Planchets for some of the deceptive struck early copper counterfeits (1796 S-85)
burfle23
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I have theorized that the known counterfeiters used cull large cents as planchets for some of the struck counterfeit large and half cents they sold in several selling and auction venues. We have documented their purchase of genuine "source" coins to make dies to strike the fakes as well as a couple of lots of cull large cents.
Metallurgical testing (2 levels of XRF and specific gravity) of several counterfeit half and large cents indicated a link between the counterfeit half cents as a group, especially the 1806 C-1's, but were not a match to the same era genuine half cents.
But the large cents DID match genuine examples also tested; this alone doesn't in itself "prove" the theory as we had not documented any observable undertype on any of the known fakes until now!
Reviewing images of known struck counterfeit 1796 "S-85" variety large cents in preparation of a new article led to amazing discoveries literally right in front of my face!
Interestingly enough, the 1st detail I noticed was the apparent remnants of ONE CENT above and to the left of the main impression. I ignored the "star" in front of the face and blamed my eyes initially until I looked further.
Reviewing the shape and size of the letters led us to consider the undertype may be from a later date large cent and made a comparison to an 1843 small letters reverse example, which better matches the undertype than the 1796 lettering.
I shared the images with Friends and one drew in the apparent back of the lower curl up to the hair bun. This gave us a better reference for the layout and what else to try to discern from the host, which led to the "TY" of LIBERTY standing out!
And of course the "star" is just that, and a detail not seen on a US large cent until 1808 and has no place on a genuine 1796 LC...
CAD drawings from another researcher and friend show the 1843 large cent an apparent pretty good choice!
And the reverse:
We had already proved this one a struck counterfeit through die linked "attribution marks" but seeing a later date undertype on the 1796 pretty much seals the deal on this one!
Comments
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
b-e-a-utiful!
there is so much more visible to me on that 96 than i saw in that distracting other thread. thanks for cleaning it up into its' own!! as if the star wasn't enough, the TY in the face and ONE on the rev. just wow
absolutely stellar presentation and results. and you didn't even edit the darn post once.
Very interesting.....Great detective work. Thanks for the pictures and the narrative. Cheers, RickO
So cool!
Where will you be publishing the article?
Too bad these are numismatic fakes and not some sort of old contemporary counterfeiting shenanigans 🤓
now that i've let it digest a bit more with the new post; it seems the coin isn't as far o/c as i thought initially but now that i look at a regular petite and mature head, it comes back to me JUST how fat the rims are which helps account for the seemingly large gap from that start to the edge of the 96.
again, just stellar work on the outline overlay. i gave a solid B effort many times many years ago tinkering with various features in paint.net and came kinda close to that result but yours is just about as best that can be done short of having a true artist do it.
- i would have tried white or yellow but maybe those colors would be too harsh. that orange/tan is easy on the eyes.
i'm sure there is a much more experienced team that can try to narrow when this was possibly struck. i really don't know how desireable the s-85 has been in the late 19th, early 20th century as a marriage but trying to determine if someone is doing this in the 21st century vs then would certainly tell us how hard to keep an eye out for stuff like this.
have you/them found any silver coins as of yet with such restriking done? it would be interested to see how obvious or not it would be in comparison.
I have submitted it to EAC's Penny-Wise @jayPem . The article starts with a discussion of two different die states of this recent struck counterfeit; the one with undertype here is actually die state two with added denticles where they were missing on the genuine source coin and 1st round of counterfeits. STATES OF was also strengthened on this one posted.
The earlier die state example in my collection is the imaged one below:
I see no obvious undertype on this example.
outstanding research !! thank you for the post and education.
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Well done, and thank you for posting this here for us.
If they used large cents worn down to slicks, wouldn't the weight be low?
I ask because on some lowballs I have, the weight is near 10% lower than minting averages.
Awesome overlay showing the 'time machine' overstrike.
Very interesting! Always there is something to learn here.
Yes, weight was significantly under @davewesen .
The damaged source coin for these was purchased in 2014; we saw the 1st struck clone in 2015.
I have not seen any overstruck silver, or another copper one for that matter!
would you agree there is more copper raw than in holders sitting in collections and dealer cases? even in the value range of $1k-$7k or so? with so many having pitting issues, i bet many people don't send them off either for grading and therefore not auction firms so looking at the websites probably isn't as effective as i initially thought.
i also wanted to say for a while, while pcgs, ngc, anacs have certain missed many of these class V? counterfeits, i'm sure they've caught many as well. just depends on whom saw them and how attentive they were. perhaps someone in the know could find out if they haven't already if pcgs has kept an extensive database on counterfeits that have come through. would be a lot to trudge through but would have to yield some gems.
would you agree there is more copper raw than in holders sitting in collections and dealer cases? even in the value range of $1k-$7k or so?
I would agree there is. A lot of it isn’t worth slabbing, or would genny grade anyway, for hosts of reasons. The major EAC dealers have definitely increased the slab coins they carry. Most of my better cents were bought slabbed, and I submitted 8 more at FUN, including a pair of wreath cents. Even if they genny, I think they’ll still be more marketable in the long run, given the growing preponderance of fakes.
Great analysis!
My summary article appeared in the April issue of EAC's Penny-Wise; the subject overstruck example is now in a TPG holder as genuine...
Dang, this is an interesting thread. Neat stuff here.
I once had a 1795 half cent struck on a Talbot Allum & Lee token.
Didn't notice for a long time.
https://i.postimg.cc/L58Vv1cT/half-cent.jpg
Really enjoyed more after noticing.
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did someone slip it in through the tpg(s) since it hit your radar. or it was already in a holder?
Wow thanks for sharing.
Wow, genuine but still considered counterfeit in a way? So cool
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Definitely counterfeit but pushes the definition of "over strikes" commonly seen...