09SVDB Opinions first please, (No Link)

MarkW63

Please explain to me the location of this mint mark?
I made an effort to do side by side comparisons of all the known 4 die locations separately, and I tried to closely match the size of each.
Opinions anyone?

Panda4456

No idea. Going to see what other people post

ifthevamzarockin

If it doesn't match one of the 4 known positions that's all you need to see.

MarkW63

@ifthevamzarockin said:
If it doesn't match one of the 4 known positions that's all you need to see.

Well, the reverse from what I can tell (best I can tell) looks decent!
So, the mint mark style don't look awful!
Its position looks totally off, so, is this a counterfeit, or altered Philly VDB (added mint mark)?
I mean I get it that either or still makes it a PHONY! '
(Inside Joke)
And your stunt in my last thread means that your next bag of pig ear dog treats is only going to be the 12oz size not the 24oz, you've been a bad dog

ricko

I would vote fake... If it was a poll.... but it is not... So I will simply state 🤮 Cheers, RickO

Unknown

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MarkW63

@ricko
Hey, you know when I post one of these and want opinions it is somewhat of a "Poll" with the option of pointing out the coin's details

MarkW63

Looking at the structure of the mint mark again! The bottom serif looks more of just a round ball (DOT)!
The end little bar of the top serif doesn't look parallel with the body of the "S"!
And the overall line of the "S" appears to uniform meaning it don't look to transition from really FAT to really LEAN.
And then it location is wrong.
Here is the link to the listing, its a coin dealer and they have LOTS of 100% feedback, that was another reason for opinions on this one.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154952139219?hash=item2413de01d3:g:3wEAAOSwQNZiW3ZX

FlyingAl

Seller has ended the listing.

ifthevamzarockin

I sent the seller a message, they sent a thanks back and ended the listing.

MsMorrisine

thanks to gfhcoins

jesbroken

I'm worried that this might be a genuine 09SVDB. What coin has the shallow N?
Jim

MarkW63

@jesbroken said:
I'm worried that this might be a genuine 09SVDB. What coin has the shallow N?
Jim

What we call the type 1 Philly minted VDB, once I knew they existed I searched for a good example and bought one.
The picture below is that example and isn't related to the coin in the OP! Its a coin I personally own!

Thanks Jim for following my threads!
And Thanks to the group for continuing to work at maintaining the integrity of the coin collecting hobby!
I've had house guest today and so my time was limited on dealing with this coin, I did figure the seller was reputable due to so much positive feedback!

BuffaloIronTail

The V.D.B. is what bothers me the most. Roger Burdette was adamant that no V.D.B. dies were redone to remove the initials.

He would definitely say "BALONEY" to any suggestion that they were.

But...............the way they are worn down in relation to the rest of the reverse makes no sense.

It is my speculation open to discussion that the following would at least be one explanation to this situation.

I think the coin in question is a genuine 1909-S V.D.B. die that an attempt was made to remove the initials after word came down to stop using them.

This attempt by a San Francisco Mint employee was not totally successful, and a noticeable portion remained and the die was used to strike coins.

There needs to be more than one specimen (even more than that) to verify this, which has not happened, so this account is no doubt wrong.

But I threw it out anyway.

Pete

FlyingAl

@BuffaloIronTail I think that the VDB on this coin appears so worn because the coin is so worn, looks about VF20 or so. As much as the VDB may be worn, it doesn't change the fact that the S is in the wrong spot to be genuine.

As to removing the VDB from a die, it makes no sense. I would thunk that the mint would use the dies they had on hand and would just not add the VDB to any future dies. If the VDB was indeed removed, there would likely be coins with extreme die polish in that area or they would have traces of the VDB. I do thank you for throwing out this idea, it's important to think all possibilities through.

Also, it is quite possible that the San Francisco mint didn't have the capability to correctly remove the initials and the dies would have had to be sent to Philadelphia. This would also deter the mint from removing the VDB.

MarkW63

@jesbroken
Jim, I knew that there is also type 1 reverse & type 2 reverse of the 1909-S (No VDB) cents, although I don't personally own one I decided that for the purpose at hand I would set out to find some decent images of a raw example of one.
So, again, this is just example image of what we call a Type 2 reverse of a 1909-S Lincoln Cent!
Notice the "N" in UNITED!
Actually if you think about it there is really 3 different reverse designs of the San Francisco minted 09 Lincoln cent if you count the VDB, no VDB, shallow "N" and deep valley "N"

MsMorrisine

the mouth crease is wrong

the serif on the S is wrong

the mint mark position is wrong

the D in VDB is clear enough to know it is wrong.