Die polish, die state, strike and stars. A few questions.

bagofnickels

Hello everyone. I have some questions regarding a few things that I'm trying to piece together in my head correctly. It pertains to strike, die state and die polish lines. I understand that die polish lines come from a worker polishing dies at the mint and is then imparted on to the coins struck from those dies. When I see a coin with heavy die polish lines and a prooflike look to it how does that relate to die state? I often see the two referenced together but I don't know exactly why. I am also assuming that better strikes happen at a specific point in a dies life cycle but I don't exactly know how those 2 things correlate either. Could someone clear it up for me?

I also am curious about how some of these coins with heavy die polish lines and a prooflike look are viewed by collectors and TPG. In particular I'm wondering about NGCs star designation ( I realize the PCGS forum may not be the best place to ask a NGC question.) I occasionally see both walkers and mercury dimes (usually S mint 40s) with NGC stars. Those usually cost an arm and a leg. Is this because of the "look" they have featuring die polish lines, reflectivity and strike or just the star grade?

Thanks so much, I continue to learn a great deal here. This place is a valuable resource.

lilolme

Hey not an expert but here is my opinion and/or understanding.

First, your 2nd paragraph.
I do not collect star designations and do not know if others do, but if there are collectors buying star designations or trying to put together a set of them, then yes this could impact prices as they battle for that star.

However, the look can definitely impact the price and especially for PL. I don't know if you were comparing PL prices to normal MS but if so, then typically the PL is more. However, within the PL itself there are features that can bring more $. For instance at pcgs they define a PL as 2 to 4 inches of reflectivity. If a PL has 4" of reflectivity and another has 2" of reflectivity then all other things being equal the 4" mirror would probably be more. Next in the PL catagory is the cameo. Some PL have no cameo and other can look like a deep cameo proof. This will impact the price. So a 4" mirror and looking like a deep cameo may bring a lot more.

It may be that the star designations that you have seen have this cameo look as the ngc definition for a star (copied at bottom) notes this for the proof so I assume it would hold for PL.

As far as die polish lines and how desirable. I think most don't want them. If a coin has many PL examples, then find one without the die polish lines. However, if it is a coin that is seldom seen as a PL and you want a PL (maybe doing a PL set), then you may want to get it depending upon how often they come up or if most have the die polish lines anyway. Also die polish lines can vary in degree. So it could also depend on how visible they are.

On the strike here is my understanding. When you ask:
I am also assuming that better strikes happen at a specific point in a dies life cycle
The answer is Yes and NO.
For a PL the answer is Yes. The PL's occur early in the die life or early or early in the life after being refurbished / polished. While the die is much harder than the planchet, the striking process will wear on the surface of the die and the polishing will diminish thus reducing the PL and then gone.

For a non-PL, then no or not necessarily. The strike is more about the strike pressure (and planchet). In some series some mints are know for good strikes while others poor. Sometimes pressure was reduced to extend die life but at a cost of a weaker strike. But a good strike can extend well into the life of a die. I suspect a heavily used die can have a deterioration of the device features, similar to the field, and impact the strike also. In general I don't believe the devices will deteriorate as quickly since there is less pressure there versus the fields. Note: this assumes the devices are raised.

Not all dies will produce a PL. The die needs to be polished sufficiently to produce the PL look.

From NGC website:
NGC assigns its trademarked Star Designation to coins with exceptional eye appeal for their assigned grade.

Eye appeal is the most subjective attribute of a coin, but there are many standards shared by numismatists. Exceptional eye appeal may include attributes such as vibrant, colorful toning; intense luster; or, in the case of Proof coins, especially strong cameo contrast. To receive a , coins must be free of any obvious planchet irregularities, and display no bothersome spots or blemishes. Toned coins can be of a single color or multicolored but cannot have any areas that are dark brown, approaching black.

It's important to remember that coins with the Star () Designation can fall anywhere within the grades to which they are assigned. For example, a coin graded NGC MS 64 could be at the lower end, mid-range or higher end of NGC MS 64.

NGC applies the to qualifying coins in its normal course of grading. Coins already certified by NGC can be resubmitted and reviewed for using the Designation Review service.

bagofnickels

Thanks @lilolme that helps me out a fair bit! The ultimate question I'm trying to answer is determining how much a coin I'm considering buying is worth. Its star graded and a common coin otherwise but I happen to like the well struck PL look of it.

Occasionally I see people reference PL and semi PL coins as coming from early die states. But what you're saying is that those coins could also be made by re-polishing dies at some point. So would the combination of fully struck AND semi PL likely be from and early die state?

