Lowball Moderns
Treeman
Posts: 418 ✭✭✭
Can anyone explain to me how a coin like the Kennedy Half, or Ike Dollar can end up in such a worn condition LEGITIMATELY? I have heard the "pocket piece" explanation, and that begs the question, "What on earth is that guy doing in his pocket?" It would be very hard to wear a coin that much by carrying it around, even if you walked around with your pocket full of sand....
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In can take years or even decades, but daily pocket-piecing of a coin can wear an Ike or Kennedy to G4 or below. I am still working on 3 classic commems that started out as hairlined AUs and are now VF.
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are you a jogger.
Call me cynical, but they may not be legitimate
A rock tumbler, couple of types of media, artificially aged/patinated or buried for a period of time. But I suppose there could be a lot of heavily worn pocket pieces out there. Wish I could could find them, but in over 50+ years of collecting and looking at all my change I haven't seen any clad less than a VG and those were few and far between.
I have no data to support that some/many PO-01 and Fair-2 clads are not legit, so it's only my opinion, but things seem to smell fishy in the lowball modern arena (at least to me)
First thing I thought of was gambling machines, for Ike Dollars. Not sure about Kennedy Half Dollars.
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The mind set of those who participate in the hobby can be and is both interesting, perplexing and amusing.
If one sees an Ike dollar or a JFK half dollar that is worn down to the "lowball" level of a PO-1 or a FR-2 suspicion arises and people question whether the coin is "legitimate" (is it the result of natural or honest wear in circulation, or is it the result of something that is not natural and dishonest wear?).
What is the definition of "legitimate" anyway?
Same thing with toning (is the coin NT, AT or simply MA?).
Same thing with untoned coins (is the coin dipped and stripped?; and if so is it MA?).
Not everyone in the hobby thinks the same. Thus what is a persons "ideal coin" varies.
One may place "originality" at the top of their personal list of desirable characteristics of a coin (even if a fully original coin is hideously ugly).
One may place "positive eye appeal" at the top of their personal list of desirable characteristics of a coin (even if the coin is the product of human intervention with the intention of making the coin "pretty").
As for low ball moderns, they are a conversation starter. Like them or dislike them, these coins occupy a niche in the hobby and will not go away any time soon.
No, and I don't even carry them every day. Took 10 years to get to VF so far.
Lafayette Grading Set
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OMG! The heads have been worn clean off!
There is 'pocket ' wear, and 'tumbler' wear.... However, one of the best methods is to use a vibratory cartridge cleaner. Add the right 'medium' and progress is fairly prompt and indistinguishable from 'natural' wear. Since no one seems to mention this, I believe it may be a 'trade secret'. Cheers, RickO
vibratory cartridge cleaner
Treasure in my pocket has turned into treasure in my vibratory tumbler?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I find these things all the time. No idea how, what, where or why!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I just saw this on eBay - not my coin nor do I know the seller - seems to be lowest PCGS graded modern gold eagle
Definitely a cool looking pocket piece.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/186754245534
peacockcoins
Maybe its me but those all look like artificially worn down and not through commerce. If collectors don't care, enjoy, not me.
At a BIN of $2750, it's essentially priced close to double melt value. Hard pass.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No, this one is a half ounce.
peacockcoins
Agree. The obverse rims are too sharp and well pronounced for the assigned grade.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
So you're suggesting this coin "could" have been in circulation and used in commerce for the past 24 years?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Definitely used in commerce but not worn down to that level strictly by normal handling.
There was a fun series of short stories in "The Saturday Evening Post," about 90 years ago, featuring a ship's engineer named Colin Glencannon. Occasionally, Mr. Glencannon would kill time beating a canvas bag, full of course sand and gold coins, against the ship's rail; apparently, this was a time-honored way to shave small amounts of gold off of gold coins, while leaving the coins perfectly good for circulation. I suspect that something similar may be behind your coin.
So again, you're saying this coin was used in commerce in exchange for goods and services?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
They're not mine so I can't guarantee it, but so no reason why they couldn't have been used, although the 2000 gold coin was not. Didn't see the year before and thought it was an original St. Guardins gold,
That may have been a pocket piece that was carried with other pocket change. I wonder how much gold was lost from all that wear.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
typically 7-9% weight to get to G4 or lower
This coin made the rounds over at GC in the last year or so where it didn’t sell, now it’s making another appearance where nobody is going to buy it at the higher listing price.
Tough thing about this coin is it isn’t a low enough grade for lowball collectors to care, and anyone collecting nice gold eagles wouldn’t want this worn dog. Moral of this coin story is don’t expect your pocket piece American eagles to have demand. It’s a tough sell, basically worth melt.
Not to belittle the coin but how is it possible that this coin got into a slab? It’s rather obvious to me that a modern bullion gold coin never circulated.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Too many anxious, fidgety people walking around with their hands in their pockets.
I cracked this from a proof set 3 years ago (10/20/21) and it’s been in my pocket every day since. No machinery, tumblers or other trickery. Just jangling about in my pocket along with wear from spinning it, whilst sitting idly, between thumb and index finger.
On the contrary, Google is not your friend.
Back in the olden days most work was done by hand. even hard work like digging ditches was done by hand. In those days coins represented a lot of money and most men carried them around in their pockets for daily expenses. This made the coins wear far more rapidly than most people imagine. The silver especially wore rapidly but so did clad. After only a week or two the BU silvers could be down to XF 45 and the clad to AU-50. Over the years in a random walk the coins would get caught up in this cycle numerous times and, of course, in the interim they were exposed to numerous damaging and erosive forces such as sliding across counters, swirling around in counting machines, and being dropped.
