Corrected poll. Gold VS Green sticker
Joey29
Posts: 458 ✭✭✭
Same quality and eye appeal but large price difference between MS 64 and MS 65 PCGS graded. Which would you buy. Same cost for either.
Corrected poll. Gold VS Green sticker
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
2
Comments
Which one is more expensive?
Edited thread to say the same. Thanks for the feedback
I can appreciate things noticed for what the could be rather than what they are labeled. Not all labels are correct.
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Suppose the coin was say a 1919D Walker Ms 65 for $250,000, still more comfortable with the 64 gold?
Yes
The market respects JAs eye more than PCGS. That's the piece you refuse to recognize. A gold 64 is AT LEAST a green 65. So at the same price...
The poll is still messed up…. What is the coin and the value spread in MS64-MS66?
I just don't like the gold stickers when the coin is priced at the next higher grade and then some...
Gold CAC no question in my mind. The market will pay at least 65 money, and most likely more.
Since eye appeal and price are the same you might as well simplify the example and just call it the same coin with different packaging. Otherwise people will think one may have a better chance at upgrading (or other priors they may have for a gold stickered coin). I chose green 65 since I would prefer my coins to be correctly graded, especially if the jump in price is large. That’s if I have no intention of selling the coin.
Do I think in the current market one would sell for more? Yes, the gold CAC, even if there is a large spread between grades. But in your example the price is the same so rather than assume that one coin is “cheap” I am interpreting your post as saying “assume the market values these equally”, which do YOU personally prefer.
Practically speaking, I imagine such gold stickered examples are rare because those are coins where it makes sense (certainly before CAC existed) to try hard for an upgrade.
It’s AT LEAST a green 65 if PCGS agrees. PCGS is still the foundation of our industry and CAC is the great value addition. Till a gold sticker coin is broken out and regraded at PCGS at a higher grade the 65 grade is theoretical. Anyway isn’t it better to have 6 eyes as in a PCGS green sticker as opposed to 3 with a gold sticker
Are you taking a poll or trying to get others to agree with your view?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Joey29 You only get 6 sets if eyes if the coin was a gold sticker cracked out and resubmitted for the 65, and then CACed. It is easily feasible that the coin originally graded 65 and CACed which would result in the 3 sets of eyes of the gold sticker coin.
Which is why the coins are equal in everything but a number according to the market.
Coin Photographer.
Nope. It's AT LEAST a green 65 even if it is never resubmitted to PCGS. That's how THE MARKET views a gold 64.
And if PCGS outranked CAC in THE MARKET, CAC wouldn't exist at all or carry a premium.
What do you think?
Still 2 sets of opinions as a 65 with a green 65
I answered assuming this was a coin I wanted to keep in my collection (i.e., with less weight placed on resale value). I would rather two respected grading experts agree my coin is a solid 65 rather than just one.
Thanks for justifying my opinion 😊
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I thought I'd throw you a little support. @jmlanzaf and @MFeld usually don't lose too many arguments when they're on the same side.
I don't play guesses games and games of chance. In theory the X-1 Gold CAC should be equal to the X Green CAC. But in practice, the X Green CAC is 100% certain. And due to insanity, I'm sure some crazy will pay that price for the X-1 Gold CAC and I'm not about that. I'm not going to pay 65 Green CAC money for a 64 Gold CAC.
