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Learning about medieval coins
Orlena
Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
I have been buying modern coins from the RM for several years and it has peaked my interest in medieval era coins - maybe something a bit more affordable like groats and half groats. Can anyone suggest a book or website to help me learn more about the subject? I’m starting from the bottom as far as my knowledge base, so anything helps. Thanks
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Do you have a time period and region in mind?
You mention groats, which would be British from Edward I onwards (1280+), but 'medieval' can mean anytime between 500 and 1500. In Britain, that covers the early Saxons, late Saxons, Normans etc through to the Wars of the Roses. Different parts of Europe have similarly varied histories and so coinage e.g. Byzantine folles, Crusader deniers, Spanish pieces of eight etc.
Thanks for the input. I’m thinking Great Britain starting about Tudor dynasty Henry VII. I picked that thinking a fair amount of coins were produced and available, plus the history is well documented.
Any and all suggestions are appreciated- just getting started. My family history has British roots
Henry VII onward would be considered early modern (at least in the UK - elsewhere it could be considered late medieval), but these coins are certainly collectible. I use Spink for my main reference book, although the values quoted would be for British grading rather than US grading. Someone, however, may be able to suggest a better Tudor specific text. Predecimal.com has a forum for pre 1663 British coins - http://www.predecimal.com/forum/forum/60-british-hammered/
Ok yes. Henry VII is a great place to start. The Tudors are technically 'modern' but with coins you can probably stretch 'medieval' to the end of hammered coinage under Charles II in the 1660s.
There are a lot of coins that are readily available (and not hugely expensive) from King John (1199-1216), Henry III, Edwards I-III, Richard II and Henry V (Henry IV less so), although they are mostly pennies and halfpennies and all look the same. You can get most of these for £20-£100, or a little more for really good examples. This website is really good for identifying many of these coins (and you'll see quite how similar they all are) https://www.rodblunt.com. Look under 'Coins and Jetons' to pick an era and then 'Classification' to see all the variants, but there's a lot of background information too.
Henry VI and Edward IV (the main protagonists in the Wars of the Roses) are good because although their coins also look much the same, you can get some nice, big groats and halfgroats for £100-200. There aren't any websites I've seen dedicated to those but as Bjorn says, Spink is a good reference, although it covers so many eras it doesn't go into detail https://www.amazon.co.uk/Coins-England-United-Kingdom-2022/dp/1912667703
Edward V and Richard III are perhaps the most expensive medieval kings (whose coins still look like all the rest), but when you get to Henry VII, the coinage gets more varied - some of the portraits are more interesting (although those cost more) and there are cheaper 'Sovereign' issues (pennies issued by archbishops). Henry VIII's coins (and those of Mary and Elizabeth I) are even more characterful, but prices increase from there. You can search coins by monarch here https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?ct=coin&ru=505
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Great info- I downloaded one of the books as a start and am looking at a couple purchases. It’s kind of amazing to me to get a 800 year old piece of history for such a relatively low price.
It sounds like you're interested in British medieval. A popular field with many cool coins. It's my main area of interest. There are many great books on the subject, and they are in the English language, which makes researching coins easier, than say French medieval coins, another interest of mine.
Start with the Spink catalog and consider adding JJ North's "English Hammered Coins" volumes 1 & 2.
If you want to learn about early medieval coins (pre-1066) then you'll want Naismith's Medieval European Coinage volume 8. But it's an expensive reference..
I started with early medieval then moved to the 'one of each monarch' and now am mostly back to early medieval again, though I like the Tudor coins too. Here are a few Tudor pieces of Henry VII, Henry VIII, Edward VI, Mary I, and Elizabeth I.
King Henry VII marks the boundary between medieval and modern for the British.
Old type 4 pence (groat)
New type groat
Thank you Nap and Billjones for the great pics. That is what peaked my interest a few months ago. I bought the new Spinks in an ebook format on Amazon and wow - what a collection of info. Do you guys buy from US dealers or do you find most from UK dealers? I have seen a few groats and half groats from a dealer I like in the Northwest, but not too much else.
Someone from the silver forum UK suggested I attend a London coin fair to really get rolling. Thanks again
I'm in the UK so I get more from the UK. But UK dealers and auctions offer a much greater range and tend to specialise. So if you want something particular from someone who's more likely to get the attribution right, they're the better bet. That would be auctions like DNW and Spink, and dealers like Silbury Coins, Halls Hammered Coins, Hammered British Coins, AG & S Gillis and Galata. Sovereign Rarities if you have deeper pockets.
You can get them in the US, but most dealers only have a handful. CNG auctions always have some: https://auctions.cngcoins.com. I've bought a few groats from them recently, like this one:
Henry VI Rosette-Mascle Groat, 1430-1431
Calais. Silver, 26mm, 3.82g. (S 1859). Ex Ken Bressett; Cambridge Hoard 2001.
Going to a coin fair is obviously great if it’s convenient. I’ve heard you won’t see many medieval British coins at a fair in the US, but you can find out which dealers are going.
