I've roll hunted 6 boxes of pennies and kept the stats on each one. Here's what I've found.
NordlandSalmon
Posts: 38 ✭✭
I'm new to this so there are some weird things. The percentages of wheat pennies and Canadians is weird. I thought I would find a lot more Canadians but so far I've found more wheat cents per box.
I've also found two 1920's wheaty and only one 1930's wheaty. It's not a huge sample size so it makes sense, but still, that was a bit strange.
I'm keeping all the copper to make some rings and bars. I don't plan to sell it for the copper value, just to smelt some of it for fun.
If you have any suggestions on what stats I should keep in this let me know.
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The first graph got messed up, so I fixed it
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I wouldn't announce this too publicly as it's illegal. I doubt you'd be a priority for prosecution but no need to publicize your intention to flaunt the rules.
@NordlandSalmon.... If I understand your first post correctly, you found quarters in cent rolls?? Not sure how they fit at all.... Cheers, RickO
I have a couple of comments:
1) You say you got 7 off-centered cents. Can you post pictures? I am more inclined to think they are misaligned die, rather than true off centers.
2) Quarters? Please confirm. And, if true, how do quarters fit in cent rolls?
3) How do you feel about your copper ratio? It seems low compared to my experience, but but maybe results vary by location.
There seems to be a small uptick in older coins turning up in circulation. This is probably caused by heirs finding jars of coins in estates, quickly rolling them and cashing them in or taking them to the Coinstar machine.
Canadian coins used to be commonly seen in my area (Detroit). That does not mean they were loved. I was recently at the bank waiting behind an older man who was cashing in a large number of dime rolls. The bank teller ran a magnet against each roll, then emptied any rolls that had attracted the magnet and took out the Canadian coins and gave them back to the older man. This whole operation probably took up mare than a half hour. (I stepped out, went to the nearby Kroger store, shopped and then returned to the bank. They were still going through the rolls!)
Canada stopped using cent coins about ten years ago. Since that time the number I get in circulation has fallen off sharply but not completely. In the past two years I have amassed a total of 28 Canadian cents in change and from Coinstar reject slots. This is less than half the number I used to get.
Salmon - are you looking for any varieties ??? that is where some high value pennies could be hiding - like a 1999 Wide AM
where are you located ??? are you doing a mint mark count P-D-S ????
@JBK That is incorrect, you are allowed to smelt down copper if it's not used to sell strictly for profiting off of the raw materials. I am using it to make rings and other little things rather than profit off of the raw materials.
@Rampage I need to update this, they are off centered, but it's so slight that it doesn't matter. I'm new to this so it looked more valuable than I originally thought.
@ricko 2) wheatys, not quarters. my bad.
3)I have no idea what a normal copper ratio is, lol. Box 4 and 5 were both skunks that were mostly uncirculated so very little copper if anything. The other boxes seemed to be pretty good though.
@291fifth I wish I got more of them, I love the King George and young head designs from earlier.
@Snowman24 I do look for varieties, not in the first box but I am later on. Probably starting with box 3. I'll start paying closer attention to that. I really started this because I liked wheaties and older pennies along with wanting some copper.
I don't want to share my exact location, sorry about that
I am not doing a mint mark count, way too much time on that one. I'll think about how to implement that. Thing is, I live closer to Denver, so most of my coins are from denver with the occasional P and S. Mint mark data wasn't as interesting to me, but I'll consider it, thank you for the suggestion
Interesting research but, not to demonize your work but in my mind. It's all a crap shoot as to what one may find in ANY bank box or rolls. About one year ago, I came across a bank box that contained over 180 wheaties! Best ones were a 1910s and a decent 1909 no s/vdb. Ever since, Never found a box anywhere near that one. Like mentioned above. It all depends where people drop off there old wheat collections. Some may even unload a well uncirculated batch of coins.
In which happen to me last week. The bank had 30 Half Dollar rolls. All uncirculated! Thanks for your study and all the work you put into it.
Like I said, "very interesting."
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I studied this extensively some years ago since I was thinking of applying for a license to melt small quantities of cents for artwork casting. (It was more of an exercise in navigating the bureaucracy than a serious art project at the time.)
There were no exemptions for the purpose you mention (unless you have a license). There was no exemption for people who aren't looking to profit off the metal value.
The exemptions for melting were if the inclusion of cents or nickels was incidental to a larger recycling operation. (Such as melting a scrapped car that had loose change under the seat.)
The regulations allow limited amounts of "treatment" of the coins. That means alteration of the coins for jewelry, art projects, etc. (Elongated cents would fall under this category). "Treatment" is separate from "melting".
If the regulations have changed please post a link as I really would like to stay up to date.
I found MANY incorrect summaries of the regulations on various blogs, forums, etc. where the people clearly did not understand the law. I would suggest locating the original regulation and scrutinizing every line of it. Or, just don't advertise your plans.