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This poll aside, and regardless of what any of us prefer or think, below are the results for a dozen recent gold-stickered coins auctioned by Heritage. I believe that in each case, the price realized exceeded the price guide price for the next higher grade - in some cases, by huge margins. These results are consistent with what I’ve seen for nearly 15 years.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-half-eagles/half-eagles/1851-5-vf35-pcgs-gold-cac-pcgs-population-20-330-ngc-census-3-456-cdn-61612whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-vf35-min/a/63179-46686.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/flying-eagle-cents/small-cents/1858-1c-small-letters-ms63-pcgs-gold-cac-the-old-green-label-holder-uses-the-pcgs-number-for-the-large-date-variety-but/a/60250-92019.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/indian-cents/small-cents/1864-1c-copper-nickel-ms63-ngc-gold-cac-ngc-census-322-543-pcgs-population-589-880-cdn-325-whsle-bid-for-ngc-p/a/60250-92024.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/indian-cents/small-cents/1868-1c-ms64-red-and-brown-pcgs-gold-cac-pcgs-population-286-153-ngc-census-166-107-cdn-650-whsle-bid-for-ngc-/a/60250-92027.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/shield-nickels/nickels/1872-5c-pr64-pcgs-gold-cac-pcgs-population-142-181-ngc-census-107-160-cdn-418-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-pr64-min/a/60250-92080.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/mercury-dimes/dimes/1943-d-10c-ms65-full-bands-pcgs-gold-cac-pcgs-population-5007-5394-ngc-census-2145-3580-cdn-30-whsle-bid-for-n/a/60250-92161.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/standing-liberty-quarters/quarters-and-twenty-cents/1929-s-25c-ms65-pcgs-gold-cac-pcgs-population-276-170-ngc-census-177-140-cdn-360-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-ms65/a/60250-92181.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1880-s-1-ms65-ngc-gold-cac-ngc-census-36027-15795-pcgs-population-39089-14755-cdn-185-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs/a/60250-92276.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1881-s-1-ms65-ngc-gold-cac-ngc-census-56431-22708-pcgs-population-57619-18257-cdn-185-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs/a/60250-92308.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1886-1-pr63-pcgs-gold-cac-this-is-a-stunning-coin-for-the-grade-brilliant-and-deeply-mirrored-with-appreciable-undesig/a/60250-92497.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/gold-dollars/1856-g-1-slanted-5-ms63-pcgs-gold-cac-pcgs-population-203-142-ngc-census-162-90-cdn-560-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs/a/60250-92525.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-half-eagles/half-eagles/1844-5-au50-pcgs-gold-cac-pcgs-population-41-136-ngc-census-34-274-cdn-66817whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-au50-mi/a/60250-92545.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I will go with the known designation. Potential upgrade is there, but not guaranteed. Cheers, RickO
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The 65 cac is the one I want in my collection. I buy coins for me to enjoy, not for Heritage to enjoy… The 64 gold sticker is a 64 that some graders think should be higher. Maybe they are correct but it is still in a 64 holder…. Cracking it out and sending it in and seeing what happens is not for me personally.
I don’t think cracking out a coin with a gold sticker would be a great idea. It may not upgrade and you may not get your gold sticker back.
Most collectors of gold-stickered CAC coins buy them to enjoy for their collections, as well.
And they seem perfectly happy with them as they are, without resubmissions or crack-outs.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
"Most collectors of gold-stickered CAC coins buy them to enjoy for their collections, as well.
And they seem perfectly happy with them as they are, without resubmissions or crack-outs."
And most collectors seem perfectly happy with green-stickered coins as well... And also seem perfectly happy with them, without resubmissions or crack outs....
I never said or even implied otherwise. You were the one who brought up crack-outs, to which I replied that most collectors of gold-stickered coins don’t see a need for that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
These discussions of gold CACs have been really helpful.
These results could be skewed due to auction-gold sticker fever. Still even though not scientific my poll proved among a cross section of forum collectors the green was still preferred.
Then most forum collectors don’t understand the market. From a purely financial point of view, it is objectively a bad idea to buy the green CAC one grade up. The market will pay more for the gold CAC nearly every time, unless there’s something seriously wrong with the coin. That’s how it is and how it’s been for a long time.
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Doesn’t mean the gold sticker phenomenon may not eventually wear off. Many collectors want the double certification and seeing the 65 on the PCGS holder with no intention of selling. Could be in a few years more or less the green 65 will catch up or surpass gold the gold sticker.
It doesn't mean the green sticker phenomenon won't wear off, either. Many collectors want the gold-sticker certification and to see the 64 on the PCGS holder, with no intention of selling. In a few years, the green sticker 65 could fall further behind the gold sticker 64.
How about letting collectors buy what they like, without trying to convince them otherwise, just because you disagree with what they're doing? It doesn't appear that you started this poll, just to find out about collecting preferences. If that were the case, you wouldn't have kept posting in support of your personal view.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
6-ngc-census-34-274-cdn-66817whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-au50-mi/a/60250-92545.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
Clearly you are NOT a statistician. Your poll was 56/43 and only had 44 respondents including a number of resident CAC haters.
