Indian Head Cents -- Collecting Advice

PROMETHIUS88

So just a little backstory. The wife and I had started assembling a raw Indian head penny collection years ago. Au to unc with eye appeal. Having young kids at the time didn't always allow for extra money. We sold off the partial set at some point and thought we would start again one day.
Well, now is that time. We are older and have more spare income so we have decided to pick it up again This time we are looking to assemble our set slabbed in 63/64 rb... leaning more to the red side. I started out by picking up the 1858 flying eagle in PCGS 63 then the last 3 coins are MS64. I'll have to check the dates. This weekend was the 1860. I think we had picked up an 1864 and maybe an 1874, I'll have to check.
Anyhow, just it brings up a few questions, and I'll have more along the way. I'm sure there are some experienced Indian collectors here that can chime in.

I have noticed that some of the slabs don't have a color designation at all. Is there a specific reason for this?

How is the actual color determined? For example, is there a range that it can fall under as it seems the red brown arena can be drastically different. And within that same realm, is this possible because the coin is gradually browning while in the holder?

Now, while this is meant to be something that the wife and I can enjoy doing together(since she has no desire to get involved with my sportscard collecting) has the value of these type of Indians stayed pretty level over say a 10-20 year timeframe?

I have additional questions and I'll post some pics of the Indians I have later. Just wanted to get the thread started. Be happy to hear from any other Indian head buffs and even see some pics if you have them!

Thanks!

BaronVonBaugh

I used to have a raw IHC collection. It was sold off several years ago. I still have a 1877 in AU53 and a 1858 J208 S2.

jmlanzaf

1. Default is brown and is not usually designated.
2. RB is, of course, a range.
3. Copper can continue to turn in the holder. The newer holders are better, but the old holders allowed "Red" to go pretty far towards brown in the matter of 10 to 20 years in a safe deposit box.

Personally, I stay away from RED copper. It carries a premium and it can only go in one direction. However, if you like it RED or RB, you should look at things like Interceptshield for storage in order to maximize stability over the long term.

In general, such Indians have been fairly stable in price. However, my crystal ball is broken.

jesbroken

To help answer your value question, go to PCGS CoinFacts and under the value for 1960 regular bust IHC in MS64 click on the value and it will show you a chart that details value change over a 15 year period(2003 to current). You will see that this particular coin has appreciated from roughly $200 to roughly $500. So yes, the IHC's have appreciated in value. I went a different route with my collection and stayed in the XF to MS range and selected only woodgrain coins. Some like them, some do not. Good luck and it's wonderful that you and your wife have a common interest in this hobby, few do.
Here were a few of mine, which I unfortunately no longer own.
Jim

ironmanl63

The flying eagles and early copper nickel cents will not have a color designation. Basically 1858 thru 1864. The exception is 1864 which has both copper nickel and bronze cents. As for color if the coin has 10% or more of its original red color but less than 95% it should grade RB. This varies but is the rule the tpg's try to follow. I started with Indian cents and love the series. Have fun and ask questions. there are a lot of helpful folks on this board.

MsMorrisine

@ironmanl63 said:
The flying eagles and early copper nickel cents will not have a color designation. Basically 1858 thru 1864. The exception is 1864 which has both copper nickel and bronze cents.

Because the copper-nickel cents were brown right off the press because that’s the color of the alloy

asheland

I’ve started buying some. My advice on red copper is to get it in a slab that’s at least 10 years old. You’re probably safe for a stable coin at that point.

lkenefic

After Lincoln Cents, IHCs were my next interest but I was looking at lower end coins... I started this collection with pieces my grandfather found in circulation and dumped into a coffee can.

As others have noted, Red copper can only go one direction... if I was attempting this set again in MS, I'd go for RB designated pieces.

Best of luck!

ironmanl63

@MsMorrisine said:

@ironmanl63 said:
The flying eagles and early copper nickel cents will not have a color designation. Basically 1858 thru 1864. The exception is 1864 which has both copper nickel and bronze cents.

Because the copper-nickel cents were brown right off the press because that’s the color of the alloy

I would not consider or call copper nickel cents brown. A brown bronze Indian cent looks nothing like a copper nickel cent in my opinion. I would say they do not have a color designation because it is a different alloy and does not change colors the same as bronze cents. IMHO.

ironmanl63

Cooper nickel cents were actually referred to as white cents according to coinfacts.

