Opinion on this Barber Ultra Cam
JW77
Posts: 564 ✭✭✭✭✭
Graded NGC 67 Ultra Cam; I would appreciate opinions on how this would cross from our grading scholars. Would the 67 and/or DCAM hold? Best guesses please.
2
Comments
forgot to mention this is a proof, although i assume that was obvious.
thanks
It looks really nice. Obviously, proofs are characteristically hard to grade from photos as very few hairlines actually show up but I think you should be fine. These later proofs often get a little bit more leniency than modern proofs as well so as long as there is not more than a few hairlines in the field you should be golden.
Also, it does seem to have the contrast for DCAM.
As always, is there any reason you want it in PCGS plastic rather than keep it in the NGC holder? If it’s for a registry set, then it makes sense to cross.
Coin Photographer.
I'm working on a matched set of PCGS PF67 CAM 1897 Proofs (excluding gold which is out of my range); I guess you could say registry, but not that I'm trying to one up Mr. Hansen, not happening
From the photos, I wonder if the neck and inside (close to body) feathers might make it a CAM instead of a DCAM. I don’t know, though. It would be a DCAM in my mind if I owned it.
Awesome coin.
Is that a lint mark in front of the nose to the star [right side]
If so, it may not go 67.
DCAM, I would agree.
BHNC #203
I appreciate the comments, if it crossed 67 CAM that would be just fine, a drop to 66 DCAM would hurt just a little, and 66 CAM would be painful. I should mention no CAC, and I have to assume a premium coin that does not have a bean was previously submitted and did not pass. That is not always the case, but my previous experiences proves that out for me.
Proof's have to be 1 of the hardest coins to evaluate from a picture. That said, looks sweet in the pics!
you have safety nets (besides the risks of shipping) that can keep the grade in the current holder. the simple of it here is cross at grade or get it sent back.
those with a lot of time and experience could crack stuff like this and brace themselves for a few submissions but that is not the recommended path for the rest of us.
all things considered, if you track the shows where pcgs will be at and the show submission level isn't too expensive for what you are trying to accomplish, i'd at least consider that route as oppose to shipping.
Some good feedback thus far.
Here is my two cents.
It is hard to evaluate from two single photos, but I would say the reverse is PCGS dcam but the obverse looks PCGS cameo to me.
You can specify what you are willing to accept in a crossover as you describe above. I have had better luck with this strategy than cracking it out and taking my chances.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
That is a good suggestion, I plan on attending e the June Long Beach show. Really, the biggest risk with this option is owning a NGC coin that doesn't fit into my PCGS matched grade /matched holder goal.
good feedback from everyone, thank you. Now just need to negotiate a fair and reasonable price. I'll keep you posted.
As a reference, I crossed this coin
And it came back 68 Cameo
I wanted it in PCGS plastic
Well, she might not of crossed 69, but sure is a beauty
Lovely coin.
I do not know how it looks in hand; and I do not know what criteria PCGS requires a coin meet to warrant a DCAM designation.
That said, from the photo of the coin (particularly the obverse) and from the photo of the coin posted by Floridafacelifter I doubt that PCGS would give this coin a DCAM designation.
The obverse looks marginal for a Deep Cameo. And there’s no way to judge the technical quality of the Proof surfaces with the precision being sought, based on images.
If you want or need one in a PCGS holder, buy it in a PCGS holder. Lastly, I’m surprised that you’re of the opinion that “..if it crossed 67 CAM that would be just fine,..”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That seems to be the prevailing view, i accept that view and even agree.
Hold that thought, stay tuned:)
Lastly, I’m surprised that you’re of the opinion that “..if it crossed 67 CAM that would be just fine,..”
As you know NGC coins typically sell at discounts to their PCGS counterparts. Buying a NGC coin at the right price can give you the room to absorb a downgrade from DCAM to CAM and still not get hurt, or maybe the financial pain is minor. Furthermore, we all agree the coin would not earn a bean at DCAM, but maybe if rated CAM, who knows! Finally, if you love the coin, a small financial hit in the short run doesn't matter. Hopefully that clarifies my comment.
