I disagree there is any manipulation through paper substitutes, not where it differs from manipulation of any other commodity. I disagree because I don't believe anyone other than metal bugs and coin collectors see it as a money substitute as it evident with gold. In India, they do or may care but these people don't have other options. No one else gives a hoot about the price.
bullion bankers/traders are notorious for temporarily driving the price of silver down (only to see true market forces drive it back up) for massive profits on the futures exchanges. The Department of Justice has documented this numerous times with numerous banks and their traders with criminal charges and massive fines. . . fines that are obviously less than the profits or the traders would not continue to control the price.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The doomsayers always say there is "manipulation" year after year, decade after decade. You'd think at some point the light bulb would go off and reality would set in. To each their own, crazy world. RGDS!
@blitzdude said:
The doomsayers always say there is "manipulation" year after year, decade after decade. You'd think at some point the light bulb would go off and reality would set in. To each their own, crazy world. RGDS!
Unlike you the Department of Justice deals with facts. If they are successfully in judicial settlements for PM price manipulation, then there is PM price manipulation. As with your buddy, you can't change reality. Calling reality a conspiracy theory is only an attempt to distort reality.
I formally nominate you and your buddy as co-queens of the forum "Ministry of Truth." LOL
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
A symbiotic relationship of sorts. They both benefit from each other. Gov.com allows them to continue in business with no jail time; the traders accept the occasional smack down fines and allow a trader or two to be fired... who are then likely hired elsewhere.
Unethical and unscrupulous... but seems to be common for our times.
I disagree there is any manipulation through paper substitutes, not where it differs from manipulation of any other commodity. I disagree because I don't believe anyone other than metal bugs and coin collectors see it as a money substitute as it evident with gold. In India, they do or may care but these people don't have other options. No one else gives a hoot about the price.
Gold's price since 1971 also contradicts this belief. Gold is a lot more important than silver, other than as an industrial commodity. No one can deny it, yet its price has increased a lot more. Those who are supposedly suppressing the price cannot keep anyone from buying the physical metal. This is a belief in a form of price control. If this actually existed and it's really as underpriced as it's advocates claim, there should not be now or in the past (since the 80's when I first heard this claim at minimum) a single ounce to be bought. That nothing of the sort has happened (except during temporary shortages of the fabricated blanks) better illustrates that the metal advocate is irrelevant as a buyer of last resort.
This completely ignores the brainwashing most people are under and have been under their entire lives due to media and other fake realities being portrayed. Programming 101. If you have time, study how manipulated our thoughts and ideas truly are. It was extremely obvious during the last 2 years of the plandemic...
How does it work with Gold and Silver? Shoot the price down during HYPERINFLATION. The worst inflation of our lives is currently happening and commodities are being suppressed. It causes panic, FEAR, and running from the truth. The truth is right in front of you. PHYSICAL SILVER AND GOLD.
PleaseWakeUp
But if normies do not see the light physical will continue to be in the dregs; I mean most sub-30 year old people don't even carry cash
A symbiotic relationship of sorts. They both benefit from each other.
Yes, and don't forget the "revolving door".
I disagree there is any manipulation through paper substitutes, not where it differs from manipulation of any other commodity. I disagree because I don't believe anyone other than metal bugs and coin collectors see it as a money substitute as it evident with gold. In India, they do or may care but these people don't have other options. No one else gives a hoot about the price.
Paying fines for being found guilty of manipulation has been part of JPM's business model for years now. That's all been documented. Precious metals, especially gold are held as private assets in many countries but most significantly - China has opened up gold as a savings vehicle for the masses, India accumulates both gold & silver, Russia is in the process of successfully linking payments for oil to gold via the ruble, and the IMF has changed the status of gold to a "Tier 1 Asset", i.e., that it has no offsetting liabilities tied to any other financial vehicle.
I don't ever recall a spread of 3% to 4% for silver, not even close. That's been the spread on 1oz gold every time I have looked, except during COVID. CNI has a spread of 4.5% when I did my last search for silver on their website.
You may be right about that, but I'm not 100% sure. I was thinking of previous times when the price for 90% was quoted below melt but I don't recall what spreads went along with those circumstances. Typically, in a slow market when silver simply isn't moving or being bought, the market premiums tighten and I still seem to remember that spreads get more competitive as well. If my memory is accurate about that, it also means that today's spreads and premiums indicate a very manipulated market and that it is a buying opportunity, regardless of the premiums and spreads. These signs, along with anecdotal reports from some major players in silver point towards a very active market. Just my opinion.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
i still think its funny some of you are completely against everything the government is doing but rush out and pay tax on your bullion sales even though inflation stole the actual gain away before you could even book it
Unfortunately it depends how you sold your bullion. If payment was made on eBay or PayPal, there is a 1099 in your future. If sold to a local store, then your ID and sales info are conveniently store for the tax auditor to review (which is quite easy - you just ask for a export from their accounting software and sort by name then sub-total and see you is worth the effort of pursuing). Yes you can sell for cash - but if you stacked any volume, how are you going to spend the money?
