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Mary Elizabeth Hart's Coins of the Golden West

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited April 13, 2024 7:40PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Here's a set of the Coins of the Golden West set with it's original copper frame! The frame looks like the copper frame for the PPIE coins.

I had no idea these sets were worth so much!

Mary Elizabeth Gibson Hart exhibited at the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Expo and it's theorized that Farran Zerbe used her name to create this set.

See background at:


Update: Here's a TrueView specimen:

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2022 4:28AM
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2022 5:28AM
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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A most interesting post! I had never heard of Mary E. Hart or the Golden West coin set.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,513 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That name is a first for me ad well

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    that is a lovely way that mary's collection was holdered/displayed!

    and a very nice crop/presenation job for fred's.

    interesting to look at those and picture what those types of items may have been doing in day-to-day commerce.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    pcgscacgoldpcgscacgold Posts: 2,638 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very interesting info @Zoins

    You find the neatest things. I will need to spend some time within the links you provided.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,956 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2022 6:34AM

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    that is a lovely way that mary's collection was holdered/displayed!

    and a very nice crop/presenation job for fred's.

    interesting to look at those and picture what those types of items may have been doing in day-to-day commerce.

    They were never in commerce. They are fantasy coins.

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    edwardjulioedwardjulio Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some Period 1 California Fractionals did, in fact, circulate.

    End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2022 8:30AM

    Here's some more great info on Mary E. Hart by William D. Hyder, Mike Locke, and Dan Owens.

    Mary E. Hart and M. E. Hart’s Coins of the Golden West By William D. Hyder

    In this article, we learn that Mary E. Hart was associated with the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition in addition to the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition.

    William D. Hyder said:
    Almost by chance, one search for Mary E. Hart returned a newspaper article about a Mary E. Hart in southern California working with California’s delegation to the 1893 World’s Columbian Exposition. Intrigued, my casual search in the midst of another research project became an obsession and I quickly learned that she became editor of a women’s literary magazine published in San Francisco and then sold her interest to journey to Alaska near the end of the Klondike gold rush. Mining for gold in Alaska does not make one a token manufacturer, but it seemed too convenient a coincidence to dismiss.

    Will The Real M.E. Hart Please Stand Up?
    Mike Locke and Dan Owens research paper, compiled by Dan Owens.

    Here, Mike and Dan speculate about other possible identities for "M.E. Hart".

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @edwardjulio said:
    Some Period 1 California Fractionals did, in fact, circulate.

    While true, I don't believe that has any bearing on the Hart coins which I believe are all fantasy coins struck in the early 20th century.

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    MarkMark Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins , where and how do you find these absolutely interesting bits of history???

    Mark


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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mark said:
    @Zoins , where and how do you find these absolutely interesting bits of history???

    Thanks!

    I just find coins and history fascinating, enough to search and post :)

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2022 5:03AM

    Regarding Mary's participation in the World's Columbian Exposition, James Miller (J.M.) Guinn, Secretary of the Historical Society of Southern California, indicates that Mary was in charge of their exhibit.

    Source: https://online.ucpress.edu/scq/article-abstract/3/1/88/84387/SECRETARY-S-REPORT-1893

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2022 5:04AM

    William D. Hyder said:
    Mary E. Gibson was born in 1856 and married Frank H. Hart in Moniteau, Missouri on September 17, 1879. The couple was one of two Frank and Mary Harts married in Missouri that year and it makes tracing her history difficult at times. Mary E. Hart proves to be a common name and one must be careful to track the right woman through history.

    In my desire to track down full names, I learned the following from her husband's page on Ancestry.com:

    • her full name is Mary Elizabeth Gibson
    • she was was born in 1861
    • her husband's full name is Frank Hickox Hart

    This seems to be the right Mary E. hart because:

    1. she married Frank H. Hart and Ancestry indicates Frank Hickox Hart was born in Moniteau Co., MO, where Hyder indicates they were married.
    2. her husband Frank died in 1910 in Alaska, presumably around the time she was there if she returned after the 1904 Louisiana Exposition.

