Best unprotected hitters of all time

Goldenage

Great hitters who didn’t have help in front of them or behind them in the lineup.

Examples: Ted Williams. George Brett. Mike Schmidt Tony Gwynn. Don Mattingly

LandrysFedora

Chipper Jones

Justacommeman

I thought this was going to be a thread about unsafe promiscuous major league behavior. Whew

m

PaulMaul

Ralph Kiner

dallasactuary

Frank Thomas

Ron Fairly

Tabe

@Goldenage said:
Great hitters who didn’t have help in front of them or behind them in the lineup.

Examples: Ted Williams. George Brett. Mike Schmidt Tony Gwynn. Don Mattingly

Mattingly had Dave Winfield. Williams got a few years of Vern Stephens at least.

Hydrant

@Justacommeman said:
I thought this was going to be a thread about unsafe promiscuous major league behavior. Whew

m

That thought went through my pea brain too! I wanted to post something along those lines but I figured I'd get banned!😂😂

1951WheatiesPremium

@Tabe said:

@Goldenage said:
Great hitters who didn’t have help in front of them or behind them in the lineup.

Examples: Ted Williams. George Brett. Mike Schmidt Tony Gwynn. Don Mattingly

Mattingly had Dave Winfield. Williams got a few years of Vern Stephens at least.

And Rickey Henderson ahead of him.

How about Vladimir Guerrero? Especially in the Montreal days…there were several lean years.

Tabe

@1951WheatiesPremium said:

How about Vladimir Guerrero? Especially in the Montreal days…there were several lean years.

That's not a very nice way to describe luminaries such as Chris Widger and FP Santangelo.

galaxy27

@1951WheatiesPremium said:

How about Vladimir Guerrero? Especially in the Montreal days…there were several lean years.

this is my favorite baseball player of all time you speak of, so i'm fully aware. dallas has a hard time with VG being in the hall, but i'm quite confident that he never fully examined the entire Expos roster for his first 8 seasons when he was putting up the most impressive numbers of his career. in fairness, he had two nice hitters around him in Jose Vidro & Rondell White. i said nice. perhaps good. not remotely great. outside of those two guys, to say that the cupboard was bare would be an insult to anything that's naked. when you take into consideration that he had a handful of 150+ OPS+ Expo seasons with guys like Lee Stevens, Brad Fullmer, Orlando Cabrera, and Michael Barrett batting directly behind him...............and you take into consideration that the concrete in Olympic Stadium aged him so profoundly that he could no longer run the latter part of his career..............it's time to re-examine his candidacy if you can't sleep at night knowing he's in. had he not been drafted by a moribund franchise that was closer to being put out to pasture than ever sniffing the postseason, his numbers could've -- and probably would've -- been sublime

dallasactuary

@galaxy27 said:
dallas has a hard time with VG being in the hall,

Just to be clear, my problem with VG getting in the hall wasn't so much that he wasn't good enough, because there's a solid argument that he was. My problem is that there is a substantial group of players every bit as good as VG who had their chance to get in and didn't. Players like Rocky Colavito, Boog Powell, Frank Howard, Norm Cash, and several others. As I said at the time, plucking VG out from among this group and putting only him in the HOF is just random, and honors distributed randomly aren't really honors. I'm absolutely fine with a HOF that either includes all of these players or excludes all of these players, but a HOF that excludes all of these players and then, oops, lets VG in is what bothers me.

galaxy27

@dallasactuary said:

@galaxy27 said:
dallas has a hard time with VG being in the hall,

Just to be clear, my problem with VG getting in the hall wasn't so much that he wasn't good enough, because there's a solid argument that he was. My problem is that there is a substantial group of players every bit as good as VG who had their chance to get in and didn't. Players like Rocky Colavito, Boog Powell, Frank Howard, Norm Cash, and several others. As I said at the time, plucking VG out from among this group and putting only him in the HOF is just random, and honors distributed randomly aren't really honors. I'm absolutely fine with a HOF that either includes all of these players or excludes all of these players, but a HOF that excludes all of these players and then, oops, lets VG in is what bothers me.