Sounds like you have some terrible LCS's. There is a zero percent chance I'd ever give a LCS my home address. Having that list would be more valuable than robbing the damn store and I'd never trust a LCS owner to protect my data. You can literally hit hundreds of soft targets one-by-one with a list like that. There is one joke of a LCS in Connecticut I went to once that asked for my license and I laughed my way out of the store after they said it was the law. With online purchases, I use a PO box in a different town than where I live, to also protect my info.
I would say the consumers are the market. If I don’t want to pay $35 for an eagle I don’t. But I’m just one person. If there are others out there that are willing to pay that then they will. The retailers can ask whatever they want but that doesn’t mean they will sell them. The consumer has to be there to set the acceptable going rate.
i still think its funny some of you are completely against everything the government is doing but rush out and pay tax on your bullion sales even though inflation stole the actual gain away before you could even book it
Unfortunately it depends how you sold your bullion. If payment was made on eBay or PayPal, there is a 1099 in your future. If sold to a local store, then your ID and sales info are conveniently store for the tax auditor to review (which is quite easy - you just ask for a export from their accounting software and sort by name then sub-total and see you is worth the effort of pursuing). Yes you can sell for cash - but if you stacked any volume, how are you going to spend the money?
Sounds like you have some terrible LCS's. There is a zero percent chance I'd ever give a LCS my home address. Having that list would be more valuable than robbing the damn store and I'd never trust a LCS owner to protect my data. You can literally hit hundreds of soft targets one-by-one with a list like that. There is one joke of a LCS in Connecticut I went to once that asked for my license and I laughed my way out of the store after they said it was the law. With online purchases, I use a PO box in a different town than where I live, to also protect my info.
Or the LCS is complying with State/Local/Federal laws...
@jmski52 said:
today's spreads and premiums indicate a very manipulated market
One could interpret your comments as saying it is the physical market that is being manipulated as the spreads are out of norm.
How can the physical market be manipulated? Mr. Market sets the price… right?
Who is Mr Market?
Who has more control over price, consumers, producers, retailers, wholesalers?
What can be more easily manipulated, a big market or a small market?
you forgot the When? Where? & Why?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@blitzdude said:
The doomsayers always say there is "manipulation" year after year, decade after decade. You'd think at some point the light bulb would go off and reality would set in. To each their own, crazy world. RGDS!
Unlike you the Department of Justice deals with facts. If they are successfully in judicial settlements for PM price manipulation, then there is PM price manipulation. As with your buddy, you can't change reality. Calling reality a conspiracy theory is only an attempt to distort reality.
I formally nominate you and your buddy as co-queens of the forum "Ministry of Truth." LOL
None of this proves the price is what you or others who agree with you think it should be. No one can quantify this claim. It's one thing to believe the price has been suppressed by a few cents or a few dollars. It's another thing entirely to claim silver should be worth a (large to huge) multiple of the current spot price.
How much do you think silver should be worth right now?
If silver has been so successfully suppressed, why hasn't it succeeded with gold? Relative to other things, gold isn't historically cheap. It's expensive or at most "fairly" valued.
The car I own (2016 Nissan Versa) I bought used in late 2016 for about 10oz of gold (equivalent) from a dealer. That's less than the price of a Model-T Ford prior to 1933 after mass production was in place. My car is also much better than any Model-T. It varies by car model and date of comparison but generally, gold has not been underpriced versus cars. It isn't now.
Gold isn't cheap versus US residential housing either and housing is in a massive bubble financed by very loose credit standards and artificially cheap money. Median priced US home costs about 200oz now. That's not out of line with the past and less than in the 60's, to my recollection.
I agree with you that gold is expensive versus silver, but the primary purpose of money isn't to acquire other forms of money. The ultimate purpose of all forms of money is to buy the goods and services we want and need.
Lastly, it's ultimately irrelevant whether anyone who disagrees with you believes this theory. Are you getting a discount that I am not? No, I can buy it at the same price you do.
@blitzdude said:
The doomsayers always say there is "manipulation" year after year, decade after decade. You'd think at some point the light bulb would go off and reality would set in. To each their own, crazy world. RGDS!
Unlike you the Department of Justice deals with facts. If they are successfully in judicial settlements for PM price manipulation, then there is PM price manipulation. As with your buddy, you can't change reality. Calling reality a conspiracy theory is only an attempt to distort reality.
I formally nominate you and your buddy as co-queens of the forum "Ministry of Truth." LOL
None of this proves the price is what you or others who agree with you think it should be. No one can quantify this claim.
It proves what it was intended to prove - that there is price manipulation in the metals futures market. This matters because the futures market is used to set the base price of all physical PMs.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@jmski52 said: A symbiotic relationship of sorts. They both benefit from each other.
Yes, and don't forget the "revolving door".
I disagree there is any manipulation through paper substitutes, not where it differs from manipulation of any other commodity. I disagree because I don't believe anyone other than metal bugs and coin collectors see it as a money substitute as it evident with gold. In India, they do or may care but these people don't have other options. No one else gives a hoot about the price.