    Source: https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/frank-hickox-hart-24-221lmvv

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    yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's her link on familysearch.org (free site, requires free registration):
    https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LVGR-BBZ
    I updated the links for Frank Hickox Hart using the info you showed, and added some more sources.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2022 8:36PM

    @yosclimber said:
    Here's her link on familysearch.org (free site, requires free registration):
    https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LVGR-BBZ
    I updated the links for Frank Hickox Hart using the info you showed, and added some more sources.

    Thanks for the link! I was impressed by all the great info there!

    Of course, there's still work to do to add the Coins of the Golden West!

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2022 10:20PM

    A description of Mary E. Hart's exhibit at the World's Columbian Exposition is here:

    World's Columbian Exposition, Chicago, Ill., 1893, Volume 1

    https://books.google.com/books?id=XgYaAAAAYAAJ

    It's interesting that Wikipedia even has the following page, though I'm not sure if Mary Hart qualifies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_women_artists_exhibited_at_the_1893_World%27s_Columbian_Exposition

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    MarkMark Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here are some comments by a past member who is currently banned (and who I miss):

    As noted, small Gold Jewels Tokens did in fact circulate during the 1850's and perhaps into the late 1870's, they filled a void in the far west where small circulating coinage wasn't very common. The overwhelming majority of tokens struck after the late 1850's were novelty items and never circulated. That brings us to the "Hart's Coins of the West" which were anything but coins. As @jmlanzaf pointed out, they were fantasy tokens struck by Farran Zerbe. Below is a link you can check out. (My comment: This is a really cool link with lots of good pictures!)

    https://www.filmsgraded.com/mehart/hartset.htm

    Something to consider is a little exploration of the Numismatic battle between Farran Zerbe and Thomas Elder. Suffice as to say that Zerbe was a greedy marketer who sucked as much as he could out of the Hobby, he was shameless in his promotions and perverted some of the sales at the 1904 St. Louis Exhibition, took control of "The Numismatist" magazine and the ANA governors board for brief time around the 1910 time period. After that, he moved on to the Panama-Pacific Exposition and did the same thing.

    For all his notoriety, Farran Zerbe was a scourge on the Hobby and concerned only with his own self-interests. A little research back to the late 1890's reveals that many/most of the small Gold Charms and Tokens of the era originated with him in some fashion. It is sad how collectors can be duped, thinking they are coins and that they have a place in Numismatics as circulating in turn-of-the-century commerce. I live in the NEOhio area, Cleveland is where probably all of the "fake" plated copies of this kind of thing originated in the 1960's. When I worked in the coin shop we would see them regularly. In Zerbe's defense, at least the ones he issued were made of Gold.

    Mark

    Mark


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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2022 6:41PM

    @Mark I miss him too!

    One possibility is that Farran and Mary could have collaborated on M.E. Hart Company. Minimally, Farran could have paid Mary for the use of her name and perhaps even some consulting for the Coins of the Golden West. I would not be surprised if some consulting was done given the subject matter.

    Of note, when the 1855 Kellogg slug restrikes were done in 2001, they were inscribed with the name of the California Historical Society, but my understanding is that CHS wasn't involved with the project other than being paid for the use of their name.

    The following is clipping from Brian Koller is interesting:

    So my Panama-California Expo medal is distributed by M.E. Hart Company.

    1916 Panama-California / San Diego Exposition Official Medal - Gilt
    Designer: Clifford Kennedy Berryman
    Engraver: Charles Edward Barber
    Distributor: M.E. Hart Company (Mary E. Hart and/or Farran Zerbe)
    Catalog: HK-431
    Grade: NGC MS65 POP 22/3/0


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    yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,596 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2022 8:41PM

    From:
    https://www.filmsgraded.com/mehart/hartset.htm

    But it is doubtful that Mrs. Mary E. Hart played any direct role in what might have been her namesake token sales firm. For example, the only contemporary mention of the M.E. Hart Co. in the Numismatist was a blurb in the June 1916 issue. By then, Mrs. Mary E. Hart had returned to her beloved Alaska, as reported in this newspaper article.

