Ultra Rare Die Marriages For The Weekend

LanceNewmanOCC

The stuff that numismatic dreams are made of!

lilolme

LanceNewmanOCC

@lilolme said

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#&^#$*&#$

that marriage is one that has given me ulcers looking for it!

W O W

edited to add/ GOOD GRIEF, you even linked the actual images so i can enlarge it w/o having to go to the cert page or type it in the browser. tyvm!

Pnies20

Good lord that’s a lotta money

LanceNewmanOCC

@Pnies20 said:
Good lord that’s a lotta money

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whaddya think? C or broken O?

Pnies20

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@Pnies20 said:
Good lord that’s a lotta money

.
whaddya think? C or broken O?

C?

Barberian

1874-S WB4 (two known)

Barberian

Just curious, what are the criteria for an "ultra-rare" die marriage in terms of "R value" for this thread?

R8 = 1-3 known specimens
R7 = 4-12
R6 = 13-30
R5 = 31-75

LanceNewmanOCC

@Barberian said:
Just curious, what are the criteria for an "ultra-rare" die marriage in terms of "R value" for this thread?

R8 = 1-3 known specimens
R7 = 4-12
R6 = 13-30
R5 = 31-75

idk. perhaps marriages only seen common to market 2-3 times a year max or you can do the R scale. no more common than r7 would be nice but we don't get demerits for posting something outside those parameters.

LanceNewmanOCC

anyone spend an inordinate amount of time running in circles after one of these?

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/80826790

Nysoto

A couple of R-7's, Tompkins says 8-9 known for the 1795 T-6, and 11-12 known for the 1806 T-26. No stickers for these, can't be too picky for R-7's:

Herb_T

Is there a thought how these were made in such few quantity that leaves less than a handful today?

Crypto

R8 3 known 1875cc type 1/1 wide CC 1.2mm

Same Rev die shared with rare 73cc, 74cc @ 76cc. The wide CC have been know and sought after since at least the 40s but the 75cc wide was an unknown until very recently

alefzero

Lafayette DuVall-4E, one of only 4 known to exist and one of two that are straight-graded.

Omegaraptor

@Herb_T said:
Is there a thought how these were made in such few quantity that leaves less than a handful today?

In early US coinage… it was usually poorly made dies that shattered after striking only a few coins. This was particularly an issue with some of the early large cents… 1796 Draped Busts in particular. Out of the 27 Sheldon varieties of 1796 Draped Bust, most of them are R-5 or better, plus several very rare NCs. Why? Because the dies were often improperly annealed with internal cracks and defects and shattered to unusability within a couple dozen to a couple thousand strikes. The S-96 is a famous example, but crazy terminal states can be found on many die pairings.

LanceNewmanOCC

@Omegaraptor said:

@Herb_T said:
Is there a thought how these were made in such few quantity that leaves less than a handful today?

In early US coinage… it was usually poorly made dies that shattered after striking only a few coins. This was particularly an issue with some of the early large cents… 1796 Draped Busts in particular. Out of the 27 Sheldon varieties of 1796 Draped Bust, most of them are R-5 or better, plus several very rare NCs. Why? Because the dies were often improperly annealed with internal cracks and defects and shattered to unusability within a couple dozen to a couple thousand strikes. The S-96 is a famous example, but crazy terminal states can be found on many die pairings.

to add just a tad bit more for the sake of articulation:

so what happens from trying to get as many strikes as humanly possible out of these dies, they get mixed and matched (marriages), even after the year they were made for (head of xxxx, reverse of xxxx etc) so the combinations (marriages) can have very limited strikes between some of them and there are actually a large quantity of coins lost to history, shipwrecks, buried/dropped, melted etc so however scarce some of these marriages were, they are even more so now.

LanceNewmanOCC

@Nysoto said:
A couple of R-7's, Tompkins says 8-9 known for the 1795 T-6, and 11-12 known for the 1806 T-26. No stickers for these, can't be too picky for R-7's:

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amazing marriages. do you have a public registry or the like?

Nysoto

I have the 1806 on a half dollar by Overton die state registry set. I don't collect the capped series by die marriage, and have made several requests to PCGS to start a 1794-1807 registry by Overton numbers, which I own over 85% (raw, NGC, ANACS, and PCGS).