"These were struck when the dark clouds of the Civil War covered America, yet the Philadelphia Mint cranked them out to the tune of 10 million to nearly 50 million per year. Known as "White Cents" because of their pale color, "

ironmanl63

Copper Nickel.

Bronze cent in Brown.

BillJones

I collected Indian Cents when I was in high school and college. I finished the set according to the spaces in a Liberty of Coins album circa 1970. The grade range was VG (Fine by today's "grade-flation" standards, oddly the 1886 date gave me a lot of trouble) to a couple of Mint State coins. The set cost me over $1,000, and I got about a third of what I paid for it when I sold it. It was a combination of paying retail prices and selling at the bottom of the market circa 1973.

First, I am no fan of red copper. I don't like the stuff because it can turn on you and drives up the cost of every coin by a considerable. I view it has an overrated pleasure. I like R&B or Brown pieces.

Second, I would try to stick to Mint State coins for most of the common dates. Circulated coins seem to be a one way street. You pay graded coin prices for them, but the dealers seem to treat them all as coins in Good when it comes time to sell.

Third, I would only buy certified coins. If you buy raw coins, get them certified.

Fourth, if the 1877 seems like too much money in Mint State, consider buying a Proof. Proofs were carelessly made in the 1870s and sometimes the look is not much different. Just remember that the Mint State graded pieces are more highly regarded in the market.

Fifth, if you can't afford Mint State, consider AU-58. Properly graded coins in that grade will not "shame" the rest of the collection.

Fifth, the "heart of the collection" runs from 1866 to 1878. That is where all of the key and semi-key dates are, except for the 1909-S.

Here are a couple of Indian Cents that I have put together strictly for the Civil War era. The look of these pieces please me.

1864, Copper-Nickel with a little bit of toning "color." This is graded PCGS MS-64 and double stickered by CAC and Eagle Eye.

1865 Bronze (no L) PCGS graded MS-65, R&B

ironmanl63

@jmlanzaf said:
1. Default is brown and is not usually designated.

On circulated coins it will not be designated. In ms condition I have never seen bronze cent without the designation.

BillJones

For some reason, NGC labels AU with the "Brown" designation. I suppose that it's possible to have an AU-58 in R&B, but it's a bit unusual. Anything in a lower grade than that which has "red color" would concern me.

shorecoll

I did the set in AU, and then sold them. Funny I had to go to MS-62 in some years to get a consistent AU set (Lol). I did have all the keys and semi-keys in slabs, the commons were not.

BillJones

@shorecoll said:
I did the set in AU, and then sold them. Funny I had to go to MS-62 in some years to get a consistent AU set (Lol). I did have all the keys and semi-keys in slabs, the commons were not.

It's a good strategy to avoid slabs for the common dates in AU. It's not cost effective. The only catch is that many collectors like the "all in an album" look or the "all certified" look.

PROMETHIUS88

Of course it's not technically included in the set, but we are doing the flying eagles as well since I picked up the 58 in MS63. It was in an older PCGS holder and didn't designate the SL or LL which I found interesting. I'm hoping to get the 56 out of the way sooner rather than later but that presents another challenge in itself.

So the early stages, we have the following
1858 PCGS MS63
1860 PCGS MS64
1864CN PCGS MS64
1874 NGC MS64 RB

It's more fun to get some of the earlier dates or mildly more expensive coins out of the way one or two at a time. We both feel that it takes away some of the enjoyment to buy a handful of 90's or 00's commons for the same price.

The other thing that is going to really bother me is having coins in different holders. Not only do the different company holders bother me but also the different generations. That may be something I have to address in the future.

Thanks for the comments and pics so far. The coins posted are gorgeous!

streeter

Rick Snow had a thread many years ago re the variance within the grade for graded 1877 IHC. I found it fascinating. PCGS, not so much. Use the search function. IDK if that thread even exists anymore.
He explained how not to buy the lower end within the grade.

MsMorrisine

You’d have to buy them holdered one at a time. When finished with the set, you’d have to have them reholderEd and crossed over. You might get a few of the cross overs back in details holdered but if you are careful that can be avoided

The big deal will be cost. It may not be worth it. IHC collectors here will have to comment on the costs of getting them all in the same holder.