Paying fines for being found guilty of manipulation has been part of JPM's business model for years now. That's all been documented. Precious metals, especially gold are held as private assets in many countries but most significantly - China has opened up gold as a savings vehicle for the masses, India accumulates both gold & silver, Russia is in the process of successfully linking payments for oil to gold via the ruble, and the IMF has changed the status of gold to a "Tier 1 Asset", i.e., that it has no offsetting liabilities tied to any other financial vehicle.
None of this comes even close to supporting your inference. I'm not singling you out but every time I read this type of claim, the inference is that the spot price should be a (noticeable) multiple to what it actually is and has been. You are claiming that silver price controls succeed when it fails with everything else.
What you are describing in Russia or China is another form of "paper". The end-users don't actually own and hold the physical metal.
The best example against the supposed success of any silver manipulation claim is the CHF. In 2011, I owned it when it hit $1.40. Soon after, the Swiss National Bank (SNB) implemented a form of QE to peg the CHF-Euro rate at 1.20 inflating their balance sheet to gigantic proportions.
Do remember the outcome?
They capitulated and abandoned the peg. No, they didn't have to do it, but they did. There was nothing stopping them from "printing" an unlimited amount of CHF to enforce the peg yet they capitulated anyway.
This is what happens in the real world. If people were robots or mindless clones, then they might behave as those who agree with you infer but they are not.
The point is, if the SNB couldn't maintain the CHF peg when they control the supply of CHF, what reason is there to believe anyone can suppress the price of silver when anyone can buy it whenever they want?
@blitzdude said:
The doomsayers always say there is "manipulation" year after year, decade after decade. You'd think at some point the light bulb would go off and reality would set in. To each their own, crazy world. RGDS!
Unlike you the Department of Justice deals with facts. If they are successfully in judicial settlements for PM price manipulation, then there is PM price manipulation. As with your buddy, you can't change reality. Calling reality a conspiracy theory is only an attempt to distort reality.
I formally nominate you and your buddy as co-queens of the forum "Ministry of Truth." LOL
None of this proves the price is what you or others who agree with you think it should be. No one can quantify this claim.
It proves what it was intended to prove - that there is price manipulation in the metals futures market. This matters because the futures market is used to set the base price of all physical PMs.
It doesn't prove it's financially material. If silver "should be" worth a few cents to a few dollars more, only those who agree with you care. No one else cares.
The point is, if the SNB couldn't maintain the CHF peg when they control the supply of CHF, what reason is there to believe anyone can suppress the price of silver when anyone can buy it whenever they want?
because the price of silver that anyone can buy whenever they want to is pegged to a manipulated spot price. Control the spot price you control the physical market price (at least until the physical market catches on and pays higher premiums.)
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
If spot price does not set the base price (plus premium) for physical then why does the price of physical rise and fall with sport price? As stated numerous times a manipulated spot price affects the price of physical and will continue to do so until buyers of physical take their focus off of sport price. Rising premiums tell us that they are beginning to do so.
So much to teach you, try paying attention.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
One could interpret your comments as saying it is the physical market that is being manipulated as the spreads are out of norm.
That would be a misinterpretation. The spreads in the physical market are simply a refusal by potential sellers to sell at the Comex paper price.
If silver has been so successfully suppressed, why hasn't it succeeded with gold? Relative to other things, gold isn't historically cheap. It's expensive or at most "fairly" valued.
What can be more easily manipulated, a big market or a small market?
This is why the silver market is more manipulated than the gold market.
None of this comes even close to supporting your inference. I'm not singling you out but every time I read this type of claim, the inference is that the spot price should be a (noticeable) multiple to what it actually is and has been.
JPM has been found guilty and paid fines for market manipulation in silver. What part of this doesn't support my assertion. It's not a claim. It's fact.
You are claiming that silver price controls succeed when it fails with everything else.
I did not say anything about price controls.
What you are describing in Russia or China is another form of "paper". The end-users don't actually own and hold the physical metal.
I don't know about Russians holding physical gold, but China endorses it and the Shanghi gold exchange has been active in retail for at least 5 years.
.If silver "should be" worth a few cents to a few dollars more, only those who agree with you care. No one else cares.
The ones who care are the ones who lose money in a position when JPM manipulates the price a few cents or dollars in order to do just that. Throw in High Frequency Trading and it's almost like taking candy from a baby.
Unless you hold physical silver.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
"The scorching evidence produced in the case raises the question, why is the U.S. Justice Department sitting on its hands in this matter. Unlike civil cases brought by private plaintiffs, the Justice Department has the power to wire tap and issue subpoenas. Almost two years ago, Bloomberg News reported that the Justice Department “is investigating whether the world’s biggest banks manipulated prices of precious metals such as silver and gold as it pushes to wrap up probes into currency-rate rigging, according to people with knowledge of the matter.” The report said that 10 banks, including two of those named in this case, Barclays and Deutsche Bank, were being probed."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@OPA said:
Derryb's post is ancient news from 2016......so what has evolved?
post is available historical data backing up all claims of silver manipulation.