I am an American and I do most of my buying from British dealers and auction houses
I buy almost exclusively from U.S. dealers. I tried having a couple pieces shipped from London, and the charges just kept getting higher and higher. I got hit with taxes I didn’t think I should be paying. Wire transfer costs, getting hit with foreign exchange rate hassles and an unexpected VAT charge ruined the experience. I didn’t think antiques were taxed. We are talking about 800 to 1,000 year old coins.
So the answer is no. I won’t buy from overseas again. It’s harder to find stuff, but the overhead costs ruined the experience. If I can meet a UK dealer here, I will buy from them. Otherwise no.
I have no idea how it works for you, @Nap.
This is a good point. I certainly have these problems the other way around.
Whether you pay sales tax depends on your state, although of course this applies in the US too https://www.ha.com/information/state-sales-tax-info.s. You shouldn’t pay UK VAT on top. In some cases, such as through eBay, the rules are applied in a blanket way that might mean you get charged when you shouldn’t.
Before you buy, you should ask the dealer/auction house what they charge, and look at their terms and conditions. Who they ship through is important - some of the big couriers charge big extra fees for 'processing'. I'd also ask them how they describe the coin on the customs form, as if it isn't correct or clear, US Customs might pick it up and you might be liable for a handling fee even if zero tax is collected.
I've found most dealers just take credit cards without charging fees. Auction houses less so, so I use Wise (TransferWise) - I have not had to pay any transfer fees to any overseas auction house and the exchange rate is usually very good.
So although it sounds complicated, once you buy with a dealer or auction house, you know what you’re going to be charged (or how to avoid it). Otherwise, only buying from US dealers could be very limiting, and you might find every coin is slabbed, which will make them more expensive anyway.
Thank you for your response @JohnConduitt.
My goal has been to collect at least one coin from each king and queen. I set the date back to Alfred the Great. I have all of the kings and queens from Ethelred "the Unready" to Queen Elizabeth II, less Matilda. I took the bid to $14,000 plus the buyers fee for one of those coins and didn't get it. I am lacking four pieces before that, and if I never get them, so it goes. In past couple of years, the London dealers had nothing for sale via private treaty that could help me. It seems like the pandemic dried up the market.
Auctions drive me crazy. I hold the record for paying the highest price for a given coin in a give grade for more items that I would like to name. I am also very often the underbidder. I imagine it would be worse if I was bidding overseas.
Some collectors think that buying coins is where all the fun is. I don't. To me studying what you have is fun. Buying coins can be fun, but usually it's not. Auctions are the pits. They are never fun. I get run up almost every time. Maybe it's different for other people.
Revised to ask, have you had any experience with MA Shops? It's an on-line company that is supposed to facility overseas coin purchases.
To be honest, I know you're a very experienced collector, so my response was more for the OP. But it's sad that you're almost excluded from buying UK coins from the UK because of inappropriate charges. Late Saxon coins don't come up often at the best of times (except Cnut and Aethelred II), particularly anything in good condition.
I wouldn't even have Matilda on the list. I'd never seen her on a list of English monarchs until Wikipedia came along, and even they have her as disputed. She never controlled the whole country and wasn't crowned (which would also exclude Edward VIII). But I notice that with Roman coins every usurper, no matter how brief or small a fraction of the empire they ruled, gets counted as long as they produced coins, so using that system you'd have to include her.
MA Shops is like VCoins - so it still depends on the dealer's shipping policies, but the transaction is through MA Shops so you should have less trouble with charges (like VAT) and you can pay by PayPal. I've mostly bought from Germany through MA Shops, but I've never had problems from Germany direct from dealers either.
One London dealer at the 2020 Winter FUN show told me the Matilda was "impossible." She came close to getting crowned, but never quite made it. I wrote her off until I saw a piece crop up in a Heritage Auctions. Of course they get the highest bids on the planet, so I was not surprised when I had one person (as usual) who took my bid to the moon.
As for the very early material, Great Collections, of all placed had an Edward The Martyr penny. It was slabbed in a "details" holder, and as usual one person took me out. This is why I say I'd sooner over pay a dealer in a private transaction, than get screwed in an auction. At least I end up with the item.
For me auction results are higher than retail, and I can show you instances where a pieces brought more in an auction than they were in a fixed price list.
Yes I know what you mean. I've only ever bought two coins from Heritage as I have to add customs fees on top, which means the coin has to be particularly special and still go relatively cheaply. UK auctions can be similar, although not quite Heritage levels as they don't have the slab buyers. It's frustrating if you only want one coin in each auction and 90% of the time the price goes crazy.
But I have bought even from the likes of CNG, DNW and Spink at lower prices than dealers offer (despite the auction estimates being obliterated). In fact, I often see a coin I was watching at one of those auctions appear in a dealer's inventory. Presumably, they'll sit there for a few years until they look cheap again.
Matilda coins come up more often than 'impossible', but I imagine that would always be at auction and you'd need a spare $10,000+. And all her coins are very poorly struck anyway.
Yes, I read that there was a hoard of about 200 Matilda coins that was discovered a couple of decades ago. This had to be one of them.
