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No CAC 2nd time around

I had a 1908 $2 1/2 gold Indian ms63 in an old rattler holder with a CAC bean on it. Looked pretty good so I cracked it out and sent it in raw. Came back ms63. Sent it back to CAC and it didn't sticker. Ouch! Consistency? Go figure.

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  • P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does CAC have an incentive to sticker rattlers? Since they’re a sight-unseen buyer, and it stands to reason that rattlers are generally are worth more, wouldn’t it be objectively better to have CAC stickers on those coins?

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What color bean?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • it was only a Green bean

  • P0CKETCHANGEP0CKETCHANGE Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crypto said:
    Cac looks at the complete package, your coin is worth less in a new holder and may not be up their bid standards. The increased liquidity of the rattler make eyes a little more forgiving.

    This is interesting if accurate, and what I was inquiring about in my comment. With as many CAC threads as we’ve had here, I don’t remember this aspect of their evaluation coming up.

    Nothing is as expensive as free money.

  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It may have been a borderline green bean and landed on the other side on a resubmit. You can always resubmit and ask for JA to explain his reasons.

  • Was thinking about a resubmit but with all the shipping costs starting to add up I just decided not to deal with it anymore and just sell it at a small loss at GC

  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,441 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oldrattler said:
    I had a 1908 $2 1/2 gold Indian ms63 in an old rattler holder with a CAC bean on it. Looked pretty good so I cracked it out and sent it in raw. Came back ms63. Sent it back to CAC and it didn't sticker. Ouch! Consistency? Go figure.

    I have had some success playing this game, but in the end it is the coin. If they see something they don't like, you can try many times. I know of an amazing coin that was sent in 7 times by different people and failed every time. All submitters were upset about it and it is a truly great coin, but CAC saw something they did not like. So be it and their right.

    Best, SH


    Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Give up on a rattler TV

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2022 8:40PM

    @Crypto said:
    Cac looks at the complete package, your coin is worth less in a new holder and may not be up their bid standards. The increased liquidity of the rattler make eyes a little more forgiving. That said incuse Indians are one of the hardest series to grade consistently

    Very interesting if CAC bean considers age of holders. I never thought about it but it makes a lot of sense from a liquidity and demand perspective.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    Very interesting if CAC bean considers age of holders. I never thought about it but it makes a lot of sense from a liquidity and demand perspective.

    While I agree with liquidity and demand increasing with a very old holder, I’d be shocked if J. A. takes that into account at all. I believe he looks ONLY at the coin to make a determination if it passes or not.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2022 9:16PM

    @winesteven said:

    @Zoins said:

    Very interesting if CAC bean considers age of holders. I never thought about it but it makes a lot of sense from a liquidity and demand perspective.

    While I agree with liquidity and demand increasing with a very old holder, I’d be shocked if J. A. takes that into account at all. I believe he looks ONLY at the coin to make a determination if it passes or not.

    Steve

    I’m not sure about it either way but @Crypto indicates it’s considered. It also provides a reason for the coin not beaning in a modern holder with the same grade.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I still disagree. I believe it didn’t sticker with the new cert number since J.A. was not aware it was the same coin that originally stickered in the same grade, and since the line separating a C coin from a B coin is subjective, the coin on that border just went the other way with the second (newer) cert.

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:
    I still disagree. I believe it didn’t sticker with the new cert number since J.A. was not aware it was the same coin that originally stickered in the same grade, and since the line separating a C coin from a B coin is subjective, the coin on that border just went the other way with the second (newer) cert.

    Good thing we have a forums we can ask on :)

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just posted this on the other forum.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:

    @oldrattler said:
    I had a 1908 $2 1/2 gold Indian ms63 in an old rattler holder with a CAC bean on it. Looked pretty good so I cracked it out and sent it in raw. Came back ms63. Sent it back to CAC and it didn't sticker. Ouch! Consistency? Go figure.

    I have had some success playing this game, but in the end it is the coin. If they see something they don't like, you can try many times. I know of an amazing coin that was sent in 7 times by different people and failed every time. All submitters were upset about it and it is a truly great coin, but CAC saw something they did not like. So be it and their right.

    Best, SH

    My understanding is that CAC keeps a record of those coins that they reject and they check these records to see if a coin had been already submitted when any new submission comes in. If you are going to resubmit a coin numerous times, you're wasting your time and money unless you get the coin reslabbed each time with a new serial number.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • mavs2583mavs2583 Posts: 200 ✭✭✭✭

    I’m curious, what grade were you thinking it would regrade as?

