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Inexperienced Collector needs opinions on my 1875 20c

I received this 1875 20c coin as a gift and someone told me they thought it might be a proof, but I don’t have the experience to know for myself. Any thoughts? https://imgur.com/a/tBoTcuA

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Welcome to the forum and that’s a nice gift to have received.

    My guess is that the coin’s a Proof, but either way, it merits professional grading.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Be careful with it and do not try to clean it in any way. ;)

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    KindaNewishKindaNewish Posts: 827 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice BF-1, but not a proof.

    Bottom of the eagles right wing will be fully struck up even with an impared proof. Also the rims would be squared off.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,426 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    Welcome to the forum and that’s a nice gift to have received.

    My guess is that the coin’s a Proof, but either way, it merits professional grading.

    @MFeld Shouldn't a proof coin have a sharply squared rim? I was thinking it's more likely Proof Like. Very nice coin. B)

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Welcome to the forum Ethan. Be extra careful when you remove it from the 2x2 to place in a flip for shipping to grading company. Pierce the plastic to remove the coin and do not pull the staples apart. Would be a shame to staple scratch such a beauty. If genuine, that is one gorgeous specimen. Congrats for having a very special friend/family member to give such a gift.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you are thinking about having it graded a reputable dealer in your area may be able to help.
    If you don't have a dealer in your area you could post your city & state for recommendations in your area.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:
    Welcome to the forum and that’s a nice gift to have received.

    My guess is that the coin’s a Proof, but either way, it merits professional grading.

    @MFeld Shouldn't a proof coin have a sharply squared rim? I was thinking it's more likely Proof Like. Very nice coin. B)

    That certainly gives me pause. The coin looks to have reflective surfaces, however, and it would be very unusual for a business strike of that date to display Prooflike surfaces. So either the coin’s been polished, the images are distorted, it’s a poorly made proof or it’s a very unusual PL example.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,426 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:
    Welcome to the forum and that’s a nice gift to have received.

    My guess is that the coin’s a Proof, but either way, it merits professional grading.

    @MFeld Shouldn't a proof coin have a sharply squared rim? I was thinking it's more likely Proof Like. Very nice coin. B)

    That certainly gives me pause. The coin looks to have reflective surfaces, however, and it would be very unusual for a business strike of that date to display Prooflike surfaces. So either the coin’s been polished, the images are distorted, it’s a poorly made proof or it’s a very unusual PL example.

    In other words, send it to PCGS or NGC so professional graders can evaluate it in hand and render an informed opinion.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:
    Welcome to the forum and that’s a nice gift to have received.

    My guess is that the coin’s a Proof, but either way, it merits professional grading.

    @MFeld Shouldn't a proof coin have a sharply squared rim? I was thinking it's more likely Proof Like. Very nice coin. B)

    That certainly gives me pause. The coin looks to have reflective surfaces, however, and it would be very unusual for a business strike of that date to display Prooflike surfaces. So either the coin’s been polished, the images are distorted, it’s a poorly made proof or it’s a very unusual PL example.

    In other words, send it to PCGS or NGC so professional graders can evaluate it in hand and render an informed opinion.

    Yes, which is why I used the word “guess” and included “...but either way, it merits professional grading.”

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    @MFeld said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:
    Welcome to the forum and that’s a nice gift to have received.

    My guess is that the coin’s a Proof, but either way, it merits professional grading.

    @MFeld Shouldn't a proof coin have a sharply squared rim? I was thinking it's more likely Proof Like. Very nice coin. B)

    That certainly gives me pause. The coin looks to have reflective surfaces, however, and it would be very unusual for a business strike of that date to display Prooflike surfaces. So either the coin’s been polished, the images are distorted, it’s a poorly made proof or it’s a very unusual PL example.

    It’s possible the coin was polished because it had multiple owners before me, but it hasn’t left the holder since I got it. There’s also a video in the Imgur link that might be clearer than the pictures.

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hope it isn't a proof. It has more appeal as a PL mintstate coin, IMHO.

    peacockcoins

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ethan5203 said:

    @MFeld said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:
    Welcome to the forum and that’s a nice gift to have received.