My suggestion is to get used to different holders… it’s cheaper.

lusterlover

Sounds like a fun quest. Small cents are great. Buy coins that have nice eye appeal and don't get caught up in grades and color designations. Contrary to what others have said, don't be afraid of Red coins if they appeal to you. I have been collecting RD copper for 35 years and have never had one "turn" on me.

oldabeintx

My personal taste runs to RB or BN proofs. The IHC can tone beautifully in MS or PF and carbon spots don't seem to me to be much of a problem, unlike Lincolns for instance. I completed both MS and PF sets some years ago and since sold all but some of the more spectacular coins, I couldn't let them go. Just a great type. 64 is a good "floor" grade for the IHC. I see you have a 63 FE. 63 is an attractive grade for the FE if one shops, not so much for the IHC. Look for the Eagle Eye sticker, they tend to be worth a premium and many have superior eye appeal. Here's one I hung on to, looks better in hand. . PF64BN.

PROMETHIUS88

These are scans of 3 of them. I had tossed them in the safe deposit box The scans aren't good at all, lol. As mentioned above, we are not super concerned over the color designation but trying to get coins that are similar in color and with good eye appeal and luster. I have a pic of the 1860 on my phone that I'll have to post.

I also agree that the MS64 is a solid grade, without breaking the bank. My lcs has a 57FE in 64 that I've been contemplating picking up. Would then have to upgrade the 58.

Those proofs are gorgeous. A member sent me a link where there were several proof IHC's for sale and some of the colors just pop. I've never really realized there was some beautiful toning on pf Indians. We might have to pick up a couple just to have and enjoy.

Lol, as far as the reholding goes, that will be a decision well down the road.

Again, sorry for the horrible scan. It doesn't do these coins any justice at all.

PROMETHIUS88

MsMorrisine

attractive

PROMETHIUS88

@MsMorrisine said:
attractive

Thank you. That is basically what others look like. I'll have to get better pics.

oldabeintx

As far as holders, I've learned to live with different holders, including a few early ANACS holders. The only exceptions are my birth year set and that of my wife, as well as later gold type. I put those in display boxes and they looked best in matched NGC holders. Fortunately I'm not 100 years or more old and later gold is readily available, so finding nice examples in uniform holders wasn't a problem.

winesteven

I’m almost 70% done with my set, and what fun it is! My budget is larger, so my parameters for the dates with color suffixes is each coin must be at least MS65RB or higher. 1859 - 1864 copper/nickel at least MS65. I suggest getting over having 100% of the same “generation” slab. You’ll drive yourself nuts. However, it’s ok if you choose to use just one TPG for your coins (or not)!

I’m ok getting some Red coins. I use the Lighthouse Intercept Shield Slab boxes that are designed to hold 50 slabs, but in reality they hold 60 slabs. Here’s a hotlink for that box. Keep in mind, Intercept says the protection is designed to last for only about 10 years:

https://brooklyngallery.com/intercept-protection-storage-box-for-50-slab-holders-345237.html

If you keep it at home, the key is to store your coins in a cool dry place without high humidity. I use Eva-Dry Reuseable desiccant. Here’s a hotlink for that:
https://www.amazon.com/Improved-Eva-dry-500-Renewable-Dehumidifier/dp/B00BD0FN8A/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3M5UGMZVX4BRK&keywords=Eva+dry&qid=1645515132&sprefix=eva+dry,aps,97&sr=8-3

Three tips:
1. As you know, the RB designation is a super wide range from as little as 5% red, to as much as 95% red. Obviously, the more red, the more desirable. While those RB’s with more red may cost more, the pricing differential is usually only slight. As such, for the sake of eye appeal of your set, I suggest that you set a standard for the RB’s you buy, perhaps no less than about 50% red, but ideally 65% or more. For your BN purchases, try to avoid dark coins, and try to get them with some red, if possible, but definitely buy BN on the “lighter” side if possible, or “milk chocolate” as the darkest.
2. If possible, try to get coins with strong strikes for the grade. Again, at most you’ll only have to pay a tiny bit more for that, if anything at all. Focus on the left few feather tip details at the top of those feathers, along with the top diamond on the ribbon of the four diamonds.
3. Try hard to avoid coins with a lot of carbon spots. The fewer and smaller, the better. Carbon spots ARE a distraction, and when the time comes to sell, whether by you and your wife or your heirs, those with carbon spots will sell for less. Be patient, don’t rush to fill slots!!!!

I hope you found this helpful. Please keep us posted with your progress.

Happy Hunting!

Steve

Tomthemailcarrier

I picked this up from Rick Snow at the Denver ANA show some years back. It’s one of my two 1877 IHC’s. Loved the coin and its color. CAC also stickered it. My other 1877 is PCGS MS 65 RB. Pricey but worth it IMHO.