@MWallace said:
Why are we all so worried about insulting a dealer? They (coin dealers) should be worried about insulting us (the customer).
Without more information, we don't know how the coin really should be priced. If you approach this scenario with the mindset that the dealer is dead wrong, then you run the risk that the dealer won't want to do business with you in the future. Maybe that's fine, but maybe one day there will be a better coin for which you could make a deal, but the dealer has no interest in working with you. A high price may be the dealer insulting the customer, or it may be fully justified and the OP just doesn't know it. Or it could just be a case where you have to agree to disagree. Even if you can't come to a resolution, how you carry yourself carries a lot of weight for any future relationship.
No one, for ANY reason, is "fully justified" in insulting someone that they don't know whether in numismatics or some other scenario. If someone thinks they are, it says more about them than the person they are insulting.
Two different types of insults. If I offer a dealer a fraction of what a coin is worth, he may be insulted and think I'm wasting his time. Same if he quotes me multiples of what a coin is worth and I think he's wasting my time.
If I call a dealer an fat, ugly slob, that is also an insult and makes me a pretty terrible person. It's not remotely the same as a time-wasting insult. One is unjustified in the course of being a good person. One is simply ill-advised if you want access to a dealer's inventory and general good will.
A person can't be insulted unless they let someone insult them.
@MWallace said:
Why are we all so worried about insulting a dealer? They (coin dealers) should be worried about insulting us (the customer).
I understand this isn't eBay, but many would prefer not to be added to a blocked bidder list, and I assume many dealers have a list of people they would prefer not to do business with. If I were to pester the dealer making ridiculous offers, I'm perhaps making myself unable to buy a future coin offered by this dealer at a price I find reasonable. It's not exactly "insulting" that I'd be worried about.
Too much unknown info about this deal... but here's an idea. Contact the dealer and tell him exactly what you stated in the OP... that you are definitely interested but your research (quote sources) places a value on this piece of no more than $5k. Assuming your research is accurate and up to date that is. Ask how he arrived at the 7K figure and ask if he's flexible. You likely won't get it bought at $5k but you may get it at a better price. It all depends on how badly you want this particular piece I suppose.
Another factor is time. Has the coin been listed for awhile? Assuming the price is too high for the market, it will sit unsold. The timing of your offer could have an effect in your favor. Perhaps wait for time to pass along with the previous suggestions on how to approach the dealer.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
When you call ask what the dealer is paying for another one of those coins in the same tpg grade/slab.
It always fascinates me to know that answer when a dealer prices coins at 30-100% above market value. Many times I wish I could sell my exact same graded coin they have for just half the price they’re asking.
@1madman said:
When you call ask what the dealer is paying for another one of those coins in the same tpg grade/slab.
He will ask you for good pics before he makes you an offer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Spoke to the dealer today. As expected I learned something. The coin had just sold as it went off the site today, but it would not have been for me anyway I suppose. The PCGS cert number is 31782004 if interested in the TrueView. Maybe I should have posted the coin originally but I was afraid the discussion would be more about coin condition than the offer process.
I was told that because the coin was from the Star City collection, all the coins are considered in a higher level than their peers and the markup will be like this one was. I researched the collection and that seems to be the case, but since I don't focus on Morgans and Gold, I was unaware.
(Apologize for the typo in the original post as there was a CAC sticker)
Thanks for the follow-up information. I went looking through 55s and 58s and this one is graded correctly, but is clearly more attractive than other 55s that I see in auction records and was priced accordingly.
I tracked a lot of these coins from Salt City that were/are listed on eBay, all of the coins I had saved in my watchlist seemed over priced, hence, they are all still available. Guess I'm not the only one who though they were over priced.
Hang in there, there will be another one out there I'm sure at a better price level
Thanks for the thread, I found it interesting what others had to say
I'm glad you contacted the dealer. If you are being honest, I do not think you would encounter a problem. Look at it this way, you learned some valuable information by making the call, now you will not be concerned about making the next call and you were educated in a topic you were unfamiliar with and, most likely, as many of us were.
Thanks again for you post.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@Broadstruck said:
Price guides don't really matter much on higher grade early copper that is completely unmolested and has not a single distraction mark of any type.
That is a fabulous looking coin for a series where even the nice ones can look like crap.
@Broadstruck said:
Price guides don't really matter much on higher grade early copper that is completely unmolested and has not a single distraction mark of any type.
That is a fabulous looking coin for a series where even the nice ones can look like crap.
I had a 62 once that couldn't hold a candle to this coin.
