Counterstamped Large Cent- Does Anyone Recognize It?

cmerlo1

I acquired this at the Houston Money Show on Friday. Has anyone seen this counterstamp before? The middle character is interesting.

Namvet69

Kinda looks like a series of overlapping partial numerical strikes. But that's just me. Peace Roy

NumisOxide

Neat pickup.

jayPem

Cool one, Id have grabbed it for sure!
Probably one of the multitude of one off stamps, but you never know 🤔

Zoins

Anyone have a copy of Brunk to check?

ricko

Interesting.... That middle character is unique.... Must have had a personal significance. Cheers, RickO

cmerlo1

@Zoins said:
Anyone have a copy of Brunk to check?

Bump. Paging @tokenpro

BuffaloIronTail

@Namvet69 said:
Kinda looks like a series of overlapping partial numerical strikes. But that's just me. Peace Roy

Looks like a comma at the top of the middle symbol.

Pete

Namvet69

Kinda looks like a 5 also.

oldabeintx

I though perhaps an earlier variation of an ampersand, but no match that I could find.

Aotearoa

Elizabeth Rex? (Queen Elizabeth)

tokenpro

Damn you @cmerlo1. It's a busy day for me today with dinner & a college basketball game on tap tonight

That c/s tripped a tingling in the cobwebs that I had seen that middle letter/symbol before so I figured I'd give it a quick shot. I grabbed Brunk and started in with the alphabetical index in the back which includes one-offs and could not find anything using the unknown as either an O or as a symbol or spacer. The closest is Brunk E-7 which is a listing for E & R. Brunk illustrates very few two and three letter c/s so it is doubtful that the non-pictured E-7 is the piece. I was even more sure that I've seen that symbol so I started at the back of Brunk and paged through the illustrations on every page of the catalog to see if I could find the symbol on one of the many photographs. I figured if I could find a second occurrence then it just might be a meaningful symbol from the period understood by all, something as simple as "and" or a symbol of partnership or something else along that line of thought. I could not find another occurrence in the photos.

Now I had some time invested and an image in my mind still nagging away. I happened to have my counterstamps handy as I planned on integrating some new items into the boxes when time permitted. (I've set back c/s on silver coins for a long time but I also have a large group of jeweler/gunsmith style c/s on copper). The picture in my mind showed the c/s in silver so I started with the silver dollars and worked back through the halves, quarters, twenty cent, dimes, half dimes and three cent silvers with nary a trace of that symbol. I figured I was hip deep already so I started through the world, Canadian & Spanish Colonial host coins again finding nada. By this time it was a contest with myself to see if my memory was still somewhat functioning or if that last sampler twelve pack of New Belgium IPAs had permanently numbed a few more key synapses.

All in, I dove into the minor coinage, ending up with the half cents and then finally into the large cents. Finally, the third coin from the end of the last double row box reassured me that the memory is still sputtering along going into tonight's pre-game preparation at a campus brew pub but also strongly reinforced the thought that many numismatic victories are more than a little bit Pyrrhic in nature (but victories nonetheless).

See the post below for what I found.

tokenpro

Oh well.

cmerlo1

@tokenpro said:
Damn you @cmerlo1. It's a busy day for me today with dinner & a college basketball game on tap tonight

That c/s tripped a tingling in the cobwebs that I had seen that middle letter/symbol before so I figured I'd give it a quick shot. I grabbed Brunk and started in with the alphabetical index in the back which includes one-offs and could not find anything using the unknown as either an O or as a symbol or spacer. The closest is Brunk E-7 which is a listing for E & R. Brunk illustrates very few two and three letter c/s so it is doubtful that the non-pictured E-7 is the piece. I was even more sure that I've seen that symbol so I started at the back of Brunk and paged through the illustrations on every page of the catalog to see if I could find the symbol on one of the many photographs. I figured if I could find a second occurrence then it just might be a meaningful symbol from the period understood by all, something as simple as "and" or a symbol of partnership or something else along that line of thought. I could not find another occurrence in the photos.

Now I had some time invested and an image in my mind still nagging away. I happened to have my counterstamps handy as I planned on integrating some new items into the boxes when time permitted. (I've set back c/s on silver coins for a long time but I also have a large group of jeweler/gunsmith style c/s on copper). The picture in my mind showed the c/s in silver so I started with the silver dollars and worked back through the halves, quarters, twenty cent, dimes, half dimes and three cent silvers with nary a trace of that symbol. I figured I was hip deep already so I started through the world, Canadian & Spanish Colonial host coins again finding nada. By this time it was a contest with myself to see if my memory was still somewhat functioning or if that last sampler twelve pack of New Belgium IPAs had permanently numbed a few more key synapses.