When you find the hand rolls of dated glued folded ends, they were my mom's penny hoard, I cashed in $30.00 of them.
I wished now I would have wrote "Betty's hoard" on them
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
@JBK That makes sense, but I've seen a lot of stuff about how it's okay to do it for creative uses.
https://atlantagoldandcoin.com/is-it-illegal-to-melt-u-s-coins/#:~:text=It is not illegal to,coins in the United States.
^ This one is just a blog, here's a better source, which is Cornell law.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/82.2
(b) The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the treatment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins shall not apply to the treatment of these coins for educational, amusement, novelty, jewelry, and similar purposes as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment makes it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins.
It's a bit vague though, if you smelt it because you're using the copper in jewelry to sell as jewelry, which benefits from being a metal that's valuable, is that legal? I don't know, but I'm really just making a ring or two for me, some friends, and my wife
@joeykoins I don't mean for this to be conclusive for what you'll find, more just what I've found
I would love if someone else takes the spreadsheet I created to do something similar, we could get a nice dataset across the US and figure out good spots to do it.
I can't wait until I find a box that destroys my averages with a ton of rare pennies, I would love that. But I'm new, at this point it would be unfair to the people doing it for years. The wrath of a roll hunter is one don't want to see, lol.
I saw that blog - it's flat out incorrect. They are misleading people.
Cornell Law is reliable.
Note the word "treatment". It does not specifically include "melting", which is a separate category. My reading is that "treatment" is elongation, encasing, drilling holes to use them for jewelry, gluing to a tabletop, etc.
Your ultimate use would seem to apply, but I am pretty confident the melting step is the barrier.
Having said all this, I would not expect they'd come after you. I just wouldn't try to market them, but you gave no indication of that.
I might restart my effort to get a Treasury license to melt small amounts of copper cents. I'd love to have the license as a collectable. If it goes anywhere I'll post details on the Forum.
Nordland - hopefully you can find some varieties with all the pennies you're going thru. I always like to think that I can at least one in a hundred dollars worth. With location, I'm not referring to know the street you live on, more like State or City. Location in the country helps find certain varieties easier than others. Like a 1984 double ear Lincoln, The original area for distribution was said in NYS.
With living here in Upstate NY, Canadian pennies are all to common but are getting scarer since Canada stopped making them in 2012.
I'm still trying to figure out how two silver quarters ended up in their roll search.
me too
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@JBK @1630Boston I meant wheaties, just went into autopilot and typed that out. 1 1930s penny and 2 1920s pennies.
Am I the only person who saw all the charts and lists and thought "Gee I wish I had that kind of time"...?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I was thinking it was a shame he didn't have a little more time to count the zincolns from the '80's, '90's, 00's, 10's, and '20's. This would be very useful information for me.
I'm going to have sample these soon to see if my prediction that the early dates would evaporate much faster than the later dates because of bad plating has been borne out. I've been dragging my feet because almost every zincoln is stained and ugly even if it were minted last year.
And, if true, how do quarters fit in cent rolls?
At about a 40 degree angle.
Is It Illegal to Melt U.S. Coins?
https://atlantagoldandcoin.com/is-it-illegal-to-melt-u-s-coins/#:~:text=It is not illegal to,coins in the United States.
We've already been down this road. Whoever did the writeup for that site either did not read the law or does not understand it.
To post that as advice on the subject only perpetuates the misinformation.
BTW, that site's claim that it is also illegal to melt gold and silver coins for profit is also wrong. As a matter of fact, the regulations about cents and nickels specifically exempt silver war nickels from the ban on melting.
I was the "older man" about 10 years ago when I dropped off about $500 in nickels, dimes an quarters. Teller pulled out a magnet and started checking my rolls. Being from the Detroit area myself I am sure there were a few in there but not worth the trouble. I stopped her and removed them myself after taking them back home. Took them back in and the next teller never checked. I learned my lesson... go to the next bank location down the street or do this to all the CoinStar Canadian rejects($40.05):
I keep all my Coinstar (or other coin counters) Canadian. I've got a couple hundred dollars worth.
re: copper cents. Assuming you "just want to smelt some of it for fun"...I see three options:
1) Smelt away. No fraud/No foul.
2) Smelt pre-97 Canadian cents. Ottawa is melting cents & .999 nickels by the boatload.
3) Smelt post-64 US quarters. A costlier option to be sure, but practice makes perfect, I suppose.
Weird stuff? I want to know, 8 total?
This just simply isn't true. Pls read the actual law at the Cornell link above.
Cents and nickels (except war nickels) can not be melted with two exceptions:
1). You have a license from the Treasury Department allowing you to melt them.
2). There are some incidental coins mixed in with a larger recycling job and it is not feasible to sort them out.
Those are my words above but they summarize the relevant section on melting.
