Affordable Condition Census Gold
Gazes
Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
Ive seen posts where collectors state condition census gold is only for the rich. I saw an 1849 liberty quarter eagle offered by Legend that was pcgs MS 62+ CAC. The PCGS census has 2 in 64 and 6 in 63 (and just the one in 62+). I think the 6 in 63 have some dupications. Further, CAC has only approved 3 1849s in unc (this 62+ and two in 63). A look at the registry showed no collection with an 1849 better than 62 (Hansen has a ms 62 non cac compared to the 62+ cac).
The coin was listed for sale for $6750 (the coin has sold). A very fair price in my opinion. So here is a gold coin, mid 19th cent, pcgs and cac and in the tail end of the condition census for an amount far less than 5 figures.
6
Comments
The vast majority of collectors will never spend that on a single coin. I would be willing to bet that half of all collectors have never spent that much TOTAL on their collections.
Half the population would define anyone who spends $7000 on a coin as "rich".
Median household savings is $4500 which means half the households have less than $4500 in savings.
I've been collecting for 60 years. The most I've ever spent on a coin is just under $2000 and there are only two or three others that cost over $1000. $6750 is so far away I can't even see it from here.
There is another point of view and it does depend on your definition of collector. David L. Ganz wrote a book back in 2010 titled "Rare Coin Investing: An Affordable Way to Build Your Portfolio." Obviously, this book was geared to want a be investors.
Ganz, an attorney combined his love for coins with his legal practice. He claimed 92% of coin collectors are males. He went on to say the average collector has a net worth of $800,000 of which roughly half is the home and half the investment portfolio. Of that investment portfolio roughly 10% or $39,100 is a coin collection.
Those were his numbers.
Once in a while I calculate the percentage of my net worth tied up in coins. Usually, such introspection is followed by a bunch of selling.
As for the OPs observations, it’s possible to acquire some genuine rarities at comparatively affordable prices. Usually it’s in less popular corners of the market.
Philly QEs don’t get a lot of love compared to the branch mints unfortunately.
In this case, the 1849 only has about 120 or so extant in all grades. But it has a high-ish (compared to branch mints) extant population in MS (15-20).
Still, super hard to find nice, and typically undervalued because - no mint mark.
I still don’t understand the lack of love for Philly QEs!
What percentage of "collectors" never pay more than face value? I think a fairly significant fraction largely only existed to complete their state quarter set.
I absolutely agree. There is alot more love for philly QEs now than say 4 years ago. There is alot more interest in lib quarter eagles now than several years ago. With only a total of 3 stickered for this date in unc, this is the type of coin that should be on the radar of classic gold collectors. Other similar rarities out there that pop up but have to be looking and act quickly.
The word affordable is a term that has a complicated meaning. I struggle with the use of affordable housing. It means something different for everyone. As pointed out, the $6750 is not affordable for most of us. As someone that track Condition Census Gold for research purpose and not personal purchase, I agree with Gazes, the available of this coin at this price is really amazing. I think that was the purpose of the OP.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
There are those as well as USMint collectors, Littleton type collectors, Whitman album collectors, etc.
PCGS MS63 CAC
"He went on to say the average collector has a net worth of $800,000 of which roughly half is the home and half the investment portfolio. Of that investment portfolio roughly 10% or $39,100 is a coin collection."
$6750 is nearly 20% of $39,100. How many collectors have that large of a percentage of their collection's value tied up in one coin?
The bulk of my high end coins were acquired many years ago when I was working. Now, I buy occasionally, and not high dollar coins. I have other interests that command most of my casual, disposable income. Coins have been a focused interest of mine since I was about 8 or 9 years old.... I have many other interests and some are expensive.
So I enjoy my coins (lots of them), but only add occasionally now. Looking at a high priced coin, I immediately think "Wow... that money would buy me xxxxx... Yep, I will get xxxxx." Cheers, RickO
I'd also be interested in how he acquired his data. There are so many casual collectors out there who aren't members of coin clubs or the ANA, who just dabble.
Just last week, I ran into a woman (rare!) at a local coin store. She has a collection that fits in 4 or 5 three ring binders. The most expensive coin in there is worth about $5. It is mostly world-wide mix that you can buy for 10 to 25 cents per coin from junk bins in retail coin stores. That's what she likes. She is VERY passionate about the coins, but she just likes what 99% of this forum would consider un-collectable junk.
She is not a member of the local coin clubs (I asked) or any organization. She doesn't even own a Krause world catalog yet, she's looking to find a cheap used one. While she was there, she asked if I could identify a few Asian coins. I did. She took copious notes and was very excited.