    Newspaper article:
    https://www.filmsgraded.com/mehart/img/yup.pdf
    This newspaper article (Ogden, Utah dated May 10, 1916) states that Mrs. Mary E Hart

    refuses to return to the states,

    I find this unconvincing.
    Even if was based on something she said at the time, it could simply mean that she would not return south until after the summer.
    In prior years, she routinely travelled back and forth from Alaska to California and Washington, as described in Hyder's detailed article.
    Alaska in the summer, and California in the winter, of course.
    If the M.E. Hart Company was hers, it could still operate while she was in Alaska for the summer.
    Given that the tokens were made in early 1916 or 1915, her location in May 1916 is irrelevant to why/how they were made.

    In my view, it's uncertain if she was involved in the M.E. Hart Company.
    Also uncertain if Farran Zerbe was involved in the M.E. Hart Company.
    We do know he liked to make and sell similar gold tokens, and that the frame was very similar to the 1915 Pan-Pac frame.
    As @Zoins said, both Mary E. Hart and Farran Zerbe could have been involved.
    The evidence is weak; what would be needed to resolve such questions are financial records of the M.E. Hart Company.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's the newspaper article which says she had accumulated a small fortune.


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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2022 11:41PM

    @yosclimber said:
    In my view, it's uncertain if she was involved in the M.E. Hart Company.
    Also uncertain if Farran Zerbe was involved in the M.E. Hart Company.
    We do know he liked to make and sell similar gold tokens, and that the frame was very similar to the 1915 Pan-Pac frame.
    As @Zoins said, both Mary E. Hart and Farran Zerbe could have been involved.
    The evidence is weak; what would be needed to resolve such questions are financial records of the M.E. Hart Company.

    I agree nothing seems really certain here.

    My gut feel is that it seems to make sense that there was some kind of collaboration between the two. They both loved expos and had a long history with them, she had experience in Alaska, he had experience selling coins. I wouldn't be surprised if Mary provided a name associated with Alaska and consulting on coin designs.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2022 12:05AM

    Fred Holabird said:
    M.E. Hart, the original marketer of these beautiful gold tokens (along with Farran Zerbe) is even somewhat of a mystery – speculation exists that it is the person of Mary E. Hart, one of the most prominent and flamboyant businesswomen of the era.

    A brief look at the trajectory of her life puts Mary E. Hart at the epicenter of the Golden West set distribution:

    By 1904, Mary Hart was traveling regularly between San Francisco and Alaska, as well as Los Angeles and Tacoma – a tireless promoter of Alaska, she was the manager of Alaska’s exhibits at the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition in St. Louis, continuing her Alaska promotions into the 1909 Alaska-Yukon-Pacific Exposition. She also had family connections with Mayer and Brothers Jewelers, makers of the Alaska-Yukon tokens, and was active in marketing all the Golden West issues at the 1916 Panama-Pacific International Exposition. While there is no “smoking gun” indicating that Mary E. Hart was responsible for producing the “Coins of Golden West”, ancillary evidence strongly suggests that she was in the thick of it. With her interest in the gold industry (and an impressive collection of Alaska gold nuggets), she is a natural fit for the persona of “M.E. Hart”, the original promoter of these fascinating private gold issues.

    Marketed at the above Expositions from 1904 to 1916, the set makes an impressive visual, 36 pieces of privately minted, golden art!

    https://www.icollector.com/Outstanding-Harts-Coins-of-the-West-Set_i29369875

    This information from Fred indicates that Mary was a tireless promoter of Alaska which would seem aligned with the Alaska theme of the set.

    Meanwhile, Zerbe was founding / promoting the PCNS which didn't cover Alaska but did cover the other states in the set.