@Broadstruck said:
Price guides don't really matter much on higher grade early copper that is completely unmolested and has not a single distraction mark of any type.
I've come to the same conclusion with regard to all grades of early copper. For my series - Draped Bust Large Cents - I never refer to price guides.
Regardless of price, few coins are actually rare. When looking for difficult to find coins, I check with a well placed source who knows what I like and what I am willing to spend, and wait. Sometimes I wait years.
Unlike Bryce, I'd advise you to stay away from shot coins. You pay a steep premium for them, and from my experience, as a collector, you rarely get the upgrade.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@MWallace said:
Why are we all so worried about insulting a dealer? They (coin dealers) should be worried about insulting us (the customer).
Without more information, we don't know how the coin really should be priced. If you approach this scenario with the mindset that the dealer is dead wrong, then you run the risk that the dealer won't want to do business with you in the future. Maybe that's fine, but maybe one day there will be a better coin for which you could make a deal, but the dealer has no interest in working with you. A high price may be the dealer insulting the customer, or it may be fully justified and the OP just doesn't know it. Or it could just be a case where you have to agree to disagree. Even if you can't come to a resolution, how you carry yourself carries a lot of weight for any future relationship.
No one, for ANY reason, is "fully justified" in insulting someone that they don't know whether in numismatics or some other scenario. If someone thinks they are, it says more about them than the person they are insulting.
Two different types of insults. If I offer a dealer a fraction of what a coin is worth, he may be insulted and think I'm wasting his time. Same if he quotes me multiples of what a coin is worth and I think he's wasting my time.
If I call a dealer an fat, ugly slob, that is also an insult and makes me a pretty terrible person. It's not remotely the same as a time-wasting insult. One is unjustified in the course of being a good person. One is simply ill-advised if you want access to a dealer's inventory and general good will.
A person can't be insulted unless they let someone insult them.
I don't understand the "insult" of a lowball offer. I sell non-coin items and have gotten laughably low offers and I just politely decline. I'm not insulted. The other person is just very ignorant, either of the value of the item or thinking a seller would accept a nonsense offer. I do believe it is rude if the person offering continues to pester, or actually insults by attacking my business acumen, product quality, etc. But a polite lowball offer is not insulting to me in any way.
So is this an unusual position? Do most sellers get "insulted" by a lowball offer?
@Broadstruck said:
Price guides don't really matter much on higher grade early copper that is completely unmolested and has not a single distraction mark of any type.
That is a fabulous looking coin for a series where even the nice ones can look like crap.
I had a 62 once that couldn't hold a candle to this coin.
Yeah, I believe that in fact $7K to me would have been very reasonable for this. Heck the dealer could have asked $9K which might seem aggressive, but I bet it would have still found a very happy new home rapidly.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
On early copper like this, the EAC grade, and especially, surface quality (scudzy, average and choice), as well as ranking by Noyes factors into the value. Glossy, light brown surfaces are exceedingly uncommon in the Classic Head cents of 1808-14. According to Breen, it was related to the copper stock the mint used.
This was my 1814 crosslet 4, in a PCGS AU58 holder:
I was told that because the coin was from the Star City collection, all the coins are considered in a higher level than their peers and the markup will be like this one was. I researched the collection and that seems to be the case, but since I don't focus on Morgans and Gold, I was unaware.
A markup is the amount over cost that a seller is asking, not the amount over a price guide value.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MWallace said:
Why are we all so worried about insulting a dealer? They (coin dealers) should be worried about insulting us (the customer).
Without more information, we don't know how the coin really should be priced. If you approach this scenario with the mindset that the dealer is dead wrong, then you run the risk that the dealer won't want to do business with you in the future. Maybe that's fine, but maybe one day there will be a better coin for which you could make a deal, but the dealer has no interest in working with you. A high price may be the dealer insulting the customer, or it may be fully justified and the OP just doesn't know it. Or it could just be a case where you have to agree to disagree. Even if you can't come to a resolution, how you carry yourself carries a lot of weight for any future relationship.
No one, for ANY reason, is "fully justified" in insulting someone that they don't know whether in numismatics or some other scenario. If someone thinks they are, it says more about them than the person they are insulting.
Two different types of insults. If I offer a dealer a fraction of what a coin is worth, he may be insulted and think I'm wasting his time. Same if he quotes me multiples of what a coin is worth and I think he's wasting my time.
If I call a dealer an fat, ugly slob, that is also an insult and makes me a pretty terrible person. It's not remotely the same as a time-wasting insult. One is unjustified in the course of being a good person. One is simply ill-advised if you want access to a dealer's inventory and general good will.