What has evolved? Obviously DOJ's interest in further prosecution. Maybe the spoofers are now using burner phones? LOL
Nothing has changed. Low spot in the face of great physical demand (demonstrated by high premiums) tells us all we need to know about what continues to take place in the futures spot market. Those who denied (and were proven wrong) about silver spot price manipulation will continue to stick to their empty guns. It's human nature to double down when wrong.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@OPA said:
Derryb's post is ancient news from 2016......so what has evolved?
post is available historical data backing up all claims of silver manipulation.
What has evolved? Obviously DOJ's interest in further prosecution. Maybe the spoofers are now using burner phones? LOL
Nothing has changed. Low spot in the face of great physical demand (demonstrated by high premiums) tells us all we need to know about what continues to take place in the futures spot market. Those who denied (and were proven wrong) about silver spot price manipulation will continue to stick to their empty guns. It's human nature to double down when wrong.
The "alleged" manipulation that has been ongoing since the beginning of time, is so miniscule compared to the volume of transactions in the PM markets. Any-one who is currently paying the high premiums for common bullion bars, rounds or bullion coins, will regret it at some point in the future. This is not the first time, that high premiums dominated the bullion markets, and this to will pass.
The "alleged" manipulation that has been ongoing since the beginning of time, is so miniscule compared to the volume of transactions in the PM markets.
The greater the spread (premium) between paper silver and real silver the less "miniscule" the proven manipulation becomes. Premiums reflect the reality of pricing real silver. Higher premiums reflect more belief in fake spot prices.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
the silver futures market will always exist. It's impact on retail prices will not. In the last year alone premiums have greatly reduced the impact of spot prices.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
the silver futures market will always exist. It's impact on retail prices will not. In the last year alone premiums have greatly reduced the impact of spot prices.
the silver futures market will always exist. It's impact on retail prices will not. In the last year alone premiums have greatly reduced the impact of spot prices.
Premiums scare me
price controls should scare you more.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
the silver futures market will always exist. It's impact on retail prices will not. In the last year alone premiums have greatly reduced the impact of spot prices.
Premiums scare me
price controls should scare you more.
Never happen!
The controls are already in place, the socialist progressive administration will see to it that it (silver & PMs) stay the way they are; you have no chance.
They'll be no great world wide melt down of currency. The USD the Petro World reserved currency is well in charge right now and so much in demand by all world currency holders.
Debts and shorts must be paid in dollars all silver and PMs positions will get liquidated first to cover margins.
Every trader has margins.
The fact that paper trades out number the physical trades 353 to 1 tells me that you'll never get out from under the price control that paper trades exercise. Look at it this way; there isn't enough silver in the world to cover all the paper trades out there and that alone keeps silver under valued.
It's possible you'll see a physical demand run up to $45 - $50 just like in 2011, but for only an unusual reason i.e. some demand payment etc. So, then you sell all you have. Do it for the money YES ! for the cash you're gonna need.
The end is not near. i.e. it doesn't matter what you bring to a farmer for wheat or corn or food et al. Gold Silver cash; He'll tell you to eat it
the silver futures market will always exist. It's impact on retail prices will not. In the last year alone premiums have greatly reduced the impact of spot prices.
Premiums scare me
Try to sell some gutter at the advertised "premiums". You will find ZERO takers....... Unless of course you are the owner of WSS.com. lol.
@Soldi said:
The end is not near. i.e. it doesn't matter what you bring to a farmer for wheat or corn or food et al. Gold Silver cash; He'll tell you to eat it
It's a shame the message board doesn't allow you to agree, like, and LOL all at the same post. Sleep Well. RGDS!!!!
@Soldi said:
The end is not near. i.e. it doesn't matter what you bring to a farmer for wheat or corn or food et al. Gold Silver cash; He'll tell you to eat it
It's a shame the message board doesn't allow you to agree, like, and LOL all at the same post. Sleep Well. RGDS!!!!
Yeah, I wouldn't have wasted my time, I would have just busted out laughing. Do it for the money 💰 Do it for the money 💰 just try to make money., you'll need it.
Silver Prices - Historical Annual Data
Year Average Closing Price Year Low
2011 $35.12 $26.16
2010 $20.19 $15.14
2009 $14.67 $10.35
They'll be no great world wide melt down of currency. The USD the Petro World reserved currency is well in charge right now and so much in demand by all world currency holders.
inflation is melting your dollars. That candle was lit years ago with money printing and run away government spending (sovereign debt). Cannot be undone. International demand for dollars is melting your dollars as new international petro payment methods are introduced to bypass the dollar and major foreign holders of US debt rid themselves of treasury bond holdings. Sanctions showed the world that holding US dollars can easily become a serious risk. Sanction blowback is pumping even more bullets into a dying dollar both at home and on the world stage. A trip to the grocery store or the gas station should tell you everything you need to know about the dollar's weakness. Comparing it to other worse off currencies (the dollar index) and declaring it king does not delete the fact that it is simply the prettiest pig in an ugly pig contest.
Debts and shorts must be paid in dollars all silver and PMs positions will get liquidated first to cover margins.
The current, panicked dash to cash in the face of falling asset prices is nothing new. Equities and paper are getting eliminated first. We saw it in 2009 and PMs were among the first to recover and prosper when common sense returned to rattled investor reaction. There are not enough dollars to pay all the private debt no matter what gets liquidated for cash. Loan defaults will explode just as it did in 2009.
