How can this graded coin be an MS68 when it is a later die state and unappealing specimen like this?
BUFFNIXX
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How can this so-called graded 1913 type one ms68 buffalo nickel get an ms68? A later die state coin with mushy detail.
And someone is supposed to pay over 6 grand for this? I don't get it
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
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Dare I ask: Did it sticker?
You pay what you are willing to pay and the grading services will grade according to their own proprietary standards.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Unless the graders at NGC are taking questions here, you're not going to get an answer to your grading question. As far as pricing goes, nobody is obligated to pay any particular amount. The coin is worth whatever somebody is willing to pay.
It didn't sticker but rather it stinkered.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Slab labels have been wrong before - or else the coin looks better in hand.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Apparently, the grading company isn’t bothered by the late die state, like you are. And no one is “supposed to pay over 6 grand” or any other amount for the coin, unless it’s worth it to them and they agree to buy it.
One thing I learned very quickly as a grader, is that just because you don’t like a coin, doesn’t mean it’s incorrectly graded.
Edited to add: I don’t like the coin as a 68, either, but that’s somewhat beside the point.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have tried and failed to crossover a few ATS holdered coins at the same grade, as a minimum. Imo, their grading is looser than our host.
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The coin may have extraordinary color and luster, affording the lofty MS68 grade.
JMHO that coin looks silly in a 68 holder seven days a week and twice on Sundays
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Exactly. Luster often exhibits best in later die states due to the die flow lines. Die state alone doesn't affect grade all that much, even for VLDS coins like this one, but luster is everything for making high grade.
http://macrocoins.com
Die state is not the same thing as mint state. This is a perfect example of "buy the coin and not the holder".
Just pass on it and keep looking for one that is up to your standards.
I know this is a lousy photo but this one got CAC approved
Die state aside, it is well struck and I don't see really any marks on it.
Collector, occasional seller
It must have blazing luster and tremendous eye appeal, but I have not seen in hand.
@BUFFNIXX Thanks for a great example of why one needs to carefully examine the actual coin rather than just depend on the assigned grade. The value of a coin doesn't always correlate well with the grade opinion shown on the slab label.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The coin has terminal dies on both sides, is not well struck (which is supposed to be a prerequisite for a coin of 65 or better).
Correct to say that I am surprised the Mint left that die pair in the press as long as they did.
But yes, beauty IS in the eyes of the beholder.
Just not me.
Pete
I'm often willing to trade a bit of softness in details for the spectacular luster of late die-state coins, but this one is a bit mushy for my taste. It’s still a gorgeous coin. Should it be valued the same as other 68 coins? Probably not. This coin is "mostly there" not "all there." If I'm paying 68 money for a 68 coin, it better be all there.
It seems I've now been in the hobby long enough now to join the ranks of those who ponder and complain about wandering grading "standards." What I'm seeing over the past year or two seems different. I guess that's OK, and nobody asks my opinion, but I dislike the thought of needed to have everything regraded if/when I decide to sell.
It's an ugly buffalo nickel. It should be graded, at best, MS-10.
When I was collecting Buffalos, I was always okay with a minimal amount of orange peel because it tended to activate or at least enhance luster. But when it starts showing on the Indian’s cheek and hair(like here), that is a bridge too far.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Mark, as you were a grader, did you have specifics regarding MS68 grades as to marks or spots and was strike to ever be a grading factor? Just curious. Perhaps to this grader's view, this coin met his criteria and strike not a factor. This may vary at different grading companies.
jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
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I don't care if that coin is how it left the dies, it is inferior and IMO have seen 65s that have much more eye appeal. But as has been said above, to each his/her own.
Well, just Love coins, period.
it is just unappealing to you. I have seen some PR68 coins that were unappealing to me.