  • MS64 of course. That would have been a nice price jump. But I've had $2 1/2 Indians in rattlers jump from ms63 to ms65 before as I'd guess others on this forum have experienced also

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I believe it is the coin that earns the sticker, not the holder. Remember, grading is not science, it is informed opinion... and likely the coin is borderline. The graders almost assuredly were a different group the second time through, and the decision went the other way. Cheers, RickO

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oldrattler said:
    MS64 of course. That would have been a nice price jump. But I've had $2 1/2 Indians in rattlers jump from ms63 to ms65 before as I'd guess others on this forum have experienced also

    If your coin was worthy of a higher grade, wouldn't CAC have given it a gold sticker? When you play the crack-out game, you sometimes lose. Use this as a learning experience.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • shishshish Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2022 5:25AM

    Many people share this opinion "incuse Indians are one of the hardest series to grade consistently."

    Not exactly accurate "If you are going to resubmit a coin numerous times, you're wasting your time and money unless you get the coin re-slabbed each time with a new serial number."

    JA said that there is a small (approximately 5%) chance that coins submitted for a second time will be approved. I think your chances might be improved if the coin has a new serial number.

    Liberty Seated and Trade Dollar Specialist
  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,441 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2022 6:03AM

    @PerryHall said:
    My understanding is that CAC keeps a record of those coins that they reject and they check these records to see if a coin had been already submitted when any new submission comes in. If you are going to resubmit a coin numerous times, you're wasting your time and money unless you get the coin reslabbed each time with a new serial number. a

    When a coin goes back to CAC in the same holder, it is called reconsideration and they look at it again even when they have a record that it was rejected previously. At least they do that for some I have submitted.

    Best, SH


    Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,441 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2022 6:08AM

    @oldrattler said:
    I had a 1908 $2 1/2 gold Indian ms63 in an old rattler holder with a CAC bean on it. Looked pretty good so I cracked it out and sent it in raw. Came back ms63. Sent it back to CAC and it didn't sticker. Ouch! Consistency? Go figure.

    Back to the original thread comment - if you send in your previous cert# and and image of the coin in the original slab, they bean it almost every time, if fact, I have done that dozens of times and each one beaned.

    Best, SH


    Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @oldrattler said:
    MS64 of course. That would have been a nice price jump. But I've had $2 1/2 Indians in rattlers jump from ms63 to ms65 before as I'd guess others on this forum have experienced also

    If your coin was worthy of a higher grade, wouldn't CAC have given it a gold sticker? When you play the crack-out game, you sometimes lose. Use this as a learning experience.

    Not necessarily. There have been quite a few reports of a green beaned coin getting a full grade bump and getting green beaned again.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @oldrattler said:
    MS64 of course. That would have been a nice price jump. But I've had $2 1/2 Indians in rattlers jump from ms63 to ms65 before as I'd guess others on this forum have experienced also

    If your coin was worthy of a higher grade, wouldn't CAC have given it a gold sticker? When you play the crack-out game, you sometimes lose. Use this as a learning experience.

    Not necessarily. There have been quite a few reports of a green beaned coin getting a full grade bump and getting green beaned again.

    If it green beaned at the higher grade, shouldn't it have gold beaned at the original lower grade? This is getting confusing.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @Zoins said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @oldrattler said:
    MS64 of course. That would have been a nice price jump. But I've had $2 1/2 Indians in rattlers jump from ms63 to ms65 before as I'd guess others on this forum have experienced also

    If your coin was worthy of a higher grade, wouldn't CAC have given it a gold sticker? When you play the crack-out game, you sometimes lose. Use this as a learning experience.

    Not necessarily. There have been quite a few reports of a green beaned coin getting a full grade bump and getting green beaned again.

    If it green beaned at the higher grade, shouldn't it have gold beaned at the original lower grade? This is getting confusing.

    I don't know about should or not. You'd need to ask JA for that. I just look at the coins, grades and stickers.

  • calgolddivercalgolddiver Posts: 1,385 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Rattler & bean for me ... why chase an upgrade? Seems in this case it did not turn out very well.

    Top 25 Type Set 1792 to present

    Top 10 Cal Fractional Type Set

    successful BST with Ankurj, BigAl, Bullsitter, CommemKing, DCW(7), Elmerfusterpuck, Joelewis, Mach1ne, Minuteman810430, Modcrewman, Nankraut, Nederveit2, Philographer(5), Realgator, Silverpop, SurfinxHI, TomB and Yorkshireman(3)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thefinn said:
    Your handle is “Oldrattler” and you cracked out an old rattler?
    Isn’t that ironic… don’t you think.

    Maybe his last name is "Rattler". :)

  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do you have a picture of the coin?

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @winesteven said:

    @Zoins said:

    Very interesting if CAC bean considers age of holders. I never thought about it but it makes a lot of sense from a liquidity and demand perspective.

    While I agree with liquidity and demand increasing with a very old holder, I’d be shocked if J. A. takes that into account at all. I believe he looks ONLY at the coin to make a determination if it passes or not.

    Steve

    I’m not sure about it either way but @Crypto indicates it’s considered. It also provides a reason for the coin not beaning in a modern holder with the same grade.