She is a collector. But I doubt she shows up on anyone's radar. I meet a lot of people like this at "country auctions" and the local B&M's. $50 for them is a huge purchase. They mostly spend $25 or less when there. Over time, they might accumulate a few thousand dollars worth of stuff.
I love those people, by the way. They love coins. They just don't have a lot of money or just don't want to put a lot of money into their hobby.
Oh, to own just one really, really nice coin....
Keep in mind when i use the term "affordable" it should be taken into context with the subject----in this case "19th century condition census gold".
There are lots of really, really nice coins that can be had for a tiny fraction of that $6750. Unless, of course, one"s definition of 'really, really nice" requires that the coin be expensive.
I've got twelve 4" binders like that along with three or four 2x2 boxes of coins that I haven't gotten around to getting binders for yet. The upper value of each is probably around $20 but there aren't many of them worth that much. I started buying the coins when I was a kid and didn't have a lot of money to spend. I don't focus on this part of my collection much now but every so often, I'll dig through junk boxes to see if there's anything interesting.
If you’re a collector with an eye for investment or at least cost recovery, then I would argue you’re better served concentrating your collection in fewer coins of high quality (vs spray and pray). While you’ll have less stuff and less diversification, you’ll spend less on transaction costs and (on average) benefit from greater price appreciation. It may require more discipline as you’re constrained to fewer acquisitions, but that’s a practice I’d like to bring / develop in my collecting along with within other parts of my life.
Imagine how easy it would be to have a collection that consists of a single coin...
That wouldn't have worked well if you bought MS67/68 classic commems in 1989. While your general comments are accurate, there is inherent risk in lack of diversification.
I have a good friend who has collected for a long time and would love to be able to complete his wheaty collection. He has them all except for the 1909-S VDB and the 1922. Even F12s would run $900 and $775 respectively. For him, those are the really, really nice coins and a boyhood dream.
Can't get much less diverse than this...
"Imagine how easy it would be to have a collection that consists of a single coin..."
I've thought about it many times; but, I would miss the thrill of the chase.
True. But I don't believe in investing in coins, so I don't care about the risk of the "investment"
Neither do I. I know my coins have value but I do not account for any when making financial plans. Anything I can get out of my coins is just gravy.
Agreed. Preserves the fun.
I can't imagine how you can enjoy collecting at all if you're worrying about what you can sell a coin for before you even buy it.
Well, it varies. In the last few years, prices have been generally increasing. That makes it easy to convince yourself that the trend will continue. If Morgans correct back to $25, the people that paid $35 are going to be having less fun.
In the theme of the thread, here is a condition census quarter eagle. For what it is, this coin is "affordable". Much like the 1849 Philly quarter eagle just sold by Legend, there are about 125 known with only 2 graded higher at PCGS.
Things that can't go on forever, don't. Eventually, the music stops and not everybody gets a chair. If one's plans assume you won't be one of those people, I guess it's all good though.
Thanks for bringing it back to the theme of the thread
No one has suggested that except for you
I guess I don't see a problem in considering "financial plans" when building a collection. I actually think its prudent!
Speak for yourself. I know a lot of collectors (including myself) who have a blast collecting coins and can multitask and consider the financial implications. I have a lot of fun with coins (not as much fun on coin forums
You are free to collect how you want. I would never tell someone there way of collecting is wrong. I do collect coins that cost $6750. I do not "worry" about them (although I do worry a bit about my stocks in my 401k).
Hey, if your collection was worth 50% of what you paid and it is still fun, more power to you. I'm just not sure I've ever heard anyone say that they really enjoyed owning Enron.
Not going back and forth with you but you shouldnt be buying coins that later becone worth 50% of what you paid. The problem with a discussion with you is you throw in something like the 50% out of nowhere and derail any intelligent discussuion. In fact in decades of collecting coins i dont think ive ever had to sell a coin for 50% of its purchase value. If that is happening to you i can understand why you dont like to spend money on coins. Further, if that is happening to you a bit more study and education is warranted (of course unless that takes out the fun for you).
I said that having to worry about future value sucks the fun out of it. You said to "speak for yourself". My counterpoint was that if you don't care if your coin value goes down, I guess it would still be fun.
You have now all but proved my original point. It is easy to have fun when the coin values are going up, even if you don't like the coins. If you care about value, it is much harder to enjoy the coins when the value drops.
For the record, I never said that I ever had a coin drop 50% in value. But your response indicates that you would find such an event to not be fun. "If that is happening to you, I can understand why you don't like to spend money on coins. "
The fact is, I don't mind spending money on coins. But if I buy a coin for $1000, I don't do it with any concern over what it will be worth later. I consider it a "hobby expense" not an "investment ". So, in fact, if it is now worth only $500, I don't care. I don't worry about it. And it doesn't stop me from spending $1000 on another coin that I want.