LanceNewmanOCC

@Nysoto said:
I have the 1806 on a half dollar by Overton die state registry set. I don't collect the capped series by die marriage, and have made several requests to PCGS to start a 1794-1807 registry by Overton numbers, which I own over 85% (raw, NGC, ANACS, and PCGS).

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after looking at the sets from that perspective, it does seem a little odd not to have an overton registry by marriage for that date range considering all the other registries that exist.

i think you can have an inventory set up similar to the registry format in anticipation and/or start adding to one or two of the current sets that may inspire to you go in a different direction?

Nysoto

I can list my coins in the PCGS inventory, and also include them in the broader 1794-1836 Overton registry. About 50 of my coins are other TPG's or raw, I was waiting until PCGS sets up the 1794-1807 Overton number registry because it will be around $5K in grading, crossover, and attribution fees. Also, many of my better PCGS graded coins are not attributed on the holder, so they would have to be submitted. I won't change direction, been doing this too long, but I have done some fun things like a half dollar denomination type set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/denomination-type-sets/half-dollar-type-set-1794-present/publishedset/270034

lkeigwin

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
anyone spend an inordinate amount of time running in circles after one of these?

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/80826790

Yes, the current owner. A very long time.
Lance.

lkeigwin

The rarest I own...just an R6.
Lance.

lilolme

@Nysoto
Interesting on the pcgs sets for the early halves. I checked them and they have for the Major sets:
1794 - 1839 Basic and with major varieties
1807 - 1839 Basic and with major varieties
1794 - 1807 Basic and with major varieties ***

Then for the specialty set they have Overton:
1794 - 1836 Overton and with die state (Note: Overton stops at 1836)
1807 - 1836 Overton and with die state

But they do Not break out the flowing and draped 1794 - 1807 Overton ***

They even break out the 1836 -1839 by something called the Dick Graham (you can guess I am not familiar with this)

LanceNewmanOCC

@lkeigwin said:
The rarest I own...just an R6.
Lance.

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when you post something like that, it is either pretty rare or a gift for someone else. lol

maybe some sort of rarity for condition census on some of your many bueats?

hmm. i know a bunch of the 27s. let me see. is it the square chin?

LanceNewmanOCC

@alefzero said:
Lafayette DuVall-4E, one of only 4 known to exist and one of two that are straight-graded.

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i meat to ask earlier (if i haven't before), what is the name of the book/publication tracking "marriages" for those? t.i.a.

btw, the vam registry and all it's features is looking nice these days.

alefzero

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@alefzero said:
Lafayette DuVall-4E, one of only 4 known to exist and one of two that are straight-graded.

.
i meat to ask earlier (if i haven't before), what is the name of the book/publication tracking "marriages" for those? t.i.a.

btw, the vam registry and all it's features is looking nice these days.

I do not think there is a book. I might throw together one, as there are only 5 die pairs and I have them all. Probably could write, print, and bind before I set up at the San Diego Coinarama after Independence Day and at least before I set up at the Chicago ANA WFoM.

I have examined thousands of these, mostly raw and have registered 774 certified so far. Of the 774, here is the breakdown:

1A: 32 (4.1%) - complete observation ~2%
1B: 415 (53.6%) - complete observation ~55%
2C: 258 (33.3%) - complete observation ~ 35%
3D: 65 (8.4%) - complete observation ~ 8%
4E: 4 (0.5%)

The 1C I am sure does not exist. I have seen a couple that would pass as that based on superficial PUPs. But when looked at in detail, they have all been 2C.

LanceNewmanOCC

@alefzero said:
I do not think there is a book. I might throw together one, as there are only 5 die pairs and I have them all. Probably could write, print, and bind before I set up at the San Diego Coinarama after Independence Day and at least before I set up at the Chicago ANA WFoM.

I have examined thousands of these, mostly raw and have registered 774 certified so far. Of the 774, here is the breakdown:

1A: 32 (4.1%) - complete observation ~2%
1B: 415 (53.6%) - complete observation ~55%
2C: 258 (33.3%) - complete observation ~ 35%
3D: 65 (8.4%) - complete observation ~ 8%
4E: 4 (0.5%)

The 1C I am sure does not exist. I have seen a couple that would pass as that based on superficial PUPs. But when looked at in detail, they have all been 2C.