    CAC makes a market in CAC coins, considering the impact collectible holders have on liquidity/value and their mission statement is to grade the holder. It would be naïve to think it wasn't considered even if just at the eye appeal level.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Call me naive, but i respectfully disagree. I truly believe when it comes time to decide if a coin merits a sticker, I believe the holder does not come into play, but they look at only the coin!

    I've posted this on the CAC forum, and while other members have chimed in (and they agree with me), my opinion and those that agree with me don't mean anything until we hear from CAC. Still waiting.

    By the way, while CAC "makes a market", they don't automatically buy everything that's offered to them at wholesale rates. I believe (but i could be wrong), that they could pass on a coin offered to them, or instead offer a price lower than wholesale if they really don't want it.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • al410al410 Posts: 2,403 ✭✭✭✭

    consistency is no more or less then grading companies. Submit resubmit until you get what you want or not. These companies are obviously for money making and resubmissions are part of that. I don't know much about CAC but grading companies do not discourage resubmissions. Who is looking at your coin matters as much as grading guidelines in my opinion.
    Al

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    On the heads up of MFeld I took a look at this thread and now have an entirely different opinion.

    I also had a $20 Liberty Double Eagle in a PCGS slab. It did not sticker and had a red dot. . I came running down to CAC and asked why. JA explained that the coin had a small area of PVC. He had meant to speak to me about this but I missed the call. He suggested I send it back to PCGS to request that they apply acetone to the coin and vremove the PVC. and then reslab the coin.

    This was 10 years ago when PCGS would do the added service at no extra charge.

    When PCGS sent the coin back I brought it to JA andb he immediately stickiered it.

    I am not stating that this is the reason the slab failed the stickering but it is possible.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Crypto said:

    @Zoins said:

    @winesteven said:

    @Zoins said:

    Very interesting if CAC bean considers age of holders. I never thought about it but it makes a lot of sense from a liquidity and demand perspective.

    While I agree with liquidity and demand increasing with a very old holder, I’d be shocked if J. A. takes that into account at all. I believe he looks ONLY at the coin to make a determination if it passes or not.

    Steve

    I’m not sure about it either way but @Crypto indicates it’s considered. It also provides a reason for the coin not beaning in a modern holder with the same grade.

    CAC makes a market in CAC coins, considering the impact collectible holders have on liquidity/value and their mission statement is to grade the holder. It would be naïve to think it wasn't considered even if just at the eye appeal level.

    I can’t imagine that CAC would look at an MS63 Indian quarter eagle and take its holder into consideration, when deciding whether to sticker the coin.

    You don’t think a collectible holder increases the appeal of a coin? You think CAC doesn’t?

    Even if subconsciously, I don’t see how they could ignore it. Can’t you see an equation where a honest but unremarkable coin gets a bump into “B coin” status due to its packaging.

    Modern coin grading is about the total coin so much more there the classic technical wear levels. This concept is about factoring in the mint surface, luster, strike and eye appeal. It is already happened but the holder is now part of that total package with quantifiable degrees of desirability. There are A holders and D holders and everything in between.

    Grades and eye appeal are just abstract concepts trying to peg value and liquidity, the holder plays a big a part now days and a CAC sticker means a good package. I simply don’t see a scenario where they don’t factor it in, heck they already don’t allow D & C holders for consideration. A rattler isn’t viewed the same as an early 2000s NGC by anybody, why would cac be blind to it?

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No doubt “The Market” adds value and demand to coins in OGH’s. I never said anything contrary to that. But it’s apples to oranges saying that CAC takes the holder into account in their determination if a coin is solid for the grade (or not)!!!!!

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,368 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:
    No doubt “The Market” adds value and demand to coins in OGH’s. I never said anything contrary to that. But it’s apples to oranges saying that CAC takes the holder into account in their determination if a coin is solid for the grade (or not)!!!!!

    Steve

    Eye appeal is subjective and coins look different in different holders. While I can’t speak for which part of the margins it effects and clearly a coin can still fail in a great holder and pass in an unremarkable one. Esp type coins like an MS63 quarter eagle need a little something extra to standout on the floor and holders can give them that pop.

    It should be noted the technical merits coin were all but proven with the crack out and same grade but yet CAC didn’t like it as much. I find it strange people would rather credit it to inconsistency of the opinions they value so much rather than the obvious that the coin lost something in the value proposition that made it just another commercial UNC in a sea of them.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @al410 said:
    consistency is no more or less then grading companies. Submit resubmit until you get what you want or not. These companies are obviously for money making and resubmissions are part of that. I don't know much about CAC but grading companies do not discourage resubmissions. Who is looking at your coin matters as much as grading guidelines in my opinion.
    Al

    CAC doesn't charge for evaluation. If they wanted to make money, they'd sticker everything. So you might want to try again.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭

    polish your holder before submitting?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions

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