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Eisenhower FS-103 and FS-106 - too many mis-attributions

SPalladinoSPalladino Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭✭

With the Richard Carlson FS-103 plate coin now in hand, I can define reliable markers for the true FS-103. Further, I have discovered that the true FS-103 had two reverse die pairings.

Read here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQt1gCw1XyrM9vAlxp5ItctDl9fQoIJ9G-hIm5mJZZW52g4NOKVKoXXZNW7ThLPKQrKMixDCBZSZOmh/pub

Also, my recent FS-106 article: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSYxDassYrwSYIMPaCWEvsqNXbkEVeS2oFj2tU9xPaXwpGAqihG4hTXNray9eK7ulkssEJZOrOmTEFw/pub

In a study of attributed coins in both cases, mis-attributions were found to be too numerous.

Steve Palladino
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor

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    LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SPalladino said:
    In a study of attributed coins in both cases, mis-attributions were found to be too numerous.

    let me say this. the tpgs do have generic attributions that can cover multiple die pairings (ugh). there is a reason anacs and icg (and a good handful to vss and segs) see an innumerable amount of coins for attribution. they simply run a coin all the way to ground and cover virtually everything. fwiw i think attributing everything is easier than counterfeit detection.

    so while i'm sure they mis-attribute coins, some of it is blanket policy attribution unfortunately and for those that study up on what goes into what holder, there are some nice deals to be had and of course, frustration by those that find their coins mis-attributed or blanket policied.

    with that said, do you think it has 2 reverse pairings, or at least two?

    nice site and work btw. amazing what that level of attention to detail uncovers. one of the many reasons i like vams so much. 6,000+. sheesh. i think not even the colonials can boast such a catalog, right?

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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    SPalladinoSPalladino Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    let me say this. the tpgs do have generic attributions that can cover multiple die pairings (ugh). ....
    so while i'm sure they mis-attribute coins, some of it is blanket policy attribution unfortunately....

    In the Ike series, examples of blanket policy generic attributions can be seen in the FS-401 (typically two 1971-S peg leg die varieties get attributed), and the FS-501 (typically two 1971-S S/S RPM die varieties get attributed). In the case of the FS-103 and FS-106, it is certainly a case of blanket policy generic attributions, but also contributory are poorly documented key markers, and poor attribution. The latter is demonstrated in the FS-106, where 10 of 44 (23%) PCGS-attributed FS-106 coins in this study bore the serif-R (in LIBERTY) (ODV-004) obverses - not the peg leg R (ODV-006) that must be present for the FS-106. Blanket policy generic attributions does not fully explain missing a key attribution marker like a peg leg vs serif R.

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    with that said, do you think it has 2 reverse pairings, or at least two?

    I'm certain there were two reverse pairings for the FS-103 obverse. Rationale presented in the article.

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    nice site and work btw. amazing what that level of attention to detail uncovers.

    Thank you.

    Steve Palladino
    - Ike Group member
    - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
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    IkesTIkesT Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks so much for doing this, Steve! I do not think it is too much to ask for these varieties to be attributed correctly. As you say, many coins can be screened out fairly easily, with such pickup points as the serif R and mint mark placement. The Kalantzis MMP lines are great, but it is worth pointing out that the mint mark placements on some of the frequently misattributed DDO's are so far off as to be easily seen at a glance.

    For those not familiar with the Eisenhower 1971 S Proof FS-103 and FS-106 DDO's, I would briefly summarize by saying that, in each case, there are several DDO's without FS numbers that are frequently misattributed as the FS varieties. More often, they tend to be DDO's that, like the FS varieties, have a relatively large spread to the doubling, although this is not always the case.

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    wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 28, 2022 8:06PM

    ‘there are several DDO's without FS numbers that are frequently misattributed as the FS varieties. ‘

    Steve. Great work with the articles!

    My son Justin shows me all the time the large spread to the doubling coins with the serif-R that are not FS-106 but in his view equally (or near equally) impressive varieties to the 106. Yet, these are not in the CPG. Since PCGS obviously likes these as well through the study now showing 23% of 106’s are slabbed incorrectly with the serif -R, can (and should) the most impressive serif-R doubling coins (OBV-004) be added as a recognized variety in the CPG, provided an FS number and added to the PCGS variety sets? These coins deserve to be added to the variety sets in my view as they are (near) equally impressive to 106 but with the serif-R. Thoughts?

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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    IkesTIkesT Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin I agree with you. More of the 71-S DDO's are worthy of attribution in their own right and should be added to CPG.

    The Ike Group has a DIVA designation for one of the nicer serif R varieties:

    https://www.ikegroup.info/DIVA listings/1971 S Proof/1S2-320.pdf

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    SPalladinoSPalladino Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin - I agree.

    @IkesT Links to exactly such a coin - a 1971-S proof with a serif-R that is a FS-106 look-alike.

    Steve Palladino
    - Ike Group member
    - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
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    wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,777 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the “FS-106” look-alike gets into the CPG and PCGS then places it in the Ike variety sets, the many owners of the mistaken FS-106 coins can move their coins over to the new variety number and the Ike clean up gets underway in a productive manner. No one likely even has to seek a claim with PCGS as the new variety number (which many will change into) might be more valuable than FS-106 today (but as the mistakes clean up and the “pop’ drops on 106, I would expect the value of 106 to likely rise with the addition of the companion variety).

    And, while we are at it, why not also add a cool and very scarce variety like the 1971-S “night crawler” to the CPG?

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I will have to study this information (links and discussion) much more. Did not realize there is so much to the Ike dollars.... I have quite a few ... mostly raw or Mint boxes. Snow storm currently whacking this area... might be a good day to get them out of the cabinet. Uh oh... work calling.... might have to go in... :/ Cheers, RickO

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    SPalladinoSPalladino Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2022 10:58AM

    @wondercoin -
    I think that adding the serif-R FS-106 look-alike (DIVA 1S2-320) would be a great add, and splendid solution as you suggest.

    I am not privy to exactly what the CPG will list in the 6th edition, but I am aware that there may be some Ike additions. I do hope that the "nightcrawler" will be among the new listings (DIVa-401). I also recall some CPG conversation about peg-legs from other Ike years.

    Steve Palladino
    - Ike Group member
    - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
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    SPalladinoSPalladino Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    Did not realize there is so much to the Ike dollars....

    Happy hunting - I hope you find some goodies.

    People can say what they will about the relative artistic merits or the metal composition of the Ike dollar, but:

    • the series is short and easy to collect
    • the series is replete with varieties and errors
    • the straddles a historically significant period for the mint - lots of interesting background with the Ike dollar
    Steve Palladino
    - Ike Group member
    - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
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    SPalladinoSPalladino Posts: 843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not in the articles, but relative to the FS-103 and FS-106 (and other 1971-S silver proof varieties):
    The reported average obverse die life for Ike proofs in 1971 was 2500 coins.

    If one identifies a 71-S Ike proof single-die variety (as in the articles), one narrows the original mintage to about 2500 coins. Of course, there could be more or less. A die could have been removed from production early due to die breaks (as was likely the case with the FS-103 first reverse). And, who knows how many of the original mintage may have been lost to damage, melt, etc?

    Current population from three TPG companies (including any mis-attributed coins):

    Steve Palladino
    - Ike Group member
    - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor

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