If memory serves me correctly, the higher the grade, the less likely it is to cross at the same grade. Will it cross at the same grade? Maybe. Would I bet on it based on the photos here? Definitely not.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
If it were mine, I would keep it as is.... However, if it is really desirable to cross to PCGS (for the stated collection purpose), then go the protective 'cross at grade' route.... Cheers, RickO
Based on one of his posts, it sounds as if the OP doesn't own the coin at this time:
"good feedback from everyone, thank you. Now just need to negotiate a fair and reasonable price. I'll keep you posted."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think MFeld and ricko speak wisely: unless you are confident of a same grade/designation cross, keep it as is and if you want a PCGS 67DC than buy one already encapsulated by them at that grade. Using the current PCGS price guide as a reference, from 67DC to 67Cam is a $10k loss, from 67DC to 66DC is even worse!! The fact that you've come here seeking advice leads me to believe you likely think the coin won't cross, that it is over-graded/designated vs. PCGS standards. That is probably a judgement that can't be made from online pictures, no matter how good they are.
Whatever you do, I would suggest you don't crack that case.
It’s folly to try to grade proof coins from photos, but my thought is PCGS PF66 CAM shot 67 CAM. There is significant weakness (for DCAM) in frost along the neck on the obverse. It is what some collectors might call CAM+.
Also not to sound like a plastic snob (I’ll buy any plastic or raw), but if a coin like that is in NGC plastic (particularly if it lacks a CAC sticker), there is often a good reason. That reason is the coin is already maxed out in value in its current plastic.
It's a nice coin. I'd say based on the photos, it's on the borderline between Cam and DCAM. They could easily grade it 66+ Cam, which would hurt. Just for kicks, here is a PF-66 DCAM.
I appreciate all the input and as M Feld stated I do not own the coin as of now. I came across it as I was researching current dealer prices for late 1800s proof barbers. It looks like a nice coin to me(one I would be proud to own) and agree it would probably cross as CAM. This coin was actually second choice if I can’t acquire choice 1. Im being a little secretive, but will fully update everyone in due time.
Thanks again
The main question in my mind...how much are you going to have to pay for it? Is it close enough to the price if it downgrades that you wouldn't take a big hit? If it's fully priced like a PCGS coin I would try to work out a deal and have the seller submit it for a crossover with the contingency you will buy it if it crosses.
If there’s going to be a proposal to buy the coin in the event that it crosses, a considerably higher price should likely be part of that proposal.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
We are thinking alike. I was going to negotiate a firm price consistent with PCGS 66 CAM if the dealer would cross, and then preset additional cash upon results for step ups to 66+ cam, 67 cam , 67 DCam., etc. but dealer may have no interest in this or as M Feld mentioned, just buy the coin in a PCGS holder.
IMHO not if they are already asking PCGS money!
If you want to go the dealer negotiation route, it may be best to agree to pay the grading fees and then have set prices for each possible grade that are agreed upon before the coin goes off.
So you pay grading fees and offer a set amount for each grade (66CAM, 66DCAM, 67CAM, and 67DCAM) or whatever grades you and the dealer think are possible. It seems this is what you were saying but I doubt the dealer will want to swallow the grading cost. Good luck!
Coin Photographer.
Hopefully, I misunderstood your above post. Because I can’t imagine an owner of an NGC PR67 UCAM subjecting himself to the possibility of selling the coin at “a firm price consistent with PCGS 66 CAM”. That sounds totally unrealistic.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You did. I was talking about a cross at grade if the coin is priced like a PCGS coin. Of course some compensation should be added for grading fees and trouble.
And several thousand for difference in value…The last few NGC examples went for a bit more than 1/3 of the PCGS value (67 DCAM/UCAM).