All in, I dove into the minor coinage, ending up with the half cents and then finally into the large cents. Finally, the third coin from the end of the last double row box reassured me that the memory is still sputtering along going into tonight's pre-game preparation at a campus brew pub but also strongly reinforced the thought that many numismatic victories are more than a little bit Pyrrhic in nature (but victories nonetheless).

See the post below for what I found.

WOW! Thanks, @tokenpro !

I really appreciate your time on this. It's very interesting that other coins exist with this counterstamp, and great that you have one. It's still a mystery as to who was doing these, I suppose, but it does make it more than a one-off 'someone playing with a set of punches' C/S.

May your dinner be delicious, your beer cold, and your team victorious!

Namvet69

Well I'll be dipped in ...... @tokenpro impressive research. Peace Roy

tokenpro

It would have been a little more satisfying if it had resulted in something more than confirming a second example (thus qualifying it for front-of-the-catalog status if the format is kept the same). Actually it was time well spent reacquainting myself with a number of pieces that I haven't seen for some time.

The bad part is that I had used a bunch of off-brand Canadian 2x2 cardboards to house a good part of the large cents and half dollars. They seemed a bit funky back when purchased and now the window film has stuck to the film in front & in back of each. It didn't harm anything but there is a whole lot of reholdering in my future.

I did image a few pieces for fun while I was searching -- I'm guessing this half might be marked for J Cannon?

LanceNewmanOCC

like tokenpro, the spidey senses have been tingling on this one. i didn't turn up anything but reading this updated version of this thread, perhaps something on some spoons seems familiar as counterstamps if someone is into those. that middle symbol is too unique to be confused with much else.

i tried google lensing the large cent from the op, even when i cropped down just the letters/symbol and turned up nothing after several attempts. i will try again with the new coins posted as the emphasis on the letters/symbol is much more pronounced with less distracting features being much more worn specimens, hopefully for the best. will report back if i get any dings.

here are the coins tokenpro posted

tokenpro

Actually it is one coin (Draped Bust Large Cent) counterstamped on each side. I have an email out to the counterstamp whisperer to see if he has any insight into the symbol.

jayPem

Win for both teams here.. now each of your one offs has found a mate 😄

MedalCollector

How about a few more? From past ebay sales…

IkesT

It seems the two examples were counterstamped with a different set of stamps. The "E" and "R" letters aren't an exact match, nor is the middle character. Interesting!

jayPem

Great observation 👆
But it's hard to say with stamps?
Look at the tokenpro example that's struck on both sides.
You would assume that the same stamp was used for each side, but they look different, in the same way your example shows.
The amount of force in the hammer blow, the punch possibly being at a slight angle.. could affect the shape of the stamp.
Some chopmark guys were discussing this sort of thing on here no too long ago..

IkesT

@jayPem said:
Great observation 👆
But it's hard to say with stamps?
Look at the tokenpro example that's struck on both sides.
You would assume that the same stamp was used for each side, but they look different, in the same way your example shows.

That's true - the "R" doesn't match from one side to the other on the @tokenpro example. I see your point, although I'm also not sure they used the same "R" punch on both sides. It seems odd to use two different punches on one coin, I agree, but the upper left serif on the "R" looks quite different in both cases.

I made my post before I saw the one immediately before by @GoldenEgg - but one thing that jumps out looking at all examples is that only the @cmerlo example has that little extra arm inside the middle character:

jayPem

Your right! That little arm is a bit of a give away.. I'm also wondering if all three are on one stamp, or done individually?
There is a consistent spacing on all the examples, with the central character a bit close to the R than the E.
I think there is more than one stamp, and they are joined into one punch.
At least I'd like to think that's the way they did it...🤔

JBK

The "arm" had me fooled at first but on closer look I think that's the ear in the coin's design.

IkesT

@JBK said:
The "arm" had me fooled at first but on closer look I think that's the ear in the coin's design.

Thanks; I think you're right - they just blend together very well.

Some of the "R" letters still look different to me, but maybe because they were double-punched?

JBK

I do see some differences between some of the counterstamps, but the differences are between lighter and heavier struck counterstamps. It might be that the most protruding edge of the punch was one shape while the letter farther down had a heavier width/style. In that scenario a lighter stamping might appear different than a deeper one.

Namvet69

I've been following this study and I concur on the errant shape could be the ear. Thanks for all the insight. Peace Roy

cmerlo1

@Namvet69 said:
I've been following this study and I concur on the errant shape could be the ear. Thanks for all the insight. Peace Roy

I looked at it under my microscope and can confirm it is definitely Liberty's ear. I'm glad I bumped this thread yesterday- it has definitely gotten interesting! Thanks to all involved!