The fact that paper trades out number the physical trades 353 to 1 tells me that you'll never get out from under the price control that paper trades exercise. Look at it this way; there isn't enough silver in the world to cover all the paper trades out there and that alone keeps silver under valued.
Growing premiums confirm paper traders are slowly losing their ability to keep silver under valued. Physical silver prices are telling us the day will come when silver buyers no long follow spot price nor use it to determine what they will pay for actual silver.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Try to sell some gutter at the advertised "premiums". You will find ZERO takers....... Unless of course you are the owner of WSS.com. lol.
LOL. Recently sold two 10 oz bars for 36.86 an oz. And just to avoid being called a liar by you once again, here's a screenshot.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Try to sell some gutter at the advertised "premiums". You will find ZERO takers....... Unless of course you are the owner of WSS.com. lol.
LOL. Recently sold two 10 oz bars for 36.86 an oz. And just to avoid being called a liar by you once again, here's a screenshot.
Well that's an eBay screenshot which you ended up getting nowhere near the advertised premiums after all the fees and hipping was subtracted. If gutter math helps you sleep well at night then I guess so be it. Sleep tight buttercup. I live in the real world. RGDS!
Try to sell some gutter at the advertised "premiums". You will find ZERO takers....... Unless of course you are the owner of WSS.com. lol.
LOL. Recently sold two 10 oz bars for 36.86 an oz. And just to avoid being called a liar by you once again, here's a screenshot.
Well that's an eBay screenshot which you ended up getting nowhere near the advertised premiums after all the fees and hipping was subtracted. If gutter math helps you sleep well at night then I guess so be it. Sleep tight buttercup. I live in the real world. RGDS!
Like I said, buyers paid the high premium that you said they aren't paying. Gutter math cares about premiums, real math cares about net gain:
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The world is not coming to an end , neither is the world economic system.
As long as there is a world there will be an economic system. There is a very good chance that the one you know now is in the process of being replaced. Awareness and preparedness will prove beneficial.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The end is not near. i.e. it doesn't matter what you bring to a farmer for wheat or corn or food et al. Gold Silver cash; He'll tell you to eat it
The farmers I know would be more willing to accept precious metals than paper cash. That is true currently, and would likely be the case in a future crisis.
Physical precious metal prices are determined by investor faith in their currency but more importantly by their faith in those that control their currency. Currently it is believed that the FED is in control and they will be able to bring inflation back to their desired 2%. This is why PMs have not responded to inflation. It is still believed by most investors that high inflation is temporary.
Once investors realize that their central bank is responsible for high inflation (QE, money printing, zero rates, etc.) and that inflation is not going to normalize any time soon, they will turn to gold and silver for dollar protection. Those doing so now while prices are reasonably low will provide themselves the best dollar protection.
While spot prices remain under CONTROL, premiums are telling us that investors are wising up to the failures of the FED. As more wisdom is gained, look for premiums to increase. When the FED curtain is finally pulled fully open look for physical prices to skyrocket. Our current economic woes are the result of a single FED miscalculation - too much money in the system. Now they are scrambling trying to remove it. They can't.
"Central bankers are panicking because their inability to predict the future has been revealed. Just this week former Fed Chair Janet Yellen was forced on live TV to admit that she had been "wrong then, about the path that inflation would take,”. Referring to comments made last year when she said inflation posed only “a small risk”. In case you had forgotten, Yellen along with central bankers and policymakers, patronised markets and savers for much of last year by telling us that spikes in inflation were just ‘transitory’ and would soon settle down. They said supply chains just needed to sort themselves out. Also, the demand and supply would soon find some kind of equilibrium."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Comments
bullion bankers/traders are notorious for temporarily driving the price of silver down (only to see true market forces drive it back up) for massive profits on the futures exchanges. The Department of Justice has documented this numerous times with numerous banks and their traders with criminal charges and massive fines. . . fines that are obviously less than the profits or the traders would not continue to control the price.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The doomsayers always say there is "manipulation" year after year, decade after decade. You'd think at some point the light bulb would go off and reality would set in. To each their own, crazy world. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Unlike you the Department of Justice deals with facts. If they are successfully in judicial settlements for PM price manipulation, then there is PM price manipulation. As with your buddy, you can't change reality. Calling reality a conspiracy theory is only an attempt to distort reality.
I formally nominate you and your buddy as co-queens of the forum "Ministry of Truth." LOL
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Stack on, perhaps one day the justice department will put an end to all this price manipulation. GD LCK!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
They don't want to end it. The fines/settlements make it a continuous cash cow for gov.com and a cash cow for the traders.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The fact that conspiracy theories are proven wrong is just further proof they are correct
A symbiotic relationship of sorts. They both benefit from each other. Gov.com allows them to continue in business with no jail time; the traders accept the occasional smack down fines and allow a trader or two to be fired... who are then likely hired elsewhere.
Unethical and unscrupulous... but seems to be common for our times.