understood and i concur. but let's face it, the entire process -- along with the sport itself -- has been circling the drain for years. there's no rhyme or reason, and it's borderline impossible to make sense of things. i mean, when A.J. Pierzynski garners two votes to be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame, that's enough to make me abstain from watching another pitch for the rest of my life. it has become an absurd misrepresentation of something that's supposed to be greatly revered. thus, i personally attempt to dissect players based on their own merits........the best i can. the moment i start delving into Hall inequities is the day i start caring more about a sport that doesn't deserve that level of care.

for crying out loud, look at what happened just today: already carving into the 162. no sport can impede its own progress and success quite like baseball can.

Justacommeman

@galaxy27 said:

@dallasactuary said:

@galaxy27 said:
dallas has a hard time with VG being in the hall,

Just to be clear, my problem with VG getting in the hall wasn't so much that he wasn't good enough, because there's a solid argument that he was. My problem is that there is a substantial group of players every bit as good as VG who had their chance to get in and didn't. Players like Rocky Colavito, Boog Powell, Frank Howard, Norm Cash, and several others. As I said at the time, plucking VG out from among this group and putting only him in the HOF is just random, and honors distributed randomly aren't really honors. I'm absolutely fine with a HOF that either includes all of these players or excludes all of these players, but a HOF that excludes all of these players and then, oops, lets VG in is what bothers me.

understood and i concur. but let's face it, the entire process -- along with the sport itself -- has been circling the drain for years. there's no rhyme or reason, and it's borderline impossible to make sense of things. i mean, when A.J. Pierzynski garners two votes to be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame, that's enough to make me abstain from watching another pitch for the rest of my life. it has become an absurd misrepresentation of something that's supposed to be greatly revered. thus, i personally attempt to dissect players based on their own merits........the best i can. the moment i start delving into Hall inequities is the day i start caring more about a sport that doesn't deserve that level of care.

for crying out loud, look at what happened just today: already carving into the 162. no sport can impede its own progress and success quite like baseball can.

Now might be the time to unleash my backyard whiffle ball league.

m

galaxy27

@Justacommeman said:

I thought this was going to be a thread about unsafe promiscuous major league behavior. Whew

m

twice in the past week i've briskly read a title and almost turned the thread into a dumpster fire as a result

i saw 'List your problem(s) with MLB' and damn near unloaded all of my issues on you guys

then today i saw this one and started searching feverishly for a pic of a girl from college

1951WheatiesPremium

@dallasactuary

Vlad Guerrero is significantly better than any player you mentioned; those players are not in any ways his peer, career wise or statistically. His peers by age are (mostly) Manny Ramirez, Willie Mays and Duke Snider.

The disparity between a career .318 hitter and a .267 hitter can not be overstated, here. There’s no park factor or era adjustment making up for 50 points.

coinkat

@Justacommeman

Do the BBQ with beer and you just might have something

dallasactuary

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Vlad Guerrero is significantly better than any player you mentioned; those players are not in any ways his peer, career wise or statistically. His peers by age are (mostly) Manny Ramirez, Willie Mays and Duke Snider.

The disparity between a career .318 hitter and a .267 hitter can not be overstated, here. There’s no park factor or era adjustment making up for 50 points.

I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry, but then I realized that you were declaring Ed Delahanty better than Mickey Mantle and laughter was the only possible choice. Then it sunk in that you listed Manny Ramirez and Willie Mays in the same list of "peers", which means you consider Manny Ramirez and Willie Mays to be peers, and now the laughter just won't stop. I'm not at all sure how or why you made this absurd post with a straight face, but you did it. With God as my witness, you did it!!! High five, my brother!

1951WheatiesPremium

@dallasactuary said:

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Vlad Guerrero is significantly better than any player you mentioned; those players are not in any ways his peer, career wise or statistically. His peers by age are (mostly) Manny Ramirez, Willie Mays and Duke Snider.

