Is there a way to get the artificial toners taken down
goldrealmoney79
Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
Is there a way for us to get artificial toners taken down like the counterfeits?
I see sold auctions like these and my blood gets boiling
What can we do to get them down before more ppl get ripped off? Economy is hurting and ppl hard earned money getting taken away from them and also ppl getting burned drives them away from numismatics.
What are possible solutions?
0
Comments
Not much you can do. If people don't know what they are doing, they shouldn't be buying raw coins. The grading services do a good job weeding out AT coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Artificially toned coins are not like counterfeits, so no- probably not.
You are just asking for trouble if you get involved in the AT/NT controversy. Stay away.
eBay needs to go back to charging for listing auctions (and perhaps give back on the selling end in fee reduction).
It would weed out many coins along with the ones that have no place being listed at all.
peacockcoins
I dislike seeing all the artificially toned coins too. I hate seeing some great coins ruined.
Pocket Change Inspector
So those coins should just be thrown in the trash?
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
just another way to part people with their cash
2003-present
https://www.omnicoin.com/security/users/login
I looked at the listing linked in the first post. Here's the description:
1890 Morgan Silver Dollar, Beautiful Tone, NO RESERVE.
As seen in photos, as is
The auction started at 99 cents (Canadian $, that would be 76 cents US).
Just sayin'.
You can do precisely NOTHING.
Not the trash at all. Just would prefer to see them left original.
Pocket Change Inspector
That's all well and good but if the coins belong to somebody else, they're free to exercise their preferences, too. Aren't they?
How can you know for sure that a coin is AT?
The coin pictured is apparently AT, that is reasonably sure, but I would have to be CERTAIN to make that serious an accusation.
Looks like it’s also listed in a Foreign Country other than the United States so International Law might have jurisdiction. Do we have a International Lawyer here who can give the board free legal advise?
it is a personal choice what people collect... and nobody else has to like it.
As long as it is not illegal there is nothing you can do !
And, you will have a seriously difficult time proofing most AT coins.
Someone said that the TPGs are doing a good job sorting AT-NT coins....
well, I have some NT-coins called "questionable color" and hence the coins are now "marked as "defect" while it is 100% not.
but, as another poster says..... you will open a can of worms....
I'm not saying they can't and I'm not the one who said pull them down. I'm just saying I'm not a fan of artificially toned coins. To each their own.
Pocket Change Inspector
Fair enough.
Too broad an area for restriction. Many coins thought to be AT are in holders, just as many coins thought to be NT are returned as AT. Until someone developes a device that tells how the colors occurred and with what intent, the question will remain and should not be restricted. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
No legal advice is needed. As long as the seller is in compliance with eBay policy and isn't doing anything illegal, there’s nothing to be done. Even assuming that the coin was doctored, we don’t know who did it and/or whether the seller has knowledge of it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So, you think charging for listing will weed out a coin like the OP listed one that sold for $500+??? Not a chance. What it will weed out is legitimate $25 and under coins
Everyone likes artificially toned coins that are "market acceptable". That is the problem. Put a coin in an album ad the album artificially tones the coin. But the market embraces those. There's no easy, clear place to put the line.
Many market participants consider album toning to be natural, not artificial.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jmlanzaf
I like naturally toned coins. When I say I don't like artificially toned coins I'm not referencing toning from being in albums. I'm talking about those like you see in the in the You Tube DIY videos where they put the coin in acid and connect alligator clips to a battery then touch the coin.
Pocket Change Inspector
And that is the problem. If I have to put it in a potato to happen, ut ain't natural. Buy a cheap, high sulfur album and you will get beautiful naturally artificial market acceptable toning. Lol
But, again, there is no clear place to put the line. You found one you consider way over the line. Show me two coins, one just barely on the acceptable side and one just barely unacceptable. THAT is the problem.
Coin albums are made for coin storage. Potato’s aren’t. I have no problem with album toning being labeled natural and potato toning, unnatural/artificial.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
P.S. those same people probably consider sime album toning to be unnatural. Buy high sulfur cardboard folder, but a coin in it and leave it in the Arizona sun. You will quickly get "album toning" that many will call "artificial".