A lot of the coins that become low ball have had their rims removed. The rims not only allow coins to stack but take the brunt of all the wear. By removing them the highpoints are exposed and by the time the coin wears down you can no longer tell the rim was removed.
People do all sorts of odd things to coins and coins are exposed to odd things through happenstance or intent.
They simply don't last in circulation. They walk about randomly for 30 years and they are gone. In short order all of the mintage is worn or lost forever. Clads were designed to last only 30 years so have held up pretty well but try finding a few of the old ones and make a note of what condition they are in. It's not pretty. Even the heavily worn ones now days don't look like they came out of a rock tumbler so much as they've been beaten with an ugly stick.
Worn small dollars likely circulated in one of a few countries that use these coins. I believe the Dominican Republic is one of them. It's a shame they aren't used here because the banks are allowed to refuse to distribute them.
I heard Central and South America also.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
What a fun idea for a thread.
Here is my contribution. These are some of the Modern coins from my LowBall Dansco set:
peacockcoins
Just to add a couple more.
(The POP on the Franklin is this single coin- POP ONE- in all grades between PO1 and VF35.)
peacockcoins
@cladking
I'm not so sure silver wears down that quickly in 'normal' circulation. The Peace dollar on my car key chain belonged to my father. When he got it and had it drilled it was BU and that was about 60 years ago. He passed over 30 years ago and I have used everyday since. It has been in my pockets and banged/thrown around everyday. Figure it is a VF today. I do not thumb it all day long so maybe that is how some of these coins get down to a F2 or P1. I do not know how that 64 Kennedy got so worn. Over the last 60 years I've seen a Kennedy in circulation about a dozen times. Folks did not spend Kennedy's much. Just MHO.
A brown dot. Yes, it looks worse in hand! 🤚 🤣 😉
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
^
Any Fugio is cool in my book, especially so when they are problem free.
Sweet coin!
I rate them right up there with the Chain Cent.
peacockcoins
Agreed. I've always kept an eye open for any straight graded PO1.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Oh shoot!!! This thread is for lowball moderns..
Sorry. You want me to delete it?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Rock polisher pieces.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Thanks @mr1931S !
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
"Normal" circulation is different now than it was in 1950. In the old days ten men would dig a ditch with coins rattling in each of their pockets and one man would supervise and make sure the ditch was in the right place. Coins were useful and worth a lot of money. Today one man operates a backhoe and ten men watch. None of them have coins in their pockets because they are worthless and it's out of style anyway. Many pants tend to have such wide or shallow pockets things get lost from them anyway. Instead of playing softball after work they all go home and stream movies or play nintendo. Not many people even play poker with pocket change any longer. Many things used to directly or indirectly involve coins.
Coins are just counters today and a means to make change. They are accumulated by individuals until they are hauled off to the bank.
Every time a coin was used in 1950 it had a chance of its next owner being a ditch digger where it would jingle in his pocket until it was randomly pulled out and spent often after several days or a few weeks. During these times including poker games etc they would be exposed to a very high rate of wear. But remember coins circulate randomly and still do. They move in a random walk and in the interim they are exposed to unique conditions which can persist. No coin can randomly go to the pockets of one ditch digger to another forever. They get tossed out of the loop and replaced by a different one that probably has less wear. All the coins in circulation hence wear out very evenly. If you found a high grade coin in 1950 it was because it sat in FED storage for decades because the FED used to not rotate their stocks. Coins sitting in vaults don't wear out in anyone's pocket. Most low ball coins were the result of being carried in pockets intentionally as a lucky charm or some reason.
Today the mint rotates their stocks of coins so there are no mountains of lightly worn or uncirculated coins in warehouses. Coins get almost all of their wear sliding on counters and swirling in machines. It's statistically impossible for a coin to wear to Poor condition in "normal" circulation. Every coin is wearing evenly despite the different rates experienced by each coin because the coins are swapped out of storage before they've been there more than a year or two. Some coins are being getting carried as pocket pieces and if the carrier is very active the coins will wear down in ten or twenty years. But if your pocket isn't jingling the wear is going to be very slow. Most of these today are being produced. Some expertly some not.
There are other things that can cause these "naturally" no doubt. Coins can get caught up in machinery inadvertently and become worn quickly.
Just as a coin's path is a matter of odds so too are the conditions it experiences. But intent can move mountains so it can certainly wear down the high spots on a coin.
One of the reasons silver wears so much faster is just its weight. They are much heavier and have more momentum when they collide with other objects. A silver coin in a pocket will have had more silver coins, more weight, pressing down on it. But they really are softer than clad. In 1964 a 25 year old quarter was often in AG condition. Even though habits hadn't changed so much by 1989 a 25 year old clad was never seen below VG. There's a lot of metal missing between AG and VG on this design. Even today after 60 years a 1965 quarter can still be found in VG if you can find one at all and are patient enough to find several because most are a mess. While most 1939 quarters were heavily worn in 1965 it wasn't too hard to find XF's and 'AU's. They still abound today. There are no old clads except in AG, G, and VG and only a few survive which tend to all be culls because coins today aren't jingling in pockets they are being brutalized by counting machines.
Perhaps the lowest grade 1964 Kennedy out there:
peacockcoins
I'm kinda loving these lowball moderns. The super wear makes them appear more authentic as real coins like the good old circulating pieces.
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Not exactly a modern lowball... Well, maybe for a proof it could be. I found this clad proof in a box of halves. The proof luster is completely gone. It looks like a business strike in hand.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Is there a D mint mark hidden in there?
Lafayette Grading Set
Lafayette Grading Set
Lafayette Grading Set
Lafayette Grading Set
Okay @pocketpiececommems - Now tell us how you made them. 😎 And don't tell us they came out of your pocket. 😉
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )