doing this to capitalize on the opportunity, they probably could/would have initiated higher fees - and permanent ones, at that - long ago. They could also charge collectors for coins that don't sticker. Though many people don't believe in such possibilities, sometimes, it really isn't about the money.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agree. CAC is doing this as a public service for their love of the hobby.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
You're (sarcastically) agreeing with something I didn't say.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The economics are dictating the flood of submissions they are getting. I don't know what part of the business is the most costly or labor intensive and how that could be addressed, but I'm sure they have looked at all options.
I honestly don't think it's about the money for JA. He's been highly successful in the hobby for decades... He could probably comfortably retire now if he wanted to. I think he runs CAC out of a passion for the hobby, and as a side benefit, he can use CAC to help take care of some of his family. I don't know for sure, but I think they might be one fo those families where the hobby just runs in their blood. If I remember correctly from about 3-4 years ago, JA is on the record as saying they don't make a ton off stickering fees, most of their income comes from making a wholesale market in beaned coins.
At some point, with the ability to do what you enjoy and spend time with family, the money is just a fringe benefit.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
A possibility that some people simply can't grasp.......
It is frustrating to see this just after the submission suspension, but I think JA is handling this the best way he can - I cannot think of any viable alternatives. Hopefully when my pending submissions come back things will cool down at CAC
I'm sure you know that when it comes to taking shots at dealers, it's always "open season".
It's too bad the shots aren't reserved for those harming the hobby, but it is what it is.
The other alternative is to increase costs for each tier. I think that would be a better way to do it because the demand shows that his service is in demand and people should be willing to pay more. I think you get so much value from a CAC sticker for what it costs now.
But JA is doing the right thing for the collectors by keeping price the same but just not sticker any normal tier coins until he can finish the backlog. Though it does effectively increases the $16 tier to $35 if people think it's worth it to submit <$10k coins for a sticker.
Follow me on MyCollect!
While I agree the value is there, increasing the cost only a small amount will not decrease the number of coins being submitted - the demand will still be there!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Then the cost should be increased more. It's all about supply and demand. The only other option is for JA to not look at every coin, but that would reduce the quality of CAC and no one wants that. Cost should be at a point where supply (JA's time) meets demand (people willing to pay for CAC stickers at that price). People obviously see the value CAC is providing.
Follow me on MyCollect!
There can be no doubt that with the CAC choke point being reached twice in a matter of months that this service is here to stay (and after 14 years in business, of course). The bifurcation in the market has been cemented and it's a no brainer for dealers and collectors to send in coins to capture the premium assigned to those coins who get the bean.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I wonder what percentage of the coins are submitted by collectors, who only pay a fee if their coins sticker?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Perhaps more accurately, “…..to capture the premium assigned to those coins who MERIT the bean”?
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
yup
Follow me on MyCollect!
Now that this has happened again in such a short time, IMO the best option for CAC is to start charging a nominal fee, like $5 or $10, to collectors when their coins don't sticker.
Right now there's no real downside to just sending in everything, worthy or not.
Yep, as I mentioned in the post above. Even if this is not required or considered as a revenue source, it would serve as a deterrent for some percentage of their current submissions.
Tim
Unless things have changed, collectors aren’t charged for rejects at CAC.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think there is a balance that can be struck between taking care of collectors, and managing demand. My proposal is fairly simple, actually.
Collectors pay nothing for the first 100 failed coins they submit in a year. Thereafter, they pay $16/coin no matter what.
Plenty of leeway for aggressive collectors that acquire a lot of coins, but clearly separates out the collectors from the vest dealers.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Given the difficulty of meeting the demand for a service to highlight top tier coins, I would not be surprised if eventually PCGS and NGC spinoff their top graders into elite reviewer teams and have those teams award their own stickers as part of an additional cost, upgraded service.
"spinoff their top graders into elite reviewer teams and have those teams award their own stickers as part of an additional cost, upgraded service."
Charge $X for grading and an additional $Y to double check the grade we charged $X to assign? I suspect there'd be some unhappy customers.
CAC isn't double checking the grade, it's saying it's an "A" or "B" and not a "C" coin. From the consumers standpoint, it's one stop shopping. No more sending off a coin to two different grading services (three if you include Photo Seal).
“Some”? Well, I suppose that a multitude is a degree of “some”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Fair enough. So then, PCGS would have two levels of grading. I foresee issues.
Double checking your own work is probably a lot less objective and very different from someone else assessing it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That was my first thought. Next, you'd end up with coins that didn't have stickers, some of which were judged to be "C" coins and some that haven't been evaluated for "A, B or C" yet. Is that the kind of confusion you want to introduce to your product? I mean- CAC has been around for 15 years now and people are still confused about what they do or how it works.
2nd time for cac in less than a year.... Biz is good!
What is the significance of a one week turnaround? I seem to recall a couple instances long ago where the turnaround time exceeded one week.
I don't know and I'm not going to speculate. But when they made a similar announcement in March, they stated "Turnaround time for completion is unacceptable and not consistent with our mission of providing great service to our members."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
They don't want to grasp it.
You are also not getting the benefit of an independent 2nd opinion.
Except you don't have an independent 2nd opinion. I've got 2 NGC opinions and NGC would have every incentive to sticker almost everything.
You also don't get JAs eyes. You underestimate how much it is about HIS opinion. It's not about the sticker, it's about what the sticker MEANS.
Do you think JA is really that passionate about sub $200 coins? I don’t. I could believe that for more expensive advanced collector/investor coins, but not the widgets.
Who said that “JA is really that passionate about sub $200 coins”? Saying “I think he runs CAC out of a passion for the hobby.” isn’t remotely close to the same thing as what you implied was said.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How about for collectors, you get the first 10 failed coins at no charge for the review, and for every coin after that you get charged double for every coin that does not bean. Incentivize people to think about what they're sending in as opposed to treating it like lotto tickets.
with cac, I personally have no expectations on turn around times.. The coin is graded, It took me 3 to 4 months to get it back! So, no even a month would be fine..... In fact it would be a dream!
The norm is much less than a month, so your dream can be realized in most cases.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.