If it takes the introduction of sulfur from cardboard to make it happen, it is really a stretch to call it "natural". Most toning is artificially induced by canvas or leather or paper. It all books down to whether it is MA or not. The NT/AT divide is impossible to define.
Now, let's talk about MS70 on copper coins...
I just stated my own personal preference that's all. I'm not the OP who said take them down.
Pocket Change Inspector
So if I make a high sulfur coin album to introduce toning rapidly, you consider my science experiment "natural "? Or is it just when some idiot designs a non archival album that it is natural? And, if so, is the expert who designs an archival album ARTIFICIALLY preventing the NATURAL toning from occurring?
Just for the sake of argument- suppose the results (potato/album) are the same. Is one still artificial and one natural? What if you can't tell them apart?
Understood. No offense intended.
The fault lies with the artificial value attributed to toning in the first place. In a perfect world a coin would stand on its own without regard to its toning.
That said many like "pretty coins" so they are willing to pay a premium for "color."
Taken to its logical conclusion the colorized coins offered by the off mints are really not all that different.
Good point regarding the OP's auction.
What it will weed out are coins like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/394070132892?hash=item5bc069089c:g:KIEAAOSw6p9iPQJQ
And this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/394070140157?hash=item5bc06924fd:g:FhEAAOSweFdiYHiz
peacockcoins
Set a price range when you search. You won't see that coin anymore.
Hard to measure intent.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Who gets to decide which coins are AT or not?
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
There is nothing wrong with a AT, NT, or blast white coin. It’s coin collecting. Buy what you like. If you like a toner that is market acceptable buy one already straight graded if you are worried about resale value. Buying any raw coin is a crapshoot. The more experienced you are the better your successes will be.
At some point where do we stop trying to save people from them self? Asking for a friend🤓
Martin
I think so, even if you can’t tell them apart. As far as I know, there’s no definition of NT/AT that’s free of logic issues such as that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Most collectors don't care if a coin is NT or AT as long as it's MA or market acceptable. Currently the grading services are trusted by most collectors to make this determination.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I disagree with both of your assertions. What data do you have to back up your claims that "most" collectors do not care, and that "most" collectors trust the TPG's.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I was speaking in generalities based on my own observations. Prove me wrong by posting your own data.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Perhaps to some extent but what it will REALLY weed out is the plethora of crazy high money junk coin listings where they're just fishing for suckers and clogging up listings, pushing good stuff down in the listings.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
So what your saying is that while your post sounds like you are stating a fact you are really only posting your opinion, these are two very different things. Perhaps in the future you should clarify when you are posting a fact vs your opinion.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Guys! Guys! Guys!
This whole NT, AT, MA or damage thing. You know these threads never turn out well!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
A potato is from nature so its natural
Carry on
All energy is from the sun. Turn on those ovens.
Get a solar oven and an old Wayte Raimond album and I guarantee your "natural" rainbow colors in a day or two.
Far be it from me to defend @PerryHall, but it did seem like an opinion to me.
I would also tend to agree with @PerryHall in that there is no clear definition of "natural" or "artificial" and it is virtually impossible to tell for many coins how they arrived at their color. So, as a result, people do tend to default to "market acceptable" toning.
I know for a fact that there are many artificially toned coins in TPGS holders. How do I know that? Because I know people who have toned them to cover up an old dipping.
I also know for a fact that there are many "naturally" toned coins that got body bagged. How do I know that? I saw the coins in the cardboard folder before they were removed and submitted. They were ASE's that had been placed in the holders upon release and sold by a large marketing firm. Low quality cardboard led to fairly rapid (approx 5 years) toning around the edges.
That is the problem with the whole AT/NT argument. The coin you have that you think is "natural" might have been toned "artificially" (and professionally) while the coin you think is "artificial" might just have been stored improperly and, therefore, toned "naturally".
It's an argument without any hope of resolution.
Simple... stop buying them...
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