    So I think it's plausible it was some kind of partnership. Hopefully new information will surface some time. To some extent, they both seem to be big promoters.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2022 12:26AM

    A very interesting thing from Fred Holabird's description above is that the Coins of the Golden West was:

    Marketed at the above Expositions from 1904 to 1916, the set makes an impressive visual, 36 pieces of privately minted, golden art!

    Regarding the dates 1904 and 1916:

    • When sales of the set started in 1904, Dick Hanscom writes that Mary E. Hart was the hostess of the US Congress authorized Alaskan Exhibit at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition in his article "ALASKA AT THE FAIR, 1904" which was published the August-September 1992 issue of the POLAR NUMISMATIST in Fairbanks, Alaska.
    • When sales of the set ended in 1916, the Ogden Standard newspaper clipping indicates that Mary returned to Alaska.

    Coincidence?

    Mary passed away in 1921 while Zerbe lived until 1949.

    If Zerbe was the primary driver behind this set, did he have some reason to stop? Did he attend the 1926 Sesquicentennial Expo or any others? Even after he donated his collection to Chase National Bank in 1928, he retained permission to take coins to exhibit at events.

    Here's an excerpt from Hanscom's article:

    https://archive.org/stream/alaskantokencoll1992alas/alaskantokencoll1992alas_djvu.txt

    Dick Hanscom wrote:
    ALASKA AT THE FAIR, 1904

    When you mention ’’the Expo" to an Alaskana collector, the Alaska-Yukon-Pacific Exposition, held in Seattle in 1909, is what comes to mind. But Alaska participated in a National Exhibition for the first time at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition.

    The Louisiana Purchase Exposition of 1904 was held to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the Purchase. The Louisiana Purchase was considered at the time the "second in importance in the nation’s development only to the American revolution." All states and territories participated in this Exposition, including the District of Alaska.

    An "Appropriation for the Alaskan Exhibit at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition" was authorized by an Act of Congress dated March 3, 1903: "District of Alaska Exhibit: To enable the inhabitants of the District of Alaska to provide and maintain an appropriate and creditable exhibit of the products and resources of that District at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition in the city of Saint Louis, Missouri, in nineteen hundred and four, and a suitable building to be used for the purpose of exhibiting the products and resources of said District, the sum of fifty thousand dollars, to be subject to the order of the Secretary of the Interior, who is hereby authorized to expend the same in such manner as his judgement will best promote the objects for which said sum is appropriated,^in accordance with the rules and regulations to be prescribed by him."

    Thomas Ryan, First Assistant Secretary of the Interior and Chairman of the Alaska Commission, was appointed to have charge at the Department "of the elaboration" of the exhibit. Governor John G. Brady was named Executive Commissioner, and given the task of gathering materials for the exhibits. Honorary Commissioners were the mayors of Ketchikan, Juneau, Valdez, Eagle City, Treadwell, Wrangell, Douglas, Skagway, Nome, and an ex-mayor of Nome.

    The hostess for the Exhibit was Mrs. Mary E. Hart. She and the attendants at the Exhibit were all Alaskans, selected because of their knowledge of Alaska and its products.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's another interesting question, if the Coins of the Golden West was marketed from 1904 to 1916 and the PPIE set was sold in 1915, which set used the copper frame first and when?

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    yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,596 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2022 2:25AM

    According to your source
    https://www.icollector.com/Outstanding-Harts-Coins-of-the-West-Set_i29369875
    Fred Holabird was quoted only in the second half of this page.

    The quote you used:

    Marketed at the above Expositions from 1904 to 1916, the set makes an impressive visual, 36 pieces of privately minted, golden art!

    Occurs before the second half, so I don't think Fred wrote that.

    And I believe the concept that the set was marketed starting in 1904 conflicts with this quote from Hyder:

    Jeff and I had confirmed that Charbneau designed and sold the 1909 Alaska-Yukon-Pacific Exposition small gold medals included in Hart’s set usually referred to as the “Coins of the Golden West.”

    1909 is after 1904, and the AYPE tokens have 1909 and A.Y.P.E. on them.