The disparity between a career .318 hitter and a .267 hitter can not be overstated, here. There’s no park factor or era adjustment making up for 50 points.

I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry, but then I realized that you were declaring Ed Delahanty better than Mickey Mantle and laughter was the only possible choice. Then it sunk in that you listed Manny Ramirez and Willie Mays in the same list of "peers", which means you consider Manny Ramirez and Willie Mays to be peers, and now the laughter just won't stop. I'm not at all sure how or why you made this absurd post with a straight face, but you did it. With God as my witness, you did it!!! High five, my brother!

The point is that we’re talking about Hall of Fame players or players with Hall of Fame caliber stats.

Vlad was a lethal hitter mired on bad teams his whole career.

1951WheatiesPremium

@dallasactuary

By the way, statistically speaking, Manny Ramirez and Willie Mays were peers as hitters. I obviously don’t put them in the same class of ball player and Manny was obviously a repeat offender for PEDs. However, baseball-reference is a statistically driven website to be consumed as the reader decides. And there is no doubt that a ball player with stats comparable to Willie and Duke for the vast majority of their career is more than a ‘last man in’ the Hall of Fame.

Deride Jack Morris, laugh at Harold Baines but you’re straight wrong on Vlad Guerrero. No doubt Hall of Famer.

dallasactuary

@1951WheatiesPremium said:

Deride Jack Morris, laugh at Harold Baines but you’re straight wrong on Vlad Guerrero. No doubt Hall of Famer.

I still don't get the joke, but I'll play. You went to bb-ref as "evidence" for your joke, so I'll go there, too. Vlad Guerrero ranks as the 21st best right fielder on bb-ref using their JAWS metric. That ranks him behind everyone baseball fans already knew he ranked behind (Ruth, Aaron, F. Robinson, Reggie, Crawford, etc.), but it also places him behind Reggie Smith and Dwight Evans. Fine players, in fact peers of Guerrero, but peers of Willie Mays??? See, I'm laughing again, and I don't see how you're keeping a straight face. I really, truly don't.

And I know this thread is about hitters, but it's impossible for me to think of Guerrero without also considering that he was the worst outfielder I saw play since Luzinski retired. Not relevant to his hitting peers, but certainly relevant to his HOF worthiness.

And seriously, if it wasn't a joke, please take back your statement that there is no era or park adjustment that can make up 50 points of batting average. You can tie your own shoes, so I know you know how ridiculous that statement was. If not, Chick Hafey and Mike Schmidt can explain it to you.

daltex

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
@dallasactuary

By the way, statistically speaking, Manny Ramirez and Willie Mays were peers as hitters. I obviously don’t put them in the same class of ball player and Manny was obviously a repeat offender for PEDs. However, baseball-reference is a statistically driven website to be consumed as the reader decides. And there is no doubt that a ball player with stats comparable to Willie and Duke for the vast majority of their career is more than a ‘last man in’ the Hall of Fame.

Deride Jack Morris, laugh at Harold Baines but you’re straight wrong on Vlad Guerrero. No doubt Hall of Famer.

Yep. If you discount ~2800 plate appearances extra to bring Mays down to Ramirez' standard. No doubt that Ramirez was a great hitter, but there is a huge difference between a ~150 OPS+ over 9800 plate appearances and doing it over 12,500. Besides, other than hitting, Ramirez was terrible. Mays was, um, not.

No one is arguing that Guerrero is the worst player enshrined, just that there are lots of players not distinguishable from him who are not It's like putting Jim Kaat in the Hall from among Gary Nolan, Vida Blue, and Jon Matlack, or Morris over Burt Hooton, Jamie Moyer or Bob Welch.

1951WheatiesPremium

@daltex
@dallasactuary

You’re the same person, right?

In one account you flex your internet muscles and one you don’t?

Because it seems like when you’re wrong - which is often - both accounts pop up.

How’s that going?

dallasactuary

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
@daltex
@dallasactuary

You’re the same person, right?