YMMV
Great thread topic, and many insightful posts that I've enjoyed reading.
My relevant experience goes back to this past Winter FUN show. Pierre Fricke had an 1817 AU53 15 stars large cent in his case. This is a coin I've coveted for years, solely because of an old story by QDB talking about admiring one in MS with another major dealer, commenting on how it's the only one they've ever seen, yet all the attention was going to far more common coins like 89CC Morgans, etc. Anyway, only 4-5 are known in MS, with maybe 35 or so in AU.
So we get down to price, and he comes down to an "affordable" $1600....so I'm debating in my mind gee do I really want to spend that much on kind of an off the wall coin.....Pierre then says "you should buy it, I'm sure there isn't another one on the floor"......and I reply "I bet your right, but I'm also probably the only one here looking for one".
A tough decision when you consider a 13 stars for much less money could meet your needs or whether you should hold out for a 15 stars with a CAC. If it actually was one of the three 15 stars that had a CAC it was a really hard decision.
I think we can appreciate that not everybody has the luxury of your position. At the same time, a few coin purchases that turn out to be bad shouldn't prevent one from expecting to make better coin purchases in the future.
@DisneyFan said:
A tough decision when you consider a 13 stars for much less money could meet your needs or whether you should hold out for a 15 stars with a CAC. If it actually was one of the three 15 stars that had a CAC it was a really hard decision.
Well, it wasn't CAC'd, don't know if it had been tried or not....but after roaming the bourse and not finding much else interesting, I went back, he gave me a generous trade in allowance on a couple of early date dupes I had, and I bought the coin. As any (ir)rational collector would have done LOL. Later in the day I was getting an opinion on another coin at Greg Hannigan's table, then I pulled out the 15 stars large cent. He said, wow, that's a tough coin, well done!....as Greg has handled many outstanding large cents over the years, that was high praise indeed.
Each coin's value is determined by a combination of supply and demand. Obviously if a CC coin, there is limited supply (less than 10). However, in this case there is also limited demand as the Liberty head quarter eagle series has a relatively small number of collectors seeking to complete the series by date and mintmark, because:
Therefor I am not surprised a CC level coin from this series could be had for less than $10K. There are many dates to choose a type coin from, and scant demand from date/mint mark collectors to drive up prices.
I use to hear this alot about liberty quarter eagles---lower prices due to smaller collector base. The last few years has seen an increase in collectors for liberty quarter eagles. Many record prices have been recorded. Doug Winter has written about the increased interest in quarter eagles he has seen. In the case of the coin in the OP, there are a total of 3 of the date that are unc and cac approved. Many old gold collectors prefer cac. Doesnt take many collectors to increase demand (and price) when the census is so low.
Many collectors who want condition census gold coins will get priced out of the larger coins and i expect interest in the lib quarter eagles to continiue to increase especially the philly mint coins which are very rare but more affordable than their branch mint counterparts.
Everyone should have the same luxury... only spend what you can afford to lose. Costs over $1000 to play Pebble Beach and all you bring home are the memories.
For about the same price as the 1849 Liberty head quarter eagle you mentioned in the OP, one could buy an MS65RED 1909-S VDB, of which there are over 7,000 certified by PCGS alone in that grade and color designation.
Even if the number of collectors seeking CC level 1849 quarter eagles were to triple, it would still be a miniscule number, and in my opinion, not a very good investment.
If one wanted to collect quarter eagles that have consistently held their value, I would recommend:
1796 no stars The blue chip of type coins
Keys to the indian head quarter eagles- avidly collected for decades
rare branch mint early quarter eagles- who wouldn't want a C or D branch mint classic head gold coin?
Everybody does have that luxury, but that's not always good enough. What some people want is a way to justify to themselves spending more than they can afford to lose. "It's an investment!"
I know. But that is why I don't own any $10k coins. I have $10k in my checking account. I'm not comfortable losing $10k.
It's a choice...
When I stretch for a coin, i ask myself if it’s the coolest coin I could buy at that price point. $6,750 would be a huge stretch for me - an MS Philly QE just doesn’t meet that that criteria for me as a collector. Maybe if I had an investor mindset and a thesis around condition census / registry sets becoming more popular I would take a closer look.
If the OP coin was from the D or C or even O mint it would be listed at 3-4X higher easily.
Because the series is so huge some collectors focus on a single branch mint.
Nobody focuses on the Philly mint, but maybe someone will now