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nice work.

Herb_T

One of my R6…1818 O-104b. RAW coin only right now….Planchet flaw on the reverse.

Herb_T

Another R6

LanceNewmanOCC

a couple reasons i really like the scarce marriages:

1. if you don't pick em, they put you to the test financially to see where your dedication is and how bad you want one.

2. as they are so scarce and usually not PQ, they also put you to the test to see how bad you want them and how much you are willing to compromise on quality for the sake of numismatic enjoyment and glory!

if one is so fortunate to find one they want that is PQ and financially viable, it is a good day in your numismatic land that day!

lkeigwin

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@lkeigwin said:
The rarest I own...just an R6.
Lance.

.
when you post something like that, it is either pretty rare or a gift for someone else. lol

maybe some sort of rarity for condition census on some of your many bueats?

hmm. i know a bunch of the 27s. let me see. is it the square chin?

Not sure what the square chin is. This is the O.148. Not a die state rarity or a condition census. A true die marriage rarity.

In the capped bust half world there are 450 die marriages. Five are R6, four R7, and one R8.
Lance.

LanceNewmanOCC

@lkeigwin said:
Not sure what the square chin is. This is the O.148. Not a die state rarity or a condition census. A true die marriage rarity.

In the capped bust half world there are 450 die marriages. Five are R6, four R7, and one R8.
Lance.

manlye1

Rarest I own 1803 10C JR-5 R7+ 2nd finest known of the 4, only one is straight graded

lilolme

@lkeigwin said:

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@lkeigwin said:
The rarest I own...just an R6.
Lance.

.
when you post something like that, it is either pretty rare or a gift for someone else. lol

maybe some sort of rarity for condition census on some of your many bueats?

hmm. i know a bunch of the 27s. let me see. is it the square chin?

Not sure what the square chin is. This is the O.148. Not a die state rarity or a condition census. A true die marriage rarity.

In the capped bust half world there are 450 die marriages. Five are R6, four R7, and one R8.
Lance.

@lkeigwin
So what source do you use to track the rarity, R?
I know it keeps changing as they discover more. Years ago when more active with bust halves the BHNC put out a paper update to the Overton book (it was available at a show as I recall) and I taped in the back of the book. It is now a brown piece of paper. I see a couple of websites with info but how updated the R is I don't know.

Barberian

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
a couple reasons i really like the scarce marriages:

1. if you don't pick em, they put you to the test financially to see where your dedication is and how bad you want one.

2. as they are so scarce and usually not PQ, they also put you to the test to see how bad you want them and how much you are willing to compromise on quality for the sake of numismatic enjoyment and glory!

if one is so fortunate to find one they want that is PQ and financially viable, it is a good day in your numismatic land that day!

Excellent post and very true. I've wrestled with both points as a new rare die marriage collector.

1). I just passed on an R7 for the moment because the coin was "AU harshly cleaned" (NGC) and too expensive. I'm not spending 4 figures for a coin I don't like unless it's a real bargain.

2). I've also wrestled with "how low will you go?" and have dug down to this depth ($37).

1840-O WB6 (R6)

But what a fun way to collect coins, though! It changes how you regard coins profoundly so that even the nasty coins on eBay become interesting again. Discovering an R8 among the first half dozen coins I attributed to die marriage in my collection is pretty exciting start.

I would add another observation, when you see a rare variety on eBay, don't assume you're the only one who will recognize it and then try to negotiate a better price. R7's go poof very quickly on eBay. I'm still kicking myself for not hitting BIN for $90 for the following coin. Based on my research on 74-S DMs, I know of 4 WB5s and two of them were on eBay at the same time.

1874-S WB5 (R7)

LanceNewmanOCC

@Barberian said:
I would add another observation, when you see a rare variety on eBay, don't assume you're the only one who will recognize it and then try to negotiate a better price. R7's go poof very quickly on eBay.

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this.

very painful and useful lesson.

i really don't recall seeing a mm position like that on a 74-s, a tough bird indeed.

the 40-o, reverse of 39, right?