The coin has likely been tried several times as the PCGS versus NGC spread is large for these. The odds of it crossing at grade/designation? I’d wager a single digit percentage number.
I wasn’t talking misunderstanding your post. My comment was in reference to the reply from @JW77, which I quoted.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the coin hasn’t already been tried for crossover, it’s likely because its current and previous owners thought the chances of success were extremely remote.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Correct if the firm price is the PCGS price guide, which is significantly low based on recent auction results. There would have to be a negotiated price that both parties are comfortable with. Maybe/probably not doable, but this is all hypothetical because the dealer's asking price hasn't been disclosed nor have we come to conclusion on market. maybe the gap might be much closer than one would think.
So my post kind of took a different direction from my initial inquiry on opinions on what it would grade with a cross. It sort of morphed into the pitfalls of crossing and negotiations with the dealer. The comments have been thoughtful and much appreciated. I actually have enjoyed the exchange of ideas. As i mentioned above, this coin is plan B if I couldn't acquire the coin in a PCGS holder. I agree with everyone who has opined that just buying the coin in a PCGS holder is the best way to proceed, although i might add as long as not paid with stupid high money.
The funny thing is, someone probably tried hard to get that coin in its current 67 UCAM holder.
That coin didn't start life as a 67 UCAM, it was probably a PCGS or NGC 66 CAM previously. And now we're talking about crossing it and getting it back into a holder that someone likely took a few tries to get it out of...
This. It's a great looking piece but that is an end of the road grade for it IMO.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
you guys have me laughing and convinced to kill plan B. I do think its a very nice coin, but I do need it in a PCGS holder. So we will let it live its life in its current home.
Without knowing the asking price?
$11k
It’s nearly a slam dunk that the asking price will be much too high, considering that the OP wants the coin in a PCGS holder and the downside that goes with that. The owner of the coin isn’t going to discount it to a price that corresponds to a lower grade and/or designation, just because someone disagrees with NGC’s assessment.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As a Barber proof guy, I'll just make the comment, and I've been watching these coins carefully over the last 3 years.....There are literally ZERO great coins for sale in the marketplace right now. I am talking exquisite PCGS PF 66+, 67+ Cam and Dcam CAC coins with color....They simply don't exist.
I would give up on that avenue also!
At that price this is a no brainer. The last two NGC PF67 UCAM coins to sell at auction fetched $5640 at Heritage. If it was a super strong coin a premium (the amount is debatable) might be justified but this is a mediocre coin for the designation/grade at best.
This thread is an example of how human behavior (arising from needs, wants and desires) can be successfully assessed/predicted to such a degree that a successful, self sustaining and profitable business model can be created.
Having a robust debate about:
Grade (1-70);
Designation (CAM, UCAM, DCAM, + and/or*);
Which TPG should grade a coin;
Value; and
Upgrade potential/downgrade risk/grading costs
as they apply to this particular coin causes me to wonder how many times has this coin been submitted for grading; how many TPGs have graded the coin; what the grades assigned to this coin by TPGs have been; and what the final "coffin coin" grade/designation for this coin will be.
If this coin (or any other coin) has been submitted for grading 10 times to two separate TPGs to date; and has received 5 separate combinations of grades/designations from each of the two TPGs, leading to differing market valuations for the same coin (based upon the holders and the numbers, letter and characters on the holders), my mind creates an image of a TPG Grading Slot Machine in a "coin grading casino".
Each time a specific coin is placed into the slot machine the player pulls the mechanical arm lever (or presses the digital touch screen button) in the hopes of having "777" magically appear on the winner's line.
One cannot win if one does not play, so many people choose to play.
Thou shalt NOT post non-cameo TruViews of DCAM coins. 😆
To OP
I agree with the NGC grade. It is a nice coin and just fine where it is. I am not a crossover hobbyist. Been there done that.
However if you attempt to cross it I recommend putting minimum grade on form. Me - would not take less than the grade on the holder, downgrade wb horrible loss. Your call.
How does the NGC MV compare with CPG?