Where there are fewer details in the die for the metal to flow into, the coin receives greater compaction making the coin surfaces harder. A higher compacted coin does not nick up as easily as a coin that receives all the (full) details. Raised details are prone to receive more nicks over a coin with smoother surfaces and little detail. All coins struck with damaged dies (because dies really take a beating after stamping thousands of coin blanks) grade no higher than MS64. IMO
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Wow, Leo, that is a bold statement. I'm not saying I disagree though I may change your 64 to 65. Still, it appears that the grading services disagree. I also assume that is your position with Jefferson nickels as well, which do a pretty good job beating up dies. I've seen some pretty beat up Jeffs in high grade holders. In fact, the grading services' lack of consistency in grading nickels, including full step designations, is one of the biggest reasons I shy away from more serious collecting of Jefferson nickels. Don't you agree? (about the grading services' inconsistency, I mean).
Tom
Jim, generally speaking, in the case of classic coins, I feel that they should be exceptional or special, in order to qualify for a grade of 68. And I’ve seen a number of MS/PR 68 examples which I didn’t think met that standard.
I tend not to focus on strike as much as some other people do. So if a coin has everything else going for it, as long as the strike is good or better, I’m OK with a grade of 68.
Regarding spots - the higher the grade being considered, the less tolerant of them, I am. For example, there would be very few coins graded 67 or higher for which I’d tolerate any spots.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Much of this discussion centers around personal preferences. This is certainly acceptable, and applies to art and many other aspects of life. Grading is not controlled by standards - rather it is a trained opinion. As with art, some will praise the item, others condemn or simply pass. I buy coins that I like, according to my preferences. Others would not agree with my criteria. Coin collecting is a hobby - for many - and a business, for some. In either case, pursue your choices and leave others to their preference. Cheers, RickO
It's not so much there's an inconsistency. The majority of new collectors don't have enough experience to know better or sellers see a windfall whenever they hit a paydirt grade. The few that do care and include the strike variable into the grade/quality of coin they choose to collect end up with the better coins. But that's how the game is played, the losers usually pay the winners in the long run or the system fails. The coin graders grade what constantly gets pushed upon them and the submitter usually wins after subsequential submissions. They are not responsible for what, how people collect. There will always be several level/tiers of groups/collectors out there to appease. I'm good with that. I don't need any forced competition for the coins I collect. But sharing my experiences helps my kind of coin in the long run, as well.
So there you have it, the secret is out! You or I may see an inconsistency due to the way we collect/want coins but this ideology hasn't yet set well with most of the others and may never will and that's ok.
And the latest poster boy in Jeffersons, he's doing nicely/improving in his selections, good for him!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Generally, I'll accept a 65 grade when the strike is less than full, a strong medium strike when the toning can bump it up. Depending how marky it is, the grade may stay at 64, There's mint bloom which can really bring a coin to life. Here's are a few examples with various levels of details that grade 64 or 65.
But to have a 39-S that looks like this 1939..........someone would need to wipe my chin.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I think NGC grades more off how close the coin is relative to the moment it was struck. I think PCGS skews slightly more towards using an ideal strike as the comparison point. The difference between those two approaches seems mostly noticeable in the highest grades, like MS68.
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"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
There have been many coins sold that would qualify as unthinkable to many collectors. However all it takes is 2 or 3 registry set builders with deep pockets to drive certain coins to nose bleed prices. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Well I guess if you collect the holder and not the coin this is an OK MS68. But you can go over to ebay any time of the day
and find slabbed MS64 and M65 1913 ty.1 buffs that look better than this so-called MS68!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
You initially indicated that the coin was graded MS68. I guess that even though you thought it was badly over-graded, it actually upgraded after you started this thread.
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To Mark Feld
Sorry I corrected my error but hey could you just imagine this coin strutting its stuff in the first ever ms69
buffalo nickel holder? I have seen pcgs and ngc ms67 coins that were so nice you could easily imagine them in
ms68 or maybe even ms69 holders.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
There is got to be a 38-D out there that will grade MS69 someday