A person can't be insulted unless they let someone insult them.
I don't understand the "insult" of a lowball offer. I sell non-coin items and have gotten laughably low offers and I just politely decline. I'm not insulted. The other person is just very ignorant, either of the value of the item or thinking a seller would accept a nonsense offer. I do believe it is rude if the person offering continues to pester, or actually insults by attacking my business acumen, product quality, etc. But a polite lowball offer is not insulting to me in any way.
So is this an unusual position? Do most sellers get "insulted" by a lowball offer?
I don't know if insulted is the correct term. But I will ban people who lowball. For example, I listed a bunch of low grade large cents in ebay auctions. A "buyer" sent me three separate messages on 3 separate coins offering to buy at a little more than half the opening bid. Each offer explained that due to condition that was a reasonable offer. I blocked him. All coins sold at or above the opening bid, as I expected. Life is too short to waste time with such nuisances.
Was I insulted? No. But I had no interest in dealing further with him. The ones I find detestable are the people who make sub wholesale offers on silver. They are clearly just hoping to take advantage of someone's ignorance. They also get immediately blocked as they are not serious buyers.
@Elcontador said:
Regardless of price, few coins are actually rare. When looking for difficult to find coins, I check with a well placed source who knows what I like and what I am willing to spend, and wait. Sometimes I wait years.
Unlike Bryce, I'd advise you to stay away from shot coins. You pay a steep premium for them, and from my experience, as a collector, you rarely get the upgrade.
To be clear, I'd stay away from them too. The only exception would be that you really know the series, are comfortable with your grading skills, are comfortable with the price if it doesn't upgrade, and the risk/reward ratio is favorable. With regards to the dealer I mentioned, I maybe bought 1 in 20 of the coins he considered to be undergraded. I didn't set out to buy them to upgrade them either. When it came time to sell them, I tried about half of them for upgrade and about half of those did. This was in a time that it wasn't too hard to get a plus grade, and in that made quite a difference in value. A couple went up a numerical grade too. The ones that I thought had upgrade potential were a very small subset of the coins I was going through.
This particular coin is really nice, and I don't think the asking price was out of line. The new owner apparently didn't either.
Thanks for posting the end of the story. Many of these threads just fade out without resolution.
As for price guides, they're just guides, and beyond generics, they break down pretty quickly in the real world.
That is a very nice large cent and in excellent condition. When they look like this you can pretty much throw out the price guides, at least to a certain extent. This is one of those coins where you might not find another one like it for a long time.
I don't understand the "insult" of a lowball offer. I sell non-coin items and have gotten laughably low offers and I just politely decline. I'm not insulted. The other person is just very ignorant, either of the value of the item or thinking a seller would accept a nonsense offer. I do believe it is rude if the person offering continues to pester, or actually insults by attacking my business acumen, product quality, etc. But a polite lowball offer is not insulting to me in any way.
So is this an unusual position? Do most sellers get "insulted" by a lowball offer?
I don't know if insulted is the correct term. But I will ban people who lowball. For example, I listed a bunch of low grade large cents in ebay auctions. A "buyer" sent me three separate messages on 3 separate coins offering to buy at a little more than half the opening bid. Each offer explained that due to condition that was a reasonable offer. I blocked him. All coins sold at or above the opening bid, as I expected. Life is too short to waste time with such nuisances.
Was I insulted? No. But I had no interest in dealing further with him. The ones I find detestable are the people who make sub wholesale offers on silver. They are clearly just hoping to take advantage of someone's ignorance. They also get immediately blocked as they are not serious buyers.
Agree 100%. Offering half of what someone's asking for something isn't an attempted negotiation; it's a waste of time. There are tons of such people on eBay who sport bid absurdly low numbers on various things figuring they might get lucky on one. And yes, to me it's an insult as it shows a lack of respect for the seller's time and investment.
You needed to do more homework on the coin. CAC price guide has the coin at $6250, so the seller asking 7K was not unreasonable for a quality example in this series.
@Catbert said:
Another factor is time. Has the coin been listed for awhile? Assuming the price is too high for the market, it will sit unsold. The timing of your offer could have an effect in your favor. Perhaps wait for time to pass along with the previous suggestions on how to approach the dealer.
Maybe it's thinly traded, but if it was a good buy it would be gone by now. There are some who think that every coin in their case is PQ+++. How does it compare to other stuff he's selling?