I have had the opposite experience in hundreds of transactions. I have never paid any import duties, and neither should you. There are no federal import duties on coins. As far as state sales tax, that's up to your state. It's different everywhere. I use transferwise and the rates are competitive. Cheaper than wire transfer. As an American, you should not be charged VAT on BP. If you are, just email the auctioneer, they will remove it.
The Coed-y-Wenallt hoard. Found in Wales in 1980, it remains the main source of coins of Matilda. Not a lot are known apart from this hoard.
Many of the coins in the hoard were broken and repaired by the museum of Wales.
Here is my coin of Matilda, from the hoard, in 3 pieces and repaired. Not a gorgeous piece but also not nearly as expensive as an unimpaired piece.
I saw the Edward the Martyr in GC and I saw it in-hand as well. Not a very nice coin but a rare bird. It has already resold for more. Here’s my Edward the Martyr.
My purchase was a private treaty purchase. As far as I’m concerned, the government screwed me with VAT and I can’t do anything about it. They send you a bill, what can you do unless you a lawyer who wants to take the trouble to fight it. It was before the pandemic.
If the British dealers want American business, they should respect their customers. I spend a lot of money by some standards, well into the 5 figures per year, but not enough. I’ll spend my money here with the dealers I know.
I have three opportunities to bid on the coins you posted in five years, one Matilda and two Edwards, both clipped, and all of them were in a crummy auctions. I have to pay far more than any previous results, working only with pictures. Those who get to see the coins in person have an advantage.
I just barely got done with a miserable political items auctions. Items brought thousands of dollars that could be had for a couple hundred dollars at the shows. At least I’ll know where to consign my collection which is quite large. I won a couple lots. The pieces I ended were something you see once or twice every five years. That’s the kind of stuff you have to buy at auction. The rest of it makes no sense.
I'm assuming you were talking about US import taxes? If so, which many don't seem to know, import taxes are due on items which cost more than $1,000.00 if I remember correctly.
You need to have the Matilda from the movie make one of those Matilda coins presentable for you!
I know what the Matilda coins look like. Believe it or not, the one I posted is choice.
I do understand how they come.
I was trying to be funny! Actually maybe I should of said make them presentable to me! Dropping 10k+ on a coin like that to me would be the same as dropping 10K+ on a rusted out old VW because they didn't make many of them!
When all of the known coins are bad, you accept them for what they are if you want them.
Here are a couple of examples of where I held out and stepped up when a nice example was offered.
William II a.k.a. "Rufus" His pennies are notoriously bad
Henry I
This was my first Henry I, but it only cost $200.
And here is my Henry IV coin. It's a gold noble. After having a couple dealers show me Henry IV coins that looked like they had been run over by a railroad train for the "bargain price" $2,750, I decided that the gold piece was only way to go.
Yes there are plenty of English rulers where that applies. Here's my 'not bad' William II.
William II Penny, 1092-1095
London. Silver, 1.4g. Crowned bust facing, star either side; + þillelm rei. Voided short cross potent over cross pommée; + þvlfþord on lv (Wulfweard of London) (S 1260).
I'm still waiting to find a decent Henry I or IV, although for Henry IV I added a filler for under £100 that means it's even tougher to find one that will tempt me.
Henry IV Light Coinage Halfpenny, 1412-1413
Tower. SIlver, 0.56g. Crowned bust facing, annulet either side in upper field; HENRIC REX ANGL. Long cross pattée with three pellets in each angle; CIVITAS LONDON (S 1737).
I’m certainly getting my education here and from the UK. Lot of these in F and VF condition look like road kill to a guy like me who’s used to buying milled coins that are maybe 100 to 200 years old. This is definitely a leap of faith. I bought my first Henry VI half groat and have my eye on a couple from a company called Hammered British coins, but it definitely requires a reset on what you consider a high quality coin.
I have to keep in mind that these items are true relics that may have been buried for the last 4 or 500 years
P.S. BillJones that gold coin is absolutely spectacular
Actually the grade can be MS and they still look like this. The strike is usually poor and the dies completely worn, so even if they’re uncirculated they look bad. There were few monarchs who put coin quality over just getting them out to fund their wars.
…although Henry VI has some very nice coins, particularly from Calais.
JohnConduitt And Billjones - in some browsing I have seen holed coins that are still listed as VF condition. Generally I would never consider a damaged (holed) coin, but in this hammered coin market is that something I should consider? Or should I run? It’s an Edward VI #2483 offered for about $250. I have not seen it yet, just curious if this is something I need to have an open mind about. Thx
I wouldn’t, no. Holed pieces are only slightly more tolerated. There are some with a good story - they might be touch pieces (touched by the monarch and so worn close to the skin for their healing properties); or in the case of the Great Recoinage of 1696, holed in the centre to show they were good silver and so still legal tender. But there’s no proof the hole in any given coin had anything to do with either.
Couple new purchases, Henry VII groat and Elizabeth 1 sixpence. Quite pleased with my purchases, just starting out and picking out what looks interesting. Also grabbed a Henry VII half groat to start up the collection. Very interesting side of collecting-lots of reading to do.
Here is the reverse of each of the above
You've done well. Is that a Type IVa Henry VII groat?
Yes it is. Thanks for input - so much to learn…. S#2200