Not the same person, but two people who understand how baseball works. I can see how that might be a challenging distinction to make for those who don't.

1951WheatiesPremium

@dallasactuary said:

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
@daltex
@dallasactuary

You’re the same person, right?

Not the same person, but two people who understand how baseball works. I can see how that might be a challenging distinction to make for those who don't.

Well, you guys sure have similar patterns, go to phrases and tactics. And back each other up…a lot. And in a timely fashion. A lot.

The topic is ‘unprotected hitters’ of which Vlad is a terrific example. According to baseball reference, Guerrero is most similar by age to Mays, Ramirez and Duke Snider.

Not Norm Cash.

Not Boog Powell.

Not Frank Howard.

Now, you can pick one word from my post and get uppity like usual or admit the fact that you were simply wrong about Vlad Guerrero. Though I imagine you will dig in, toss a few insults my way while addressing unrelated points to the topic at hand, and then proclaim victory.

Question: Do you ever tire of this formulaic response?

I believe, by comparison, that sunrises are less predictable than your typical response.

dallasactuary

It would help if, rather than simply proclaim me "wrong about Vlad Guerrero", you would quote (not paraphrase) what it is I said with which you disagree and then demonstrate why what I said was "wrong". Showing a listing of "similar players" from bb-ref doesn't work, because bb-ref makes no park or era adjustments in those comparisons. Vlad Guerrero is not, in fact, similar in any meaningful way to Willie Mays but he is, in fact, similar to Frank Howard and several others on the HOF borderline.

And if my responses are predictable it is because the same tired arguments keep getting made and what made them wrong the first 40 times I addressed them still makes them wrong the 41st time. Want a new and original response? Make a new and original argument. I could refute the one you've made here using haikus, but would that really make a difference?

perkdog

@1951WheatiesPremium vs @dallasactuary is an epic battle!!

🍿 🍺

1948_Swell_Robinson

Barry Bonds. IBB tells it all.

1951WheatiesPremium

@dallasactuary

Vlad hit .318
Boog, Frank and Norm could never
Hold Guerrero’s jock

😉

PaulMaul

Speaking of Norm Cash, it really sucks that he didn’t win the MVP in 1961 due to Maris. What an incredible offensive season he had!

—————————————AB — R — H —HR —RBI —BB—SO—BA———OBP—-OPS

1961 Cash DET———-AL—535 —119–193— 41-–132—124—85—-.361——.487—1.148

1961 Robnsn CIN——NL—545—-117—176—37—124 —71—64—-.323——.404—1.015

1961 Maris NYY———AL—590—-132—159—61—141-—94—67—-.269——.372—-.993

dallasactuary

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
@dallasactuary

Vlad hit .318
Boog, Frank and Norm could never
Hold Guerrero’s jock

😉

I'm sure they could, but why would they want to? I mean, they hold their own jocks all the time, and they're all pretty much the same.

1951WheatiesPremium

@dallasactuary said:

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
@dallasactuary

Vlad hit .318
Boog, Frank and Norm could never
Hold Guerrero’s jock

😉

I'm sure they could, but why would they want to? I mean, they hold their own jocks all the time, and they're all pretty much the same.

That’s not even a haiku!?!?!

dallasactuary

Vlad has a big jock
Boog, Frank, and Norm have the same
Mays laughs at them all

Tabe

@PaulMaul said:
Speaking of Norm Cash, it really sucks that he didn’t win the MVP in 1961 due to Maris. What an incredible offensive season he had!

—————————————AB — R — H —HR —RBI —BB—SO—BA———OBP—-OPS

1961 Cash DET———-AL—535 —119–193— 41-–132—124—85—-.361——.487—1.148

1961 Robnsn CIN——NL—545—-117—176—37—124 —71—64—-.323——.404—1.015

1961 Maris NYY———AL—590—-132—159—61—141-—94—67—-.269——.372—-.993

And 15 years later had an article in Sports Illustrated documenting exactly how he corked his bat that entire year.