@hbarbee said:
Spoke to the dealer today. As expected I learned something. The coin had just sold as it went off the site today, but it would not have been for me anyway I suppose. The PCGS cert number is 31782004 if interested in the TrueView. Maybe I should have posted the coin originally but I was afraid the discussion would be more about coin condition than the offer process.
I was told that because the coin was from the Star City collection, all the coins are considered in a higher level than their peers and the markup will be like this one was. I researched the collection and that seems to be the case, but since I don't focus on Morgans and Gold, I was unaware.
(Apologize for the typo in the original post as there was a CAC sticker)
HB
Posting specifics about a coin also invites someone to buy it out from under you.The same for eBay listings. If it's on your get list don't post the eBay listing until AFTER the auction is over.
@Catbert said:
Another factor is time. Has the coin been listed for awhile? Assuming the price is too high for the market, it will sit unsold. The timing of your offer could have an effect in your favor. Perhaps wait for time to pass along with the previous suggestions on how to approach the dealer.
Maybe it's thinly traded, but if it was a good buy it would be gone by now. There are some who think that every coin in their case is PQ+++. How does it compare to other stuff he's selling?
Yes, now that he posted the coin, I can see why it didn't sit in the dealer's inventory for a long time.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@MWallace said:
Why are we all so worried about insulting a dealer? They (coin dealers) should be worried about insulting us (the customer).
Without more information, we don't know how the coin really should be priced. If you approach this scenario with the mindset that the dealer is dead wrong, then you run the risk that the dealer won't want to do business with you in the future. Maybe that's fine, but maybe one day there will be a better coin for which you could make a deal, but the dealer has no interest in working with you. A high price may be the dealer insulting the customer, or it may be fully justified and the OP just doesn't know it. Or it could just be a case where you have to agree to disagree. Even if you can't come to a resolution, how you carry yourself carries a lot of weight for any future relationship.
No one, for ANY reason, is "fully justified" in insulting someone that they don't know whether in numismatics or some other scenario. If someone thinks they are, it says more about them than the person they are insulting.
Two different types of insults. If I offer a dealer a fraction of what a coin is worth, he may be insulted and think I'm wasting his time. Same if he quotes me multiples of what a coin is worth and I think he's wasting my time.
If I call a dealer an fat, ugly slob, that is also an insult and makes me a pretty terrible person. It's not remotely the same as a time-wasting insult. One is unjustified in the course of being a good person. One is simply ill-advised if you want access to a dealer's inventory and general good will.
A person can't be insulted unless they let someone insult them.
I don't understand the "insult" of a lowball offer. I sell non-coin items and have gotten laughably low offers and I just politely decline. I'm not insulted. The other person is just very ignorant, either of the value of the item or thinking a seller would accept a nonsense offer. I do believe it is rude if the person offering continues to pester, or actually insults by attacking my business acumen, product quality, etc. But a polite lowball offer is not insulting to me in any way.
So is this an unusual position? Do most sellers get "insulted" by a lowball offer?
I don't know if insulted is the correct term. But I will ban people who lowball. For example, I listed a bunch of low grade large cents in ebay auctions. A "buyer" sent me three separate messages on 3 separate coins offering to buy at a little more than half the opening bid. Each offer explained that due to condition that was a reasonable offer. I blocked him. All coins sold at or above the opening bid, as I expected. Life is too short to waste time with such nuisances.
Was I insulted? No. But I had no interest in dealing further with him. The ones I find detestable are the people who make sub wholesale offers on silver. They are clearly just hoping to take advantage of someone's ignorance. They also get immediately blocked as they are not serious buyers.
@Catbert said:
Another factor is time. Has the coin been listed for awhile? Assuming the price is too high for the market, it will sit unsold. The timing of your offer could have an effect in your favor. Perhaps wait for time to pass along with the previous suggestions on how to approach the dealer.
Maybe it's thinly traded, but if it was a good buy it would be gone by now. There are some who think that every coin in their case is PQ+++. How does it compare to other stuff he's selling?
But it was "gone" when the OP checked with the dealer, so maybe it was a "good buy".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How often does this particular coin come up for auction, and when they do, do they have nice eye appeal? I collect early copper... there are plenty of 1794 Liberty Cap Cents out there, but very few with stellar eye appeal. When they come up for auction, the bidding is strong... when offered for sale, the prices are reflective of this. Thus has been especially true as of late in a hot market.
Edited to add: just seeing the actual coin... wow... Classic Head Large Cents are super tough to find that nice. I can sort of understand the asking price now...
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
@Elcontador said:
Regardless of price, few coins are actually rare. When looking for difficult to find coins, I check with a well placed source who knows what I like and what I am willing to spend, and wait. Sometimes I wait years.
Unlike Bryce, I'd advise you to stay away from shot coins. You pay a steep premium for them, and from my experience, as a collector, you rarely get the upgrade.
To be clear, I'd stay away from them too. The only exception would be that you really know the series, are comfortable with your grading skills, are comfortable with the price if it doesn't upgrade, and the risk/reward ratio is favorable. With regards to the dealer I mentioned, I maybe bought 1 in 20 of the coins he considered to be undergraded. I didn't set out to buy them to upgrade them either. When it came time to sell them, I tried about half of them for upgrade and about half of those did. This was in a time that it wasn't too hard to get a plus grade, and in that made quite a difference in value. A couple went up a numerical grade too. The ones that I thought had upgrade potential were a very small subset of the coins I was going through.
This particular coin is really nice, and I don't think the asking price was out of line. The new owner apparently didn't either.
Thanks for posting the end of the story. Many of these threads just fade out without resolution.
As for price guides, they're just guides, and beyond generics, they break down pretty quickly in the real world.
Bryce, thanks for clarifying your earlier comment.
Edited to add that the above Classic is head and shoulders nicer than most you will find at that, or for that matter, any grade. The only issue I have with it is that pre 1815 copper can turn in holder. It has happened to me. For this reason, I won't buy one that isn't in an OGH or earlier holder, which means I probably won't be buying a Classic or Draped Bust Cent (or Draped Bust 1/2 Cent) any time soon.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@hbarbee said:
Spoke to the dealer today. As expected I learned something. The coin had just sold as it went off the site today, but it would not have been for me anyway I suppose. The PCGS cert number is 31782004 if interested in the TrueView. Maybe I should have posted the coin originally but I was afraid the discussion would be more about coin condition than the offer process.
I was told that because the coin was from the Star City collection, all the coins are considered in a higher level than their peers and the markup will be like this one was. I researched the collection and that seems to be the case, but since I don't focus on Morgans and Gold, I was unaware.
(Apologize for the typo in the original post as there was a CAC sticker)
HB
As others have said, we appreciated you keeping us up to date and that the coin did have a CAC.
I'm still curious as to why you wanted to buy it in the first place and wonder whether another coin would have been just as satisfactory? Your statement "...since I don't focus on Morgans and Gold, I was unaware." was a little confusing.
@MWallace said:
Why are we all so worried about insulting a dealer? They (coin dealers) should be worried about insulting us (the customer).
Without more information, we don't know how the coin really should be priced. If you approach this scenario with the mindset that the dealer is dead wrong, then you run the risk that the dealer won't want to do business with you in the future. Maybe that's fine, but maybe one day there will be a better coin for which you could make a deal, but the dealer has no interest in working with you. A high price may be the dealer insulting the customer, or it may be fully justified and the OP just doesn't know it. Or it could just be a case where you have to agree to disagree. Even if you can't come to a resolution, how you carry yourself carries a lot of weight for any future relationship.
No one, for ANY reason, is "fully justified" in insulting someone that they don't know whether in numismatics or some other scenario. If someone thinks they are, it says more about them than the person they are insulting.
Two different types of insults. If I offer a dealer a fraction of what a coin is worth, he may be insulted and think I'm wasting his time. Same if he quotes me multiples of what a coin is worth and I think he's wasting my time.
If I call a dealer an fat, ugly slob, that is also an insult and makes me a pretty terrible person. It's not remotely the same as a time-wasting insult. One is unjustified in the course of being a good person. One is simply ill-advised if you want access to a dealer's inventory and general good will.
A person can't be insulted unless they let someone insult them.
I don't understand the "insult" of a lowball offer. I sell non-coin items and have gotten laughably low offers and I just politely decline. I'm not insulted. The other person is just very ignorant, either of the value of the item or thinking a seller would accept a nonsense offer. I do believe it is rude if the person offering continues to pester, or actually insults by attacking my business acumen, product quality, etc. But a polite lowball offer is not insulting to me in any way.
So is this an unusual position? Do most sellers get "insulted" by a lowball offer?
I don't know if insulted is the correct term. But I will ban people who lowball. For example, I listed a bunch of low grade large cents in ebay auctions. A "buyer" sent me three separate messages on 3 separate coins offering to buy at a little more than half the opening bid. Each offer explained that due to condition that was a reasonable offer. I blocked him. All coins sold at or above the opening bid, as I expected. Life is too short to waste time with such nuisances.