I may see if I can find some auction records in regards to the star designation. Though even that isn't going to be incredibly helpful since the star can be handed out for different things.

Thanks so much for your reply!

lilolme

So first on the question on die state and PL and strike, I would recommend (highly) that you tag someone who has actual knowledge (expert type) in this area as I am outside my knowledge base and giving my understanding. One is 'dcarr'.

With that said a couple things to think about. Coin production from 1800 to today has changed greatly (press, planchet & die material, processing...) so I don't know if there is any global answer since it could be specific to a particular series and/or time.

If you have a die and it wears and then rework it back to the near same condition, then why would it not produce a PL again. With that said a couple things. There is a limit to how much rework can be done as it impacts the edges of the devices which are into the die (raised devices). Also how often that degree of rework would have been done, I don't know.

I am making up a term - highly polished. A die needs to be highly polished to produce a PL. As a visual, that has nothing to do with a die, let's say you have a surface and sandpaper. If you sand that surface with 120 grit paper it is smooth. Increasing grit to 250, 500, 1200 the surface gets smoother. At some point it becomes highly polished. Again this has nothing to do with actual die just a visualization. So a reworked (or new) die surface may or may not be highly polished.

So as to the question of PL and semi-PL and early die states, again I don't know. While pcgs defines PL as 2" to 4" reflectivity, I am not sure how one would define SPL. Seems like an undefined preference. Know it when I see it. How long can a die produce an undefined SPL? I don't know even if it was defined. Also this could vary depending on the series and materials and processes used at that time. Softer gold may wear die less than harder nickels.
Again I would recommend you tag someone with much more knowledge on this than me.

Pricing - yeah, ugh.

So a star and common. That helps some. Here are some general things one can do.

First review the coin and decide what you think of it. This may change as you look at information but need to start with an understanding of the coin.

Check price guides and understand what they are trying to represent. There should be a paragraph or so for each price guide that explains what they are trying to represent with their guide. I copied and pasted the pcgs one at bottom. With a star I suspect there won't be any price guides for that (unless maybe ngc has it). But the guide can give you a feel for low and high (can also look at adjacent grade prices). Also note what ngc says about star - that it can apply to low end to high end for the grade. So as noted for first step, evaluate the coin as best you can. A star does not mean it is high end for the grade per ngc description. Remember a guide is a guide only. If there are 3 of the same coin in an auction (low, middle and high end) they might sell for 400, 600 and 800. What should the guide represent. This is where reading an understand what the guide is attempting to represent is important. Attempting to represent? Well they get it wrong sometimes and then when was the last update.
Some guides - PCGS, NGC, CAC-CDN, coin world, numis-media. Others...

You said auction price and yes do this. Again the evaluation of the coin you are looking at is important. Similarly what does the auction coin look like. Back to the low, medium, high thing. But there are other factors like toning (ugly, neutral, nice) can impact the price up or down. Then there is the little green sticker (CAC). If the coin you are looking at is eligible for CAC review and approval, then watch out for auction price that are for a CAC approved coin. This can impact the price from very little to 2X plus depending on the specific coin. As you are doing this you might change your opinion on the coin you are looking at up or down.
Oh, additionally make sure the auction is recent. Today's prices are up in many areas and more in some. A auction record from 2018 or even more recently might be out of date now depending on the coin.

Then there are dealer inventory. You can do a search for the coin and see what comes up or look on collectors corner as several dealers upload inventory there. Search and do the same thing - review their coin to the one you are considering and the prices. Also on collectors corner many auction companies (HA, SB, GC, LA, DL) upload their current auction inventory for many coins (not sure about all). See if there are any currently at auction and how long before the auction ends (days to weeks usually) and could watch for that. It comes up with the dealer inventory, no special search required.

I noticed you said PL look. So I am guessing it is not necessarily labeled / graded PL. If not, then focus on the PL look as a feature of your evaluation of the coin and not a PL.

Hope this helps some.

From PCSG website and price guide
IMPORTANT

The PCGS Price Guide prices apply only to PCGS-graded coins. The PCGS Price Guide is a guide to assist the coin buying public in determining values for all important United States rare coins. Before you use the Price Guide, you should read the following information very carefully.

WHAT DO PCGS PRICES MEAN?

The prices listed in the PCGS Price Guide are average dealer asking prices for PCGS-graded coins. The prices are compiled from various sources including dealer ads in trade papers, dealer fixed price lists and website offerings, significant auctions, and activity at major coin shows. Dealer specialists and expert collectors provide pricing input. Remember that the prices are just a guide, a starting point for asserting value. Some PCGS coins sell for less than the prices listed and some PCGS coins sell for more than the prices listed.