    My guess is that the coin’s a Proof, but either way, it merits professional grading.

    @MFeld Shouldn't a proof coin have a sharply squared rim? I was thinking it's more likely Proof Like. Very nice coin. B)

    That certainly gives me pause. The coin looks to have reflective surfaces, however, and it would be very unusual for a business strike of that date to display Prooflike surfaces. So either the coin’s been polished, the images are distorted, it’s a poorly made proof or it’s a very unusual PL example.

    It’s possible the coin was polished because it had multiple owners before me, but it hasn’t left the holder since I got it. There’s also a video in the Imgur link that might be clearer than the pictures.

    I’d seen the video before I posted my initial reply. If you’d care to post your zip code, perhaps I or someone else could make a recommendation of a dealer in your area to whom you could show the coin.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like it’s a proof, I would send it in what do you have to lose and it looks like a nice coin. A very nice gift good luck and let us know how it works out for you.



    Hoard the keys.
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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the letters in twenty are not fully struck as well as lower wings
    I am leaning towards altered surface or cleaned, but this is something you need a loupe on

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    @davewesen said:
    the letters in twenty are not fully struck as well as lower wings
    I am leaning towards altered surface or cleaned, but this is something you need a loupe on

    What does altered surface or cleaned mean for grading? Would it just be authenticated and not actually graded?

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ethan5203 said:

    @davewesen said:
    the letters in twenty are not fully struck as well as lower wings
    I am leaning towards altered surface or cleaned, but this is something you need a loupe on

    What does altered surface or cleaned mean for grading? Would it just be authenticated and not actually graded?

    There are issues/problems with certain coins, which cause a grading company to give it a “details grade” rather than a specific numerical grade. Among the issues/problems, are improper cleaning, damage, altered surfaces, polishing, corrosion, questionable color, tooling and so on. So, for example, if your coin is a cleaned or polished business strike/non-Proof, the grading company might label it “AU Details, Cleaned”, “AU Details, Polished”, “UNC Details, Cleaned” or “UNC Details, Polished”. Understandably, problem coins with details-grades typically sell for less - often, much less - than problem-free coins, which receive specific numerical grades such as “AU55”, “AU58”, “MS62”, “MS63”, etc.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ethan5203 said:

    @davewesen said:
    the letters in twenty are not fully struck as well as lower wings
    I am leaning towards altered surface or cleaned, but this is something you need a loupe on

    What does altered surface or cleaned mean for grading? Would it just be authenticated and not actually graded?

    Yes, you are correct. It would be placed in a “genuine” holder which would greatly diminish the value. Really needs to be looked at before spending money on grading. Tell us where you live. Maybe we can connect you with a local coin show or a Dealer in your area.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Regardless of whether this coin has been mishandled causing a details grade, it is definitely worth the cost of certifying it in a PCGS holder, regardless of the grade the coin gets as long as its genuine. Good luck.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow really nice gift,

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    bearcavebearcave Posts: 3,993 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would get it graded, even a Details grade. At least you would know if its genuine.

    Ken
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    KindaNewishKindaNewish Posts: 827 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A few years ago I stumbled across an superb (but cleaned) raw 1875-S 20c on ebay while slightly drunk. It turned out to be a superb BF-1, which I still think is a BMP.
    $700 later, my long dorment interest in coin collecting was rekindled. Finally joined this board after years of lurking, and met exceptional people like @yosclimber and @astrorat that strive to identify die varieties of seated coins. I went deep into the rabbit hole (joined LSCC, wrote a single article for the eGobrechet) and have been working on a die variety set of 20c pieces ever since (almost complete!).

    Welcome to this board, Ethan. And please check out the exceptional free resource on 20c coins at www.doubledimes.com

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭✭✭

    if you have any other coins in 2x2's like that, be careful how you store them. The staples are not flat so could scratch another coin if rubbed against. The video is still inconclusive while it is in the holder with the mylar covering. It still probably would be inconclusive from a video even if out.

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I'm not mistaken there are quite a few floating around that are PL. I've handled 2 business strikes that looked like proofs.

    @MFeld said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:
    Welcome to the forum and that’s a nice gift to have received.