    I haven't seen detailed info on when this set was sold, but I have assumed it was in 1915 and 1916,
    especially since the frame was a close match to the 1915 Pan-Pac frame.
    The address for M.E. Hart in Hyder's article mentions the years 1915 and 1916 only.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2022 2:29AM

    @yosclimber said:
    According to your source
    https://www.icollector.com/Outstanding-Harts-Coins-of-the-West-Set_i29369875
    Fred Holabird was quoted only in the second half of this page.

    The quote you used:

    Marketed at the above Expositions from 1904 to 1916, the set makes an impressive visual, 36 pieces of privately minted, golden art!

    Occurs before the second half, so I don't think Fred wrote that.

    The source I used is the lot description by Holabird Western Americana Collections LLC, Fred Holabird's company :)

    Do you know if Fred has someone else write his lot descriptions?

    @yosclimber said:
    And I believe the concept that the set was marketed starting in 1904 conflicts with this quote from Hyder:

    Jeff and I had confirmed that Charbneau designed and sold the 1909 Alaska-Yukon-Pacific Exposition small gold medals included in Hart’s set usually referred to as the “Coins of the Golden West.”

    1909 is after 1904, and the AYPE tokens have 1909 and A.Y.P.E. on them.

    I haven't seen detailed info on when this set was sold, but I have assumed it was in 1915 and 1916,
    especially since the frame was a close match to the 1915 Pan-Pac frame.

    Good info. I haven't seen when the sets were sold yet either and was going by Fred's (company's) lot description. It would be useful to nail that down.

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    yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe he wrote the whole page, but why is his name not cited until halfway down the page?

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2022 2:56AM

    @yosclimber said:
    Maybe he wrote the whole page, but why is his name not cited until halfway down the page?

    It could be because the lot description is from a 2018 auction but he's quoting something written in 2013.

    Saying something like "The following was written by me in 2013" also sounds a bit odd.

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    KtpKtp Posts: 68 ✭✭

    It is for sale on eBay for 145k now

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    thebeavthebeav Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful set.....
    Just another great item that I'll never own. I would have had that on the wall next to the fractional currency shield that I'll never own.
    A buck forty-five seems a little excessive. Sixty might not surprise me though. That's a scarce item.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,438 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These are not coins. At best they are fantasy tokens and they are grossly overpriced. Pass.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    KtpKtp Posts: 68 ✭✭

    It does seem way over priced. That is why it hasn’t sold. I personally like the designs. The concept of drumming up sales, shilling, etc… doesn’t seem much different than what the mint does with modern issues and what they and speculators l did with 50 cent commemoratives back in the day. Based on what I have readyamyway. I see people shill those 2022 Morgan’s all the time on tv. I have no interest in those and the premiums. My wife thinks all coins are over priced and ridiculous. Her money is better spent on furniture.

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    These are not coins. At best they are fantasy tokens and they are grossly overpriced. Pass.

    .
    so averaging it out, give or take, $1k per coin from that sales result.

    calling them California Fracs seems fraudulent.

    they were issued at the Pan Pac per the info i've came across.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12210314#Comment_12210314

    i'm usually up for a good analysis/research effort. so lets say why we think these are or are not worth what they sold for and what we based it on. if we are going to do this somewhat responsibly.

    they are just tokens and there are "plenty" of fracs and other private issues made by popular and desirable private companies.

    technically, that is all that the "usa" gold coins with "cal" or wass moliter etc are, right; tokens, since they were not officially issued by the us government, thus, not legal tender? so if these are proved to have an accurate value at this price range, then their much more desirable counterparts (legit) are only that much more so,no? not an attack on any type here but in order to asses what they are or are not, comparing to similar items before, during and after they were made, seems like would be a good place to start?

    are they actually gold and what percent?

    while the pan pac is beyond question, important and extremely popular across all collectable areas, are these really going to hold up at this value and perhaps slowly go up or are these people holders for future value plummets?

    despite the interesting time we are in for sales results, does anyone have some decent input why they think these are or are not worth of a $1k per coin valuation? let alone 4x that based on the ebay listing?

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2022 11:01AM

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @PerryHall said:
    These are not coins. At best they are fantasy tokens and they are grossly overpriced. Pass.

    so averaging it out, give or take, $1k per coin from that sales result.

    calling them California Fracs seems fraudulent.

    they were issued at the Pan Pac per the info i've came across.

    Are they any less than the "fracs" than the "Period 3" fractionals, or are they Period 3 fractionals?

    ATS said:

    Period 3 Issues

    Period Three coins are the most mysterious of all, as they were all backdated by their makers in an effort to avoid prosecution. Though operating on shaky legal ground, the United States Secret Service had launched a crackdown on the manufacture and sale of fractional gold coins, claiming that these pieces violated the federal government’s exclusive right to coin money. The small gold pieces from this era were thus given earlier dates to obscure their actual year of manufacture. Only a small number of issues were produced during this period, which lasted from 1883 until sometime early in the 20th Century, when such items passed from the public’s fancy.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    while the pan pac is beyond question, important and extremely popular across all collectable areas, are these really going to hold up at this value and perhaps slowly go up or are these people holders for future value plummets?

    Before Hansen and Covid, it seems the vast majority of US coins were going down in value.

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    MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    JMHO, There seems to be quite a bit of speculation about the true identity of M.E. Hart and any involvement she may have had with this set. There is one piece of history which is clear, at least to me: Farran Zerby, for all the good he did for Numismatics, was a bit of a shady character at worst and a shameless self-promoter at best. He seemed greed driven which is the genesis of the feud between him and Elder. I also find it peculiar that Mary E. Hart is on record in print refusing to return to lower 48. That's strange. It's also strange that everywhere she's mentioned it seems to be Mrs. Mary E. Hart, she had at least some notoriety and also some wealth. Why wouldn't she take advantage of that if she was starting some sort of company?? Why suddenly start to use only her initials to provide anonymity??

    Like the old saying about ducks, how they walk and talk, this scheme was probably a duck and Farran Zerbe was the Pied Piper with the duck call in his mouth. B)

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2022 1:35PM

    @Maywood said:
    JMHO, There seems to be quite a bit of speculation about the true identity of M.E. Hart and any involvement she may have had with this set. There is one piece of history which is clear, at least to me: Farran Zerby, for all the good he did for Numismatics, was a bit of a shady character at worst and a shameless self-promoter at best. He seemed greed driven which is the genesis of the feud between him and Elder. I also find it peculiar that Mary E. Hart is on record in print refusing to return to lower 48. That's strange. It's also strange that everywhere she's mentioned it seems to be Mrs. Mary E. Hart, she had at least some notoriety and also some wealth. Why wouldn't she take advantage of that if she was starting some sort of company?? Why suddenly start to use only her initials to provide anonymity??

    Like the old saying about ducks, how they walk and talk, this scheme was probably a duck and Farran Zerbe was the Pied Piper with the duck call in his mouth. B)

    I know there's speculation of Zerbe's involvement, but what part is clear? Are there any records of his involvement?

    I don't know why the initials could have been used, but she wasn't in the coin business before, so while she did have some fame, this new venture is in a slightly different area and could be a reason for using the initials.

    I'm not saying this is any more or less likely than Zerbe being involved. I just haven't seen anything beyond speculation and coincidence.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2022 1:05PM

    Looks like Mary Elizabeth Gibson Hart did return to the lower 48. This may have been due to a deterioration in heath as she committed suicide in Los Angeles due to ill health.

    Brenda Joyce wrote in Los Angeles Herald on March 10, 1921:
    ARRANGING FUNERAL FOR WOMAN MINER

    Arrangements were being completed today for the funeral of Mrs. Mary E. Hart, Alaskan gold miner, newspaper woman and lecturer, who ended her life yesterday by turning on the gas while a guest at the home of Miss Leonora King, 3418 North Broadway. She left no note of explanation, but was despondent because of ill health. Besides a mother, who is living in the East, Mrs. Hart, who was a widow, is survived by a brother, Dr. E.R. Gibson, 418 Hollister street, Ocean Park, and a son, Eugene Hart, Cape Girardeau, Mo. the body was removed to the chapel of the Los Angeles Undertaking Co.

    Ref: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/69136505/mary-elizabeth-hart

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2022 1:45PM

    It might be interesting to see close ups of each of these. Here's one to start (also added to OP).

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2022 2:00PM

    @Zoins said:
    It might be interesting to see close ups of each of these. Here's one to start (also added to OP).

    a big step in the right direction, imo, to establishing long-term value to these items.

    the coinfacts info leads to prior sales results, establishing individual piece valuations where people have had time to research, grade, auction off etc and from just 2 results, for this one piece, years ago, we get $400-600 essentially. so perhaps $1k each, these days is a bargain, all things being equal.

    so it seems, the number at the end of the CF link, is indeed, the pcgs coin number. a couple pop page searches, and this is where the above is found:

    https://www.pcgs.com/pop/detail/misc-medallic-token-fantasy-coinage/157644

    with 570585 being the pcgs coin number. doing a page search by that number makes is significantly quicker/easier to find.

    edited to add:

    does anyone see the indian token with the TV in this image? indian facing right, one pinch rev, octagonal.

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/vf/lclq9tj77y3c.jpg

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2022 2:05PM

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    does anyone see the indian token with the TV in this image? indian facing right, one pinch rev, octagonal.

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/vf/lclq9tj77y3c.jpg

    Wow! Great catch! I don't see it! This is very interesting!

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @Mark said:
    @Zoins , where and how do you find these absolutely interesting bits of history???

    Thanks!

    I just find coins and history fascinating, enough to search and post :)

    👍

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2022 2:53PM

    @Ktp said:
    It is for sale on eBay for 145k now

    Nice to know this is now pedigreed to Jeffrey Behan of Premier Rare Coins. Good to trace pedigree for these rare items!

    Jeffrey Behan said:
    Our History

    Years ago I imagine a company where anyone with love for rare coins can easily find what they wanted. So I decided to open a company and share their interest of numismatics with like minded people. This is how Premier Rare Coins, LLC was born. Today, we have expanded past numismatics to gold and silver, rare artifacts, collectable, shipwreck, monthly subscriptions, and more.

    At Premier Rare Coins we strive to be the best in the industry. Call today and become part of the family. If you have dealt with other coin companies I know you will see and experience the difference and the advantages of being a client of Premier Rare Coins.

    Sincerely,
    Jeffrey Behan (561) 797-6164, CEO

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    .
    ok. i found another one on the pcgs pop page NOT in the purple image above but the image where they are all cropped together seems to have some different ones as well so i'm not sure what comprises a full set. can't say i have enough vested interest to do it myself but it would PROBABLY be a simple but time-consuming project.

    the ngc pops may need checked too since the big non purple image seems to have them all in that type of pronged holder?

    all the links you've provided would be a fantastic start for someone wanting to untangle all of this. :+1:

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Options
    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @Zoins said:

    .
    ok. i found another one on the pcgs pop page NOT in the purple image above but the image where they are all cropped together seems to have some different ones as well so i'm not sure what comprises a full set. can't say i have enough vested interest to do it myself but it would PROBABLY be a simple but time-consuming project.

    the ngc pops may need checked too since the big non purple image seems to have them all in that type of pronged holder?

    all the links you've provided would be a fantastic start for someone wanting to untangle all of this. :+1:

    Lots of searching to do :+1:

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2022 2:05AM

    Here's a Montana type that looks like it's part of the set.

    Although PCGS lists these as the same coin type, they look like different dies. On the reverse, the first waterfall is much steeper on one than another.


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    dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Here's a Montana type that looks like it's part of the set.

    Although PCGS lists these as the same coin type, they look like different dies. On the reverse, the first waterfall is much steeper on one than another.


    Interesting ...
    The obverse dies are also different.

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