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When is a So-Called Dollar not a So-Called Dollar?
Zoins
Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
So I just picked up these great HK-unlisted exposition medals for events covered by the Hibler & Kappen book. Thanks Stef @coinsarefun!
They meet all the rules but aren't included.
The rules:
This present work is restricted to medals of an exposition, commemorative, monetary and kindred nature. ...From the beginning, however, it was necessary to establish the following specific limitations in order to contain our efforts within a manageable perimeter:
- United States only.
- Minimum diameter - Size 21 (1-5/16 inch or 33mm).
- Maximum diameter - Size 28 (1-3/4 inch or 45mm); but silver Bryan Dollars are listed.
- No holed or looped material unless struck plain also. Our Nos. 1 to HK-3 are the sole exceptions.
- No plastic, fiber or similar material unless issued also in one or more metals.
- No purely presidential or political medals.
- No school, college or athletic medals; no coin club or U.S. Armed Forces medals.
- No calendar or store cards; no trade tokens or emergency money.
So why aren't they included? Is it because they say "Penny" on them?
So, are these So-Called Dollars, or dollar-sized So-Called Pennies? 
1915 Panama-Pacific International Exposition - San Francisco - Souvenir Penny
1915 Panama-California Exposition - San Diego - Souvenir Penny
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I would say because they are denominated as something other than a dollar, in this case "penny."
So called dollars is a form of thematic collecting. One who establishes the thematic rules, controls the thematic series.
Create an addendum to update the so called dollar thematic rules or establish a new thematic series.
My 2022 NMS presentation made a play to establish the thematic rules for POTUS numismatic artifacts manufactered by the US Mint and gifted by a sitting POTUS.
I can post a few presentation slides if you want....
20+ years ago, I asked a similar question. The best answer that I received was the the Hibler-Kappen reference (1963) was thoroughly researched and that all items included were considered the only true so-called dollars.
Fast forward a few years and several researchers (most members of this forum) wrote the updated reference on the subject, and that book includes some new discoveries. Perhaps you can present your case to the authors for inclusion in the next edition?
Btw, as you already know, there's a thing called "so-called HALF dollars," so maybe we can start a new database of "so-called pennies"
How about an undated, nondenominational, commemorative copper . . . .
Oh wait, this one's already a "dolla" . . . .
Z
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Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, . . . . who'd I forget?
I talked to some people at the last So-Called Dollar Fellowship Gathering. The thought was that the HK reference included what they knew about but they didn't know about many things at the time which weren't included, but would have been. They put out a request for people to send them things they knew about so it's certainly probable that many pieces weren't sent in.
Good idea! I’ll ask and see what the thoughts are.
Yes, HK actually lists over 30 pieces that are undersized at 32mm. I list these in the thread on:
Hibler and Kappen So-Called Half Dollars
So-Called Pennies could be interesting!
In addition to Souvenir Pennies, 13mm gold dollar sized Lord's Prayer medalettes seem to be another that qualifies but isn't generally included.
Here are two of mine:
1901 Pan American Exposition Electric Tower Lord's Prayer Medalette
Composition: Silver
Event: 1901 Pan-American Exposition, Buffalo, NY
Issuer: George Bache Soley
The 1901 Pan-American Expo is listed in HK from HK-287 to HK-291.
1893 Trenton Battle Monument (George Washington) Lord's Prayer Medalette
Event: 1893 Battle of Trenton Monument
Issuer: George Bache Soley(?)
The 1893 Battle of Trenton Monument is listed in HK as HK-127/128.
https://www.so-calleddollars.com/Events/Revolutionary_War_Battles.html
When is a So-Called Dollar not a So-Called Dollar?
HK-8 and HK-8a, when the subject medals were actually struck for the original Crystal Palace and everyone seems to know that, even though it's one of the prettiest medal designs in the catalogue.
How about a so-called large penny.
Ok all kidding aside....
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
How about this one?
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43) Grand Lodge Reunion / Los Angeles / California 1915 / B.P.O. Elks / One Buck. Appears to me to be similar in style to HK-432. Copper, 38.4mm.
.Listed here under Fraternal........and goes really nicely with @Zoins 2
https://www.socalleddollar.com/FRAT.html.
Fairly proof like as well.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
If you find a medal, like it, decide to own it and it isn't listed with an HK number why does it matter?? Also, the presumption with medals such as those listed by the OP is always that they are new discoveries, meet the outlined criteria and should be included. Mssrs. Hibler and Kappen did exhaustive research, far beyond what has been done since, so it is just as likely that they were aware of these medals but didn't include them for some reason.
To my way of thinking a medal which might be considered for inclusion, to date unlisted, would be a design that is already listed but is struck in a previously unknown alloy or a medal with an already listed obverse/reverse which is "muled" with something different. Of course there are exceptions but that's my general rule. Past that, if I see something I like it doesn't matter if it's a listed SC$ which prompts me to be interested.
For me, it's about having So-Called Dollars be a living hobby. It's just fun to chat, hypothesize, and discuss.
It's a wonderful discussion to have with people such as Jeff Shevlin, Bill Hyder, John Raymond, and others. All are cataloging new So-Called Dollars that are not in HK.
We really don't know why Hibler and Kappen didn't include some pieces so I agree it can be because they didn't see the pieces or did see them but didn't include them. But since we don't know, it doesn't really matter going forward. Of note, in discussion with some of the Fellowship members, the thought has been that Hibler and Kappen likely didn't see many of the pieces that are being added now. For example, a series that seems important, and is added in Jeff and Bill's reference, is the U.S. Centennial "See How We Prosper" medals by Rudolf Laubenheimer.
Regarding the specific Souvenir Pennies in the OP, the goal is to have a discussion, which can be valuable, enlightening, and fun. I find @CaptHenway's response to be perfectly acceptable on why Souvenir Pennies weren't included, even though they seem to meet all the explicit criteria.
This is certainly a valid approach and is the approach for the "New Discoveries" section of H&K:
https://so-calleddollars.com/New_Discoveries.html
But it's nice to expand as well as with work being done by others.
Let's ask @JRay123
Hi All, I just recently purchased an extremely rare so-called dollar. In fact I haven’t even received it yet in the mail. It is an HK-7A and since it is the plate coin I will include pictures from the So Called Dollars Book. I welcome all comments on this piece especially from @Zoins who is very knowledgeable on this series.
yep, that's a tough one to find, have only seen one other for sale in about 10 years. Nice find, great quality if that indeed is the coin you received.
Yes, @WorldMedalMan that is indeed the coin that I received.