But if normies do not see the light physical will continue to be in the dregs; I mean most sub-30 year old people don't even carry cash
A symbiotic relationship of sorts. They both benefit from each other.
Yes, and don't forget the "revolving door".
I disagree there is any manipulation through paper substitutes, not where it differs from manipulation of any other commodity. I disagree because I don't believe anyone other than metal bugs and coin collectors see it as a money substitute as it evident with gold. In India, they do or may care but these people don't have other options. No one else gives a hoot about the price.
Paying fines for being found guilty of manipulation has been part of JPM's business model for years now. That's all been documented. Precious metals, especially gold are held as private assets in many countries but most significantly - China has opened up gold as a savings vehicle for the masses, India accumulates both gold & silver, Russia is in the process of successfully linking payments for oil to gold via the ruble, and the IMF has changed the status of gold to a "Tier 1 Asset", i.e., that it has no offsetting liabilities tied to any other financial vehicle.
I don't ever recall a spread of 3% to 4% for silver, not even close. That's been the spread on 1oz gold every time I have looked, except during COVID. CNI has a spread of 4.5% when I did my last search for silver on their website.
You may be right about that, but I'm not 100% sure. I was thinking of previous times when the price for 90% was quoted below melt but I don't recall what spreads went along with those circumstances. Typically, in a slow market when silver simply isn't moving or being bought, the market premiums tighten and I still seem to remember that spreads get more competitive as well. If my memory is accurate about that, it also means that today's spreads and premiums indicate a very manipulated market and that it is a buying opportunity, regardless of the premiums and spreads. These signs, along with anecdotal reports from some major players in silver point towards a very active market. Just my opinion.
I knew it would happen.
Sounds like you have some terrible LCS's. There is a zero percent chance I'd ever give a LCS my home address. Having that list would be more valuable than robbing the damn store and I'd never trust a LCS owner to protect my data. You can literally hit hundreds of soft targets one-by-one with a list like that. There is one joke of a LCS in Connecticut I went to once that asked for my license and I laughed my way out of the store after they said it was the law. With online purchases, I use a PO box in a different town than where I live, to also protect my info.
One could interpret your comments as saying it is the physical market that is being manipulated as the spreads are out of norm.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
How can the physical market be manipulated? Mr. Market sets the price… right?
Who is Mr Market?
Who has more control over price, consumers, producers, retailers, wholesalers?
What can be more easily manipulated, a big market or a small market?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I would say the consumers are the market. If I don’t want to pay $35 for an eagle I don’t. But I’m just one person. If there are others out there that are willing to pay that then they will. The retailers can ask whatever they want but that doesn’t mean they will sell them. The consumer has to be there to set the acceptable going rate.
Or the LCS is complying with State/Local/Federal laws...
So how much is selling at those prices. If $100,000 in trades take place at 35 but $100,000,000 take place at 23, then which price is manipulated?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Holding back or dragging down ? What was the question ?
you forgot the When? Where? & Why?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
None of this proves the price is what you or others who agree with you think it should be. No one can quantify this claim. It's one thing to believe the price has been suppressed by a few cents or a few dollars. It's another thing entirely to claim silver should be worth a (large to huge) multiple of the current spot price.
How much do you think silver should be worth right now?
If silver has been so successfully suppressed, why hasn't it succeeded with gold? Relative to other things, gold isn't historically cheap. It's expensive or at most "fairly" valued.
The car I own (2016 Nissan Versa) I bought used in late 2016 for about 10oz of gold (equivalent) from a dealer. That's less than the price of a Model-T Ford prior to 1933 after mass production was in place. My car is also much better than any Model-T. It varies by car model and date of comparison but generally, gold has not been underpriced versus cars. It isn't now.
Gold isn't cheap versus US residential housing either and housing is in a massive bubble financed by very loose credit standards and artificially cheap money. Median priced US home costs about 200oz now. That's not out of line with the past and less than in the 60's, to my recollection.
I agree with you that gold is expensive versus silver, but the primary purpose of money isn't to acquire other forms of money. The ultimate purpose of all forms of money is to buy the goods and services we want and need.
Lastly, it's ultimately irrelevant whether anyone who disagrees with you believes this theory. Are you getting a discount that I am not? No, I can buy it at the same price you do.
It proves what it was intended to prove - that there is price manipulation in the metals futures market. This matters because the futures market is used to set the base price of all physical PMs.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
None of this comes even close to supporting your inference. I'm not singling you out but every time I read this type of claim, the inference is that the spot price should be a (noticeable) multiple to what it actually is and has been. You are claiming that silver price controls succeed when it fails with everything else.
What you are describing in Russia or China is another form of "paper". The end-users don't actually own and hold the physical metal.
The best example against the supposed success of any silver manipulation claim is the CHF. In 2011, I owned it when it hit $1.40. Soon after, the Swiss National Bank (SNB) implemented a form of QE to peg the CHF-Euro rate at 1.20 inflating their balance sheet to gigantic proportions.
Do remember the outcome?
They capitulated and abandoned the peg. No, they didn't have to do it, but they did. There was nothing stopping them from "printing" an unlimited amount of CHF to enforce the peg yet they capitulated anyway.