Barberian

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@Barberian said:
I would add another observation, when you see a rare variety on eBay, don't assume you're the only one who will recognize it and then try to negotiate a better price. R7's go poof very quickly on eBay.

.
this.

very painful and useful lesson.

i really don't recall seeing a mm position like that on a 74-s, a tough bird indeed.

the 40-o, reverse of 39, right?

There are two die marriages (WB2 & WB5) that have the medium-small S. Both are scarce: WB2 is R5 and WB5 is currently R7 but is likely an R6.

Yes. An 1840-O reverse of 39 WB6 - it's recognizable by the mm position, the lack of recut dentils, and the lack of baseball-like die cracks on the reverse. Bill Bugert (2011, page 37) writes:

This die marriage is one of the rarest of the 1840-Os. At the time of this writing and after decades of searching, I am aware of less than ten examples of this die marriage. Others likely exist.

lkeigwin

@lilolme said:
So what source do you use to track the rarity, R?
I know it keeps changing as they discover more. Years ago when more active with bust halves the BHNC put out a paper update to the Overton book (it was available at a show as I recall) and I taped in the back of the book. It is now a brown piece of paper. I see a couple of websites with info but how updated the R is I don't know.

The BHNC released new rarity estimates for die marriages based on a 2020 study. Steve Herrman's AMBPR cites the new rarity levels, I believe.
Lance.

LanceNewmanOCC

@Barberian said:
Yes. An 1840-O reverse of 39 WB6 - it's recognizable by the mm position, the lack of recut dentils, and the lack of baseball-like die cracks on the reverse. Bill Bugert (2011, page 37) writes:

.
i thought i had this in my mind as the far/close legend letters/words? whereas the opposite is true for the 39?

set me straight if i am awry. the only thing that stings worse than not finding something scarce and highly desirable is MISSING it when the opportunity arrives!

lilolme

@lkeigwin said:

@lilolme said:
So what source do you use to track the rarity, R?
I know it keeps changing as they discover more. Years ago when more active with bust halves the BHNC put out a paper update to the Overton book (it was available at a show as I recall) and I taped in the back of the book. It is now a brown piece of paper. I see a couple of websites with info but how updated the R is I don't know.

The BHNC released new rarity estimates for die marriages based on a 2020 study. Steve Herrman's AMBPR cites the new rarity levels, I believe.
Lance.

Thanks. I was guessing BHNC. I am way below that level of involvement but like the review stuff.

Barberian

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@Barberian said:
Yes. An 1840-O reverse of 39 WB6 - it's recognizable by the mm position, the lack of recut dentils, and the lack of baseball-like die cracks on the reverse. Bill Bugert (2011, page 37) writes:

.
i thought i had this in my mind as the far/close legend letters/words? whereas the opposite is true for the 39?

set me straight if i am awry. the only thing that stings worse than not finding something scarce and highly desirable is MISSING it when the opportunity arrives!

For the 1840-(O), I just look at the wingtips of the eagle. Narrow wingtip = Reverse of '38; wide wingtip = Reverse of '39.

I'm not gonna get too distraught about it. There are something like 2000 other SLH varieties to collect.

KindaNewish

sometimes I am glad that what I collect is uncommon, it leaves more stuff for me with limited competition. It seems that most folks just keep a 20c piece out of curiosity, if at all. But for the last few years I have been working on completing and improving my die variety set of double dimes and this has been a surprisingly inexpensive set to work on.

There are a few R-6 coins that I am missing from my set (1876-CC, R-6) and the 1875-S proof or SP 1875-S (probably a dozen exist) that I will likely never acquire.
I have grabbed 3 specimens of the 1875-CC BF-1 off of ebay and a dealers sites over the last few years. All my efforts to identify these oddballs was to earn bragging rights and drop the '75-CC BF-1 from R-7 to R-6, now that there are 13 known examples.

The 1876-CC and the branch mint proof will likely remain out of my budget for the near future, I still look diligently at all the auctions for a 1875-CC BF-5. Only two are known so far.

Its been about 5 years since the 1875-P BF-3 was identified, still trying to find another. Its the only R-8 I will probably ever own.

http://doubledimes.com/DoubleDimeBook-Addendum3-February2018.pdf