Was I insulted? No. But I had no interest in dealing further with him. The ones I find detestable are the people who make sub wholesale offers on silver. They are clearly just hoping to take advantage of someone's ignorance. They also get immediately blocked as they are not serious buyers.
@Catbert said:
Another factor is time. Has the coin been listed for awhile? Assuming the price is too high for the market, it will sit unsold. The timing of your offer could have an effect in your favor. Perhaps wait for time to pass along with the previous suggestions on how to approach the dealer.
Maybe it's thinly traded, but if it was a good buy it would be gone by now. There are some who think that every coin in their case is PQ+++. How does it compare to other stuff he's selling?
But it was "gone" when the OP checked with the dealer, so maybe it was a "good buy".
If there was one good buyer they connected sooner rather than later. If more than one what took so long?
No harm in making an offer. Usually the worst that can happen is that the seller says no or even hell no.
@Catbert said:
Another factor is time. Has the coin been listed for awhile? Assuming the price is too high for the market, it will sit unsold. The timing of your offer could have an effect in your favor. Perhaps wait for time to pass along with the previous suggestions on how to approach the dealer.
Maybe it's thinly traded, but if it was a good buy it would be gone by now. There are some who think that every coin in their case is PQ+++. How does it compare to other stuff he's selling?
But it was "gone" when the OP checked with the dealer, so maybe it was a "good buy".
If there was one good buyer they connected sooner rather than later. If more than one what took so long?
No harm in making an offer. Usually the worst that can happen is that the seller says no or even hell no.
Anyway the OP still has his $7K so there's that.
How did you reach the conclusion that it “took so long” for the coin to sell?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Catbert said:
Another factor is time. Has the coin been listed for awhile? Assuming the price is too high for the market, it will sit unsold. The timing of your offer could have an effect in your favor. Perhaps wait for time to pass along with the previous suggestions on how to approach the dealer.
Maybe it's thinly traded, but if it was a good buy it would be gone by now. There are some who think that every coin in their case is PQ+++. How does it compare to other stuff he's selling?
But it was "gone" when the OP checked with the dealer, so maybe it was a "good buy".
If there was one good buyer they connected sooner rather than later. If more than one what took so long?
No harm in making an offer. Usually the worst that can happen is that the seller says no or even hell no.
Anyway the OP still has his $7K so there's that.
How did you reach the conclusion that it “took so long” for the coin to sell?
The OP posted on the 17th and who knows how long it was there before that. Some stuff that people want sells within minutes of being posted. I bet some folks look on some dealers' site multiple times a days. Not sure if the dealer who had the coins was one of those frequently visited sites.
@hbarbee said:
Spoke to the dealer today. As expected I learned something. The coin had just sold as it went off the site today, but it would not have been for me anyway I suppose. The PCGS cert number is 31782004 if interested in the TrueView. Maybe I should have posted the coin originally but I was afraid the discussion would be more about coin condition than the offer process.
I was told that because the coin was from the Star City collection, all the coins are considered in a higher level than their peers and the markup will be like this one was. I researched the collection and that seems to be the case, but since I don't focus on Morgans and Gold, I was unaware.
(Apologize for the typo in the original post as there was a CAC sticker)
HB
Hate to say it, but given it is CAC and after viewing the images, paying a 55.5% premium over pcgs price is reasonable. That was truly a great coin and if I was buying in that series and compared that coin to its peers, I would see why it had the mark up it did and likely pull the trigger. Right now the market is hot, a 58/CAC went for $9600 at Ha last year, so $7K for a 55 of that quality, well yes.
Comments
A person can't be insulted unless they let someone insult them.
I understand this isn't eBay, but many would prefer not to be added to a blocked bidder list, and I assume many dealers have a list of people they would prefer not to do business with. If I were to pester the dealer making ridiculous offers, I'm perhaps making myself unable to buy a future coin offered by this dealer at a price I find reasonable. It's not exactly "insulting" that I'd be worried about.
Just for giggles can you tell us the PCGS price guide value?
Too much unknown info about this deal... but here's an idea. Contact the dealer and tell him exactly what you stated in the OP... that you are definitely interested but your research (quote sources) places a value on this piece of no more than $5k. Assuming your research is accurate and up to date that is. Ask how he arrived at the 7K figure and ask if he's flexible. You likely won't get it bought at $5k but you may get it at a better price. It all depends on how badly you want this particular piece I suppose.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Another factor is time. Has the coin been listed for awhile? Assuming the price is too high for the market, it will sit unsold. The timing of your offer could have an effect in your favor. Perhaps wait for time to pass along with the previous suggestions on how to approach the dealer.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
When you call ask what the dealer is paying for another one of those coins in the same tpg grade/slab.
It always fascinates me to know that answer when a dealer prices coins at 30-100% above market value. Many times I wish I could sell my exact same graded coin they have for just half the price they’re asking.
He will ask you for good pics before he makes you an offer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Spoke to the dealer today. As expected I learned something. The coin had just sold as it went off the site today, but it would not have been for me anyway I suppose. The PCGS cert number is 31782004 if interested in the TrueView. Maybe I should have posted the coin originally but I was afraid the discussion would be more about coin condition than the offer process.
I was told that because the coin was from the Star City collection, all the coins are considered in a higher level than their peers and the markup will be like this one was. I researched the collection and that seems to be the case, but since I don't focus on Morgans and Gold, I was unaware.
(Apologize for the typo in the original post as there was a CAC sticker)
HB
All for the best, thanks for posting this topic and for all of the varied input here
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
There is always another coin and another day, most seasoned dealers learn to not fall in love with coins they may get buried in.
Thanks for the follow-up information. I went looking through 55s and 58s and this one is graded correctly, but is clearly more attractive than other 55s that I see in auction records and was priced accordingly.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I tracked a lot of these coins from Salt City that were/are listed on eBay, all of the coins I had saved in my watchlist seemed over priced, hence, they are all still available. Guess I'm not the only one who though they were over priced.
Hang in there, there will be another one out there I'm sure at a better price level
Thanks for the thread, I found it interesting what others had to say
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Not that it matters, but I think $6,000 to $7000 is the right price for that coin. Greysheet bid is $5000 and CPG is $6250.
So the dealer wasn't fishing for a sucker?
I'm glad you contacted the dealer. If you are being honest, I do not think you would encounter a problem. Look at it this way, you learned some valuable information by making the call, now you will not be concerned about making the next call and you were educated in a topic you were unfamiliar with and, most likely, as many of us were.
Thanks again for you post.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Price guides don't really matter much on higher grade early copper that is completely unmolested and has not a single distraction mark of any type.
That is a fabulous looking coin for a series where even the nice ones can look like crap.
I had a 62 once that couldn't hold a candle to this coin.
Reconsideration?
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Not in my opinion. That coin is exceptional. Even a very average 55 is $5000+
I've come to the same conclusion with regard to all grades of early copper. For my series - Draped Bust Large Cents - I never refer to price guides.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Regardless of price, few coins are actually rare. When looking for difficult to find coins, I check with a well placed source who knows what I like and what I am willing to spend, and wait. Sometimes I wait years.
Unlike Bryce, I'd advise you to stay away from shot coins. You pay a steep premium for them, and from my experience, as a collector, you rarely get the upgrade.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Beautiful coin. Well worth the price of admission. Congrats to the lucky new owner.
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$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I don't understand the "insult" of a lowball offer. I sell non-coin items and have gotten laughably low offers and I just politely decline. I'm not insulted. The other person is just very ignorant, either of the value of the item or thinking a seller would accept a nonsense offer. I do believe it is rude if the person offering continues to pester, or actually insults by attacking my business acumen, product quality, etc. But a polite lowball offer is not insulting to me in any way.
So is this an unusual position? Do most sellers get "insulted" by a lowball offer?
Yeah, I believe that in fact $7K to me would have been very reasonable for this. Heck the dealer could have asked $9K which might seem aggressive, but I bet it would have still found a very happy new home rapidly.
On early copper like this, the EAC grade, and especially, surface quality (scudzy, average and choice), as well as ranking by Noyes factors into the value. Glossy, light brown surfaces are exceedingly uncommon in the Classic Head cents of 1808-14. According to Breen, it was related to the copper stock the mint used.
This was my 1814 crosslet 4, in a PCGS AU58 holder:
A markup is the amount over cost that a seller is asking, not the amount over a price guide value.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
looks like a nice 55
I don't know if insulted is the correct term. But I will ban people who lowball. For example, I listed a bunch of low grade large cents in ebay auctions. A "buyer" sent me three separate messages on 3 separate coins offering to buy at a little more than half the opening bid. Each offer explained that due to condition that was a reasonable offer. I blocked him. All coins sold at or above the opening bid, as I expected. Life is too short to waste time with such nuisances.
Was I insulted? No. But I had no interest in dealing further with him. The ones I find detestable are the people who make sub wholesale offers on silver. They are clearly just hoping to take advantage of someone's ignorance. They also get immediately blocked as they are not serious buyers.