This is what happens in the real world. If people were robots or mindless clones, then they might behave as those who agree with you infer but they are not.
The point is, if the SNB couldn't maintain the CHF peg when they control the supply of CHF, what reason is there to believe anyone can suppress the price of silver when anyone can buy it whenever they want?
It doesn't prove it's financially material. If silver "should be" worth a few cents to a few dollars more, only those who agree with you care. No one else cares.
It's financially irrelevant.
In theory, the smaller market.
But it's different when the purported manipulating parties don't control the supply and can't keep anyone from buying it.
Manipulation to support the price (as a buyer of last resort) is the polar opposite of price suppression.
The example I gave with the SNB and the CHF is the best one I know to refute this claim.
If a group of countries > @derryb said:
And how.
What you got for answers?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
because the price of silver that anyone can buy whenever they want to is pegged to a manipulated spot price. Control the spot price you control the physical market price (at least until the physical market catches on and pays higher premiums.)
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Control the spot price you control the physical market price
Lol. I guess thats why 90% is spot $8.
Yeah....really controlling the physical price. Do you actually read your own words?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
LOL. You need to read my words.
If spot price does not set the base price (plus premium) for physical then why does the price of physical rise and fall with sport price? As stated numerous times a manipulated spot price affects the price of physical and will continue to do so until buyers of physical take their focus off of sport price. Rising premiums tell us that they are beginning to do so.
So much to teach you, try paying attention.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Where do I begin? How about this:
One could interpret your comments as saying it is the physical market that is being manipulated as the spreads are out of norm.
That would be a misinterpretation. The spreads in the physical market are simply a refusal by potential sellers to sell at the Comex paper price.
If silver has been so successfully suppressed, why hasn't it succeeded with gold? Relative to other things, gold isn't historically cheap. It's expensive or at most "fairly" valued.
What can be more easily manipulated, a big market or a small market?
This is why the silver market is more manipulated than the gold market.
None of this comes even close to supporting your inference. I'm not singling you out but every time I read this type of claim, the inference is that the spot price should be a (noticeable) multiple to what it actually is and has been.
JPM has been found guilty and paid fines for market manipulation in silver. What part of this doesn't support my assertion. It's not a claim. It's fact.
You are claiming that silver price controls succeed when it fails with everything else.
I did not say anything about price controls.
What you are describing in Russia or China is another form of "paper". The end-users don't actually own and hold the physical metal.
I don't know about Russians holding physical gold, but China endorses it and the Shanghi gold exchange has been active in retail for at least 5 years.
.If silver "should be" worth a few cents to a few dollars more, only those who agree with you care. No one else cares.
The ones who care are the ones who lose money in a position when JPM manipulates the price a few cents or dollars in order to do just that. Throw in High Frequency Trading and it's almost like taking candy from a baby.
Unless you hold physical silver.
I knew it would happen.
The where?, when? and why? are obvious. How it's done is a little more complicated but evident:
2007-2013 actual trader to trader communications used in civil class action law suit. Click on any magnifying glass for the transcript for that date.
Bombshell Dropped in Federal Court: Proof of a Silver Market “Mafia” Among Big Banks:
"The scorching evidence produced in the case raises the question, why is the U.S. Justice Department sitting on its hands in this matter. Unlike civil cases brought by private plaintiffs, the Justice Department has the power to wire tap and issue subpoenas. Almost two years ago, Bloomberg News reported that the Justice Department “is investigating whether the world’s biggest banks manipulated prices of precious metals such as silver and gold as it pushes to wrap up probes into currency-rate rigging, according to people with knowledge of the matter.” The report said that 10 banks, including two of those named in this case, Barclays and Deutsche Bank, were being probed."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Derryb's post is ancient news from 2016......so what has evolved?
post is available historical data backing up all claims of silver manipulation.
What has evolved? Obviously DOJ's interest in further prosecution. Maybe the spoofers are now using burner phones? LOL
Nothing has changed. Low spot in the face of great physical demand (demonstrated by high premiums) tells us all we need to know about what continues to take place in the futures spot market. Those who denied (and were proven wrong) about silver spot price manipulation will continue to stick to their empty guns. It's human nature to double down when wrong.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The "alleged" manipulation that has been ongoing since the beginning of time, is so miniscule compared to the volume of transactions in the PM markets. Any-one who is currently paying the high premiums for common bullion bars, rounds or bullion coins, will regret it at some point in the future. This is not the first time, that high premiums dominated the bullion markets, and this to will pass.
Interesting history
https://www.reddit.com/r/Wallstreetsilver/comments/mnq3yp/a_deep_dive_on_historically_high_premiums/
The greater the spread (premium) between paper silver and real silver the less "miniscule" the proven manipulation becomes. Premiums reflect the reality of pricing real silver. Higher premiums reflect more belief in fake spot prices.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Paper Trades will never stop.
Raise the price of it and you will find it.
the silver futures market will always exist. It's impact on retail prices will not. In the last year alone premiums have greatly reduced the impact of spot prices.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Premiums scare me
price controls should scare you more.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Never happen!