I understabd that I am beating a dead horse here, but I can't in good conscience allow misinformation that can earn someone a huge fine to be promoted on the forum.
"...(b) The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the treatment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins shall not apply to the treatment of these coins for educational, amusement, novelty, jewelry, and similar purposes as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment makes it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins..."
No fraud / No profit / No foul.
Fire up the furnace.
If you want to avoid any risk of legal problems (which could be expensive even when you are in the right - just ask J.S.G. Boggs - , if he were still alive) seems going with the pre 1997 Canadian cents would be the easiest route.
They do have varying amounts of copper depending on the date from looking at Coinflation.com.
Don't know where to get the exact specs, but here is the Coinflation page showing the different copper values.
https://coinflation.com/canada/
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
You are incorrect in your understanding of the law. Every word in laws or legal documents means something.
There are three separate things addressed in the relevant regulations: exporting, melting, and treatment.
In your interpretation you are conflating the details in the section on "treatment" with the section on "melting".
"Treatment" of coins is not the same as "melting" of coins, hence the separate sections.
"Treatment" means using the actual coins for those purposes listed.
Elongating coins, drilling a hole in a coin to use it for a piece of jewelry, making a cut out coin, gluing coins on a tabletop, or striking over a coin with a new design (DCarr) are some examples of what would constitute "treatment".
Melting a coin constitutes "melting".
(The section on "melting" lists the exemption to that prohibition. If the "treatment" exemptions applied to melting then they would have been listed there along with the other melting exemption. Or, conversely, if "treatment" and "melting" were the same, them all the exemptions could be listed together. But they were not, and for good reason.)
Create one of those examples mentioned above and you have engaged in legal "treatment" of coins.
Melt the coins to make something, and you have earned yourself a $10,000 fine, assuming they chose to prosecute.
Treatments. Let's talk about that. And again, as it relates to the use of say a couple hundred pennies in an art project, or for amusement.
So, in taking the ruling literally, it is permissable to flatten, warp, weld or solder (without melting), burn or scorch (without melting), pulverize, reduce to a fine dust by grinding or cutting, chemically alter or dissolve in acid, vaporize via laser...but...transforming into a tiny globule is somehow off the table?
However, in fairness, - I must consider the following:
"...(f)
(1) The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against exportation, melting, or treatment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins of the United States shall not apply to coins exported, melted, or treated under a written license issued by the Secretary of the Treasury (or designee).
(2) Applications for licenses should be transmitted to the Director, United States Mint, 801 9th Street, NW., Washington, DC 20220..."
Therefore, I will apply to the Director tomorrow for a license to melt up to a maximum of 250 pennies as part of my Hunter Biden tribute in bronze. I promise to post here whatever response is given.*
*assuming I haven't already been hauled off under darkness to some DC gulag.
The law is clear to me. Its a gift/curse that I have an aptitude for this stuff.
This has all inspired me to jumpstart my license effort. I won't get it out tomorrow as I have quite a bit to pack into my letter justifying my activities, but with any luck I'll get it out soon.
Any response (approval or rejection) will be worth keeping as a bit of numismatic ephemera. I hope you'll also keep yours, as years from now few will exist, and I would not be surprised to learn that very few applications were actually ever submitted under these regulations.
Any response (approval or rejection) will be worth keeping as a bit of numismatic ephemera. I hope you'll also keep yours, as years from now few will exist, and I would not be surprised to learn that very few applications were actually ever submitted under these regulations...
Agreed. In the process we will learn something about bureaucracy & red tape.
>
I am sure we will.
That's half the fun for me.
I recall someone here said they applied for permission to buy a post-1933 foreign gold coin during the bad old days of the US gold ban. He was turned down but that would still be a great numismatic souvenir.
I did successfully apply once for a license to travel to Cuba. It's a fun souvenir.
I plan to make some Treasury Department bureaucrat earn their keep.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/82.3
here are the definitions for the law I brought up,
This is clear in saying that treatment includes smelting and heating, therefore it's perfectly fine to melt it. Where did you get your definition with elongating?
Thx for digging that section out. I'll take another look at that section and also in the context of the whole regulation.
Elongated coins fall under the "amusement" and "novelty" exemption and are a "mechanical process". To me, all of the treatment exemptions refer to traditional/familiar alterations of coins (elongated, cutout, coin as jewelry, etc.). Whoever wrote that section knew their coin-related activities.
If straight out melting was allowed, why was it not included in the melting exemption under the melting clause? There are exemptions under export, melting, and treatment. Why? If it was as simple as saying it's OK to do whatever you want as long as you don't profit from it, why are separate specific exemptions listed?
Ultimately you don't need to convince me, you need to convince the federal government. If there is a gray area you think will protect you then feel free to melt all the coins you want.
My license application will be to melt coins for an art project. They will either approve, deny, or tell me it is already legal to do what I want to do. That response will go a long way clarify the regulation and it's exemptions.