    My guess is that the coin’s a Proof, but either way, it merits professional grading.

    @MFeld Shouldn't a proof coin have a sharply squared rim? I was thinking it's more likely Proof Like. Very nice coin. B)

    That certainly gives me pause. The coin looks to have reflective surfaces, however, and it would be very unusual for a business strike of that date to display Prooflike surfaces. So either the coin’s been polished, the images are distorted, it’s a poorly made proof or it’s a very unusual PL example.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    If I'm not mistaken there are quite a few floating around that are PL. I've handled 2 business strikes that looked like proofs.

    @MFeld said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:
    Welcome to the forum and that’s a nice gift to have received.

    My guess is that the coin’s a Proof, but either way, it merits professional grading.

    @MFeld Shouldn't a proof coin have a sharply squared rim? I was thinking it's more likely Proof Like. Very nice coin. B)

    That certainly gives me pause. The coin looks to have reflective surfaces, however, and it would be very unusual for a business strike of that date to display Prooflike surfaces. So either the coin’s been polished, the images are distorted, it’s a poorly made proof or it’s a very unusual PL example.

    By "quite a few", approximately what percentage of the AU and better business strikes, that you've seen, were PL? My experience has been that the number and percentage have been quite small, so I'll stick with my "very unusual". However, to each his own.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll put it this way. I've seen and handled enough to know there is a measurable percentage. It's not like a one off type of percentage.

    @MFeld said:

    @amwldcoin said:
    If I'm not mistaken there are quite a few floating around that are PL. I've handled 2 business strikes that looked like proofs.

    @MFeld said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @MFeld said:
    Welcome to the forum and that’s a nice gift to have received.

    My guess is that the coin’s a Proof, but either way, it merits professional grading.

    @MFeld Shouldn't a proof coin have a sharply squared rim? I was thinking it's more likely Proof Like. Very nice coin. B)

    That certainly gives me pause. The coin looks to have reflective surfaces, however, and it would be very unusual for a business strike of that date to display Prooflike surfaces. So either the coin’s been polished, the images are distorted, it’s a poorly made proof or it’s a very unusual PL example.

    By "quite a few", approximately what percentage of the AU and better business strikes, that you've seen, were PL? My experience has been that the number and percentage have been quite small, so I'll stick with my "very unusual". However, to each his own.

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    jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks like a polished UNC to me

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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,783 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can easily agree with very unusual... and I see it as a PL hoping that the coin was not enhanced in a negative way to prevent a straight grade. I would submit and depending on that result, this may warrant a further look by CAC.

    Good luck with the submission- please consider posting the results if you choose to submit.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,828 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2022 11:04AM

    That coin definitely needs to be sent in for grading... the images make the coin look UNC to me with super clean fields. I'd love to see this piece "in-hand"...

    If you do send it to our host, please consider posting the results here.

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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    KindaNewishKindaNewish Posts: 827 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2022 4:53PM

    @amwldcoin said:
    If I'm not mistaken there are quite a few floating around that are PL. I've handled 2 business strikes that looked like proofs.

    I have seen a few 1875-S 20c that I would call PL, but they were all BF-12 or BF-16, certainly not proofs.
    As far as the Philadelphia issues, PCGS has graded a single 1876 as PL and NGC has graded 7 1875 and 6 1876 as PL (all grades).

    I have not seen any of the PCGS or NGC proof like coins in person, and the few photos I've seen of them it is impossible to confirm the PL designation.

    The only PL I own is this ANACS, but I'm pretty sure it's a mislabeled proof. I can't be certain until I can properly see the edge (these old ANACS holders completely cover the edge).

    Graded AU58PL, but since this is one of the first off the press in Philly (still the only known BF-3), It is probable that it's a mislabeled proof.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ethan5203 .... Welcome aboard. Very nice coin from the pictures... I do not think it is a proof, but would not bet money based on the pictures. Good luck and let us know what you will do - and the results. Cheers, RickO

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    Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just have them cross it over if it gets a bump it will be put in the new holder if not it will stay in it’s original holder.

    That is a nice coin I don’t see any problem from here let’s see the back.



    Hoard the keys.

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