The controls are already in place, the socialist progressive administration will see to it that it (silver & PMs) stay the way they are; you have no chance.
They'll be no great world wide melt down of currency. The USD the Petro World reserved currency is well in charge right now and so much in demand by all world currency holders.
Debts and shorts must be paid in dollars all silver and PMs positions will get liquidated first to cover margins.
Every trader has margins.
The fact that paper trades out number the physical trades 353 to 1 tells me that you'll never get out from under the price control that paper trades exercise. Look at it this way; there isn't enough silver in the world to cover all the paper trades out there and that alone keeps silver under valued.
It's possible you'll see a physical demand run up to $45 - $50 just like in 2011, but for only an unusual reason i.e. some demand payment etc. So, then you sell all you have. Do it for the money YES ! for the cash you're gonna need.
The end is not near. i.e. it doesn't matter what you bring to a farmer for wheat or corn or food et al. Gold Silver cash; He'll tell you to eat it
Try to sell some gutter at the advertised "premiums". You will find ZERO takers....... Unless of course you are the owner of WSS.com. lol.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
It's a shame the message board doesn't allow you to agree, like, and LOL all at the same post. Sleep Well. RGDS!!!!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Yeah, I wouldn't have wasted my time, I would have just busted out laughing. Do it for the money 💰 Do it for the money 💰 just try to make money., you'll need it.
Silver Prices - Historical Annual Data
Year Average Closing Price Year Low
2011 $35.12 $26.16
2010 $20.19 $15.14
2009 $14.67 $10.35
See the high low prices
Do it for the money 💰
Need more facts? I spoke the truth
@Soldi said:
inflation is melting your dollars. That candle was lit years ago with money printing and run away government spending (sovereign debt). Cannot be undone. International demand for dollars is melting your dollars as new international petro payment methods are introduced to bypass the dollar and major foreign holders of US debt rid themselves of treasury bond holdings. Sanctions showed the world that holding US dollars can easily become a serious risk. Sanction blowback is pumping even more bullets into a dying dollar both at home and on the world stage. A trip to the grocery store or the gas station should tell you everything you need to know about the dollar's weakness. Comparing it to other worse off currencies (the dollar index) and declaring it king does not delete the fact that it is simply the prettiest pig in an ugly pig contest.
The current, panicked dash to cash in the face of falling asset prices is nothing new. Equities and paper are getting eliminated first. We saw it in 2009 and PMs were among the first to recover and prosper when common sense returned to rattled investor reaction. There are not enough dollars to pay all the private debt no matter what gets liquidated for cash. Loan defaults will explode just as it did in 2009.
Growing premiums confirm paper traders are slowly losing their ability to keep silver under valued. Physical silver prices are telling us the day will come when silver buyers no long follow spot price nor use it to determine what they will pay for actual silver.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
LOL. Recently sold two 10 oz bars for 36.86 an oz. And just to avoid being called a liar by you once again, here's a screenshot.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Dear derryb
Fear sells and it's costing people real money.
The world is not coming to an end , neither is the world economic system.
Can you stop the rain? Or figure a way to make money?
Well that's an eBay screenshot which you ended up getting nowhere near the advertised premiums after all the fees and hipping was subtracted. If gutter math helps you sleep well at night then I guess so be it. Sleep tight buttercup. I live in the real world. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Like I said, buyers paid the high premium that you said they aren't paying. Gutter math cares about premiums, real math cares about net gain:
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
As long as there is a world there will be an economic system. There is a very good chance that the one you know now is in the process of being replaced. Awareness and preparedness will prove beneficial.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The farmers I know would be more willing to accept precious metals than paper cash. That is true currently, and would likely be the case in a future crisis.
Physical precious metal prices are determined by investor faith in their currency but more importantly by their faith in those that control their currency. Currently it is believed that the FED is in control and they will be able to bring inflation back to their desired 2%. This is why PMs have not responded to inflation. It is still believed by most investors that high inflation is temporary.
Once investors realize that their central bank is responsible for high inflation (QE, money printing, zero rates, etc.) and that inflation is not going to normalize any time soon, they will turn to gold and silver for dollar protection. Those doing so now while prices are reasonably low will provide themselves the best dollar protection.
While spot prices remain under CONTROL, premiums are telling us that investors are wising up to the failures of the FED. As more wisdom is gained, look for premiums to increase. When the FED curtain is finally pulled fully open look for physical prices to skyrocket. Our current economic woes are the result of a single FED miscalculation - too much money in the system. Now they are scrambling trying to remove it. They can't.
It Turns Out They Really Thought They had a Crystal Ball
"Central bankers are panicking because their inability to predict the future has been revealed. Just this week former Fed Chair Janet Yellen was forced on live TV to admit that she had been "wrong then, about the path that inflation would take,”. Referring to comments made last year when she said inflation posed only “a small risk”. In case you had forgotten, Yellen along with central bankers and policymakers, patronised markets and savers for much of last year by telling us that spikes in inflation were just ‘transitory’ and would soon settle down. They said supply chains just needed to sort themselves out. Also, the demand and supply would soon find some kind of equilibrium."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
But i thought COMEX implosion was imminent?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear