I guess it's kind of metal porn? When something strange comes into a local shop.
Weiss
Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
Older couple selling their late father's "trophy" coins he brought back from WWII.
They were just wrapping up business and had a small box they were tucking under their arm.
Those who see my posts know I dabble in lots of stuff. So the dealer says "Even though I wasn't interested, here's a guy who may be." And asked the couple to show me what they had.
They carefully opened the box and handed the item to me.
This is one of those areas that I'm vaguely aware of, know there can be value, but also know it can be a little tricky to resell. And there is a significant moral decision you have to make: Is it something I feel comfortable buying?
Brought out my loop, gave it a thorough once-over. Noted condition and wear all looked reasonable and authentic. Noted that weight and balance--the general feel--seemed correct. I was reasonably sure it was real. But had only the most vague idea of value.
So I thought for a second and made an offer. Their mouths hit the floor (Note to self: Lowball your first offer, you can always go up but you can't come down!). They cheerfully accepted and took my cash.
Would you or would you not?
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Again, I had a vague idea of what it was. But now I know for certain that it is:
Early 1st Model Luftwaffe Dagger by Ernst Pack & Sohne Waffenfabrik of Solingen
--Severian the Lame
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I bought some of those bills at a local b&m for my son to use in a school presentation. No problem buying them for historical (not ideological) purposes...
Yeah, I've got a few of those bills, too
--Severian the Lame
Very cool. Is the chain & clasp sterling? What is stamped on it?
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I noticed you DIDN'T figure in resale logistical issues...reading between the lines thats a keeper.
Bet your wallet chewed you out a bit when you got home.
Interesting buy for war history, despite the association.
That is a great historical item. The significance does not bother me... History is real, it happened, we should learn from it and avoid repeating the bad things. Items such as this serve as reminders. Cheers, RickO
The clasp and hanging chain are actually made from a new miracle metal of the early 20th century: Aluminum.
--Severian the Lame
Neat item. Any ideas on value on and item like that?
Collector
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Beyond sickening, send it to the smelter. Double sad that you had in mind to "lowball" the seller on top (assuming you were interested for your twisted resell profit}
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
That's an interesting position and one I genuinely appreciate.
I was talking with a friend about the dagger this afternoon and he, a non-numismatist, asked me, who he knows to be a coin collector, if people collect confederate money.
I told him that confederate currency is quite popular. And that the few confederate coins that exist are considered some of the most treasured coins there are. One could argue that is apples to oranges. But one could argue it's apples to apples, too.
Only four confederate half dollars are known to exist. This specimen sold in 2015 for $881,250.
--Severian the Lame
I haven't kept up on those daggers price wise but they are one of the most coveted mass production German items from WW2.
And one of the most reproduced.
OY VEY !
Nice attitude🙄
Great piece. I've never really collected the dress daggers, just field equipment pieces. They add to displays really well without the large symbols that seem to offend people.
Do you think Germans collect US Army items? I've been there twice over my years in the service and the topic never came up.
The spoils always go to the winners.
@streeter.... That is very true. And when you are a just winner, it is not called plundering.
Cheers, RickO
I do not collect Nazi memorabilia, although I have collected a train token used at Peenemunde, the site where the V-2 rocket was created. As you might imagine, there was also a slave labor camp associated with Peenemunde.
Personally I think the morality of collecting items is based on one's own personal morality, e.g. are you collecting Nazi items because you believe in some variant of the Nazi ideology, or are you collecting a historical relic that highlights a piece of history. Let's not forget Marxist-Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist communist items either, those ideologies were totalitarian killers too. Also, in the US we have our own sad history with genocide with the Native Americans, and slavery with blacks. I would say if you get MULTIPLE items associated with bad regimes/actors you might want to take a hard look at yourself in the mirror.
One thing that I have heard tell with regards to Nazi era collectibles is that they are so popular that there is a serious amount of counterfeit production.
U.S. Type Set
This dagger is not so much considered by most collectors to be "Nazi memorabilia" as it's considered to be a "war trophy" which was captured by an American soldier serving in Europe during WWII. My father brought back a Japanese sword from his service in WWII. You are quite correct that these daggers are heavily counterfeited.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Good points, all.
I've been in contact with three of the top WWII militaria dealers in the country and two of them have made pretty substantial offers on the dagger.
@SkyMan 's point about intent carries a lot of weight. I still haven't decided if I'm going to keep it.
Interestingly, the couple I bought it from insisted that "dad took this off the body of a dead officer". A point they made sure of telling me twice in the 10 minute transaction. As with precious metals, when something doesn't ring true, I tend to question it.
What was a dead luftwaffe (air force) officer doing in a combat situation? Why was an officer in a combat situation wearing his dress uniform complete with this ceremonial dagger?
I relayed the story to one of the dealers I spoke with, because it was part of the story of the piece but also because the couple from whom I purchased the knife seemed to be of the correct age (late 60s?) and the other pieces they were selling were completely typical types of francs, marks, and minors that every GI serving in the European theater seemed to bring home. And all of that seemed to indicate the piece had been in their family since the war and was therefore new to the market--something that appeals to some buyers of coins. I also offered that this kind of story must be common, and asked their opinion.
Their response was interesting:
Yes, I hear that phrase that "it came off a dead soldier" a million times. I guess vets like the sound of that or something. These daggers were not worn during the war, and most came from German houses searched at war's end for weapons, but be that as it may. At least the dagger made it back to America.
So they are implying that this type of story is a rationalization for what was essentially looting by our guys as the war drew to a close. No judgement. But I could see how the "dead officer" story would smooth over questions and give a reason why uncle Mike had a nazi dress dagger when he worked in Supply Corps.
--Severian the Lame
Stories often accompany old family possessions.... Some may be true, some maybe not.... No way to be sure. I do agree that the 'dead officer' story... in full regalia, at a battle scene, is highly unlikely. Cheers, RickO
I have a friend who’s grandfather was an SS officer. He still has the dagger that belonged to his grandfather. One day he brought it by the shop to show me and allowed me to take these pictures.
Very interesting piece of WWII history and I can only assume that it’s pretty valuable.
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From my googling, it's a type 1Chained SS Dagger. Value? $8k or more.
--Severian the Lame
@asheland... That is a beauty... I have only seen one other like that, years ago at a gun show in Arizona. And it was not in as good a condition as that is. Cheers, RickO
Damn! 😦
I’ll definitely mention this to my friend. I assume he still has it. I took the pictures about 4 years ago.
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Weiss
Whatever you do, don't post your buy/sell. BlitzGutter will be like an old wife and drag it up forever and call you unmentionable names.