Is the PCGS price guide of $4500 too low?
it is nice, but who knows if $7K nice.
It is $6k to $7k nice.
Looking at the coin, I personally would have went for it, it's a beautiful specimen for the grade.
To be clear, I'd stay away from them too. The only exception would be that you really know the series, are comfortable with your grading skills, are comfortable with the price if it doesn't upgrade, and the risk/reward ratio is favorable. With regards to the dealer I mentioned, I maybe bought 1 in 20 of the coins he considered to be undergraded. I didn't set out to buy them to upgrade them either. When it came time to sell them, I tried about half of them for upgrade and about half of those did. This was in a time that it wasn't too hard to get a plus grade, and in that made quite a difference in value. A couple went up a numerical grade too. The ones that I thought had upgrade potential were a very small subset of the coins I was going through.
This particular coin is really nice, and I don't think the asking price was out of line. The new owner apparently didn't either.
Thanks for posting the end of the story. Many of these threads just fade out without resolution.
As for price guides, they're just guides, and beyond generics, they break down pretty quickly in the real world.
That is a very nice large cent and in excellent condition. When they look like this you can pretty much throw out the price guides, at least to a certain extent. This is one of those coins where you might not find another one like it for a long time.
Not an easy type to even find looking as nice as this one! …Especially if you want one with a sticker
Roseanne Barrett I - CAC Morgan Dollar Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (Retired)
Roseanne Barrett - CAC Basic Seated Liberty Type Set, Circulation Strikes
Agree 100%. Offering half of what someone's asking for something isn't an attempted negotiation; it's a waste of time. There are tons of such people on eBay who sport bid absurdly low numbers on various things figuring they might get lucky on one. And yes, to me it's an insult as it shows a lack of respect for the seller's time and investment.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
You needed to do more homework on the coin. CAC price guide has the coin at $6250, so the seller asking 7K was not unreasonable for a quality example in this series.
That could also be said about a toned over cleaned coin, no?
Maybe it's thinly traded, but if it was a good buy it would be gone by now. There are some who think that every coin in their case is PQ+++. How does it compare to other stuff he's selling?
Posting specifics about a coin also invites someone to buy it out from under you.The same for eBay listings. If it's on your get list don't post the eBay listing until AFTER the auction is over.
Yes, now that he posted the coin, I can see why it didn't sit in the dealer's inventory for a long time.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
But it was "gone" when the OP checked with the dealer, so maybe it was a "good buy".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How often does this particular coin come up for auction, and when they do, do they have nice eye appeal? I collect early copper... there are plenty of 1794 Liberty Cap Cents out there, but very few with stellar eye appeal. When they come up for auction, the bidding is strong... when offered for sale, the prices are reflective of this. Thus has been especially true as of late in a hot market.
Edited to add: just seeing the actual coin... wow... Classic Head Large Cents are super tough to find that nice. I can sort of understand the asking price now...
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Bryce, thanks for clarifying your earlier comment.
Edited to add that the above Classic is head and shoulders nicer than most you will find at that, or for that matter, any grade. The only issue I have with it is that pre 1815 copper can turn in holder. It has happened to me. For this reason, I won't buy one that isn't in an OGH or earlier holder, which means I probably won't be buying a Classic or Draped Bust Cent (or Draped Bust 1/2 Cent) any time soon.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
As others have said, we appreciated you keeping us up to date and that the coin did have a CAC.
I'm still curious as to why you wanted to buy it in the first place and wonder whether another coin would have been just as satisfactory? Your statement "...since I don't focus on Morgans and Gold, I was unaware." was a little confusing.
Just curious, no disrespect intended.
If there was one good buyer they connected sooner rather than later. If more than one what took so long?
No harm in making an offer. Usually the worst that can happen is that the seller says no or even hell no.
Anyway the OP still has his $7K so there's that.
How did you reach the conclusion that it “took so long” for the coin to sell?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The OP posted on the 17th and who knows how long it was there before that. Some stuff that people want sells within minutes of being posted. I bet some folks look on some dealers' site multiple times a days. Not sure if the dealer who had the coins was one of those frequently visited sites.
Hate to say it, but given it is CAC and after viewing the images, paying a 55.5% premium over pcgs price is reasonable. That was truly a great coin and if I was buying in that series and compared that coin to its peers, I would see why it had the mark up it did and likely pull the trigger. Right now the market is hot, a 58/CAC went for $9600 at Ha last year, so $7K for a 55 of that quality, well yes.
Best, SH