Frankly, @MFeld auction results are far MORE scientific and far more convincing as they show THE MARKET - bigger than your 44 forum members - consistently values the gold CAC more than the green CAC+1
@Joey29 I'm not sure why you keep bringing up this term "double certification" that you seem to have created. All gold CACs have the same amount of people looking at the coin that the green CACs do, the difference between them is that one has a green sticker and one has a gold.
You are assuming that all green CACs have at one point, been cracked and resubmitted and then sent to CAC. This does not happen for the large majority of CAC coins.
Coin Photographer.
No, what he's saying is that two sets of eyes looked at the gold sticker coin and one said 64 and the other said 65. In the case of the green, both set said 65.
This makes a little more sense. I still don’t know where he pulled the 6 sets of eyes figure from one of his posts but this helps explain the logic behind it. Thanks.
Coin Photographer.
Can I see a picture and price of each coin front and back? Then I will decide which COIN I like.
That sounds way too sensible!
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
IF, I had to chose between two similar coins I would choose the 65 Green CAC. I know I'm missing out on some great coins as I rarely consider a Gold CAC coin when I see it in a case at a show or in an auction as I just can't justify paying the extra money that (I know) it will take to secure that coin. I look, because I like coins, but I don't partake in making a counter offer to a dealer or bidding on such a coin once it's price extends beyond what it's worth to me. I'd prefer to find a coin I like, sticker or not. This works for me because I'm not in this for resale.
As my signature line says, I am a hobbyist and collector, not an investor. If I were an investor, dealer or flipper, I would go Gold CAC, ALL THE WAY!!!.
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I think a better question to ask is for the same EXACT coin, would prefer it in an MS 64 gold CAC or an MS 65 green CAC holder? I would prefer the MS 65 green CAC because it's in the right holder.
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There is the exclusivity factor. Gold sticker populations, given the current trends, will remain quite low. Rarity will remain.
The eye appeal factor is typically well satisfied by gold sticker coins. So you have nice coin with rarity.
The sales history bears out the high prices realized.
Summing up: Nice coin, rarity, solid prices historically realized.
One can certainly understand the votes for Gold.
My vote is more centered on cost to obtain. I recently had an opportunity to replace a coin in the collection with a nicer example at the same grade. However, the replacement has gold CAC. In hand it could sure be a wonderful 58, but it is in a 55 holder and cost me.
PCGS’s eye’s don’t always agree with CAC’s. While I totally agree the gold’s will sell for more than the next grade up 9 times out of 10. There’s no guarantee the gold will upgrade. Not everyone one has the same likes and dislikes. Perhaps my dismay with CAC is in the nice circ Barbers I feel he is failing miserably. I just see too many that don’t pass muster for me and are coins that would never have a place in my collection.
Now if only PCGS would award me a + on my 58’s that they want to grade MS now I would be happy!
I really did want opinions of collectors. I am responding to some comments only where appropriate. Mainly you and Jmlanzaf because you were taking strong positions against me, as another poster mentioned.
9 out of 10 times I would take the Gold CAC, but there are some I would take the 65 Green. It depends on the coin.
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First of all, I didn't take a strong opinion against you. I voted in your poll. You argued against my choice.
Second of all, if you're taking a poll, presumably you are asking for opinions not attempting to asssert one.
Would you take a gold 64 over a 65 no CAC?
In a recent GC sale, a gold stickered, green holder PCGS MS65 1906 Nickel sold for multiples of the next grade ($3,500). not sure what they saw in it.
Yes I would in this case. I still only responded to a few comments, not really attempting to influence the poll. Just interjecting occasionally
The only strong position I’ve expressed is that collectors should buy whatever they prefer. And I asserted that the “market” usually values gold-stickered CAC coins higher than green ones at the next grade up, then I backed it up. Of all the respondents here, you, the pollster, are the one who’s trying to do most of the persuading. Polls should be presented objectively, but this one has not been.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.