I think the whole deal is a crapshoot anyway. How can you be 100% sure a pack is unopened and hasn't been resealed? Not possible. Same for a wax box that's not factory sealed, like in the old days. No way you can 100% say that every pack in that box has never been opened and resealed. As for unopened cases, forget it. Way to easy to pull a fast one on those, as this debacle painfully proved to everyone watching.
I own one wrapped sealed case of 1985 Donruss racks. All of my other cases are raw. I enjoy FASC boxes much more than a full wrapped case. I like the idea of stopping the practice of wrapping cases and make it mandatory that it gets cracked open to wrap the boxes if legit.
@BaltimoreYankee said:
GI Joe of all things. Just wait until someone opens a slabbed 1952 Topps Baseball pack and discovers a bunch of Look N See cards.
I personally soured on unopened when I discovered a bunch of my PSA graded packs were bogus. People can be 'expert' but they can be fooled too.
78 and or 79 Topps cello packs with stars showing by any chance?
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
I'll buy as much FASC as you have, right now, at 75% Ebay sold.
Sell me all you want.
Then go...
Sorry, but they screwed up on this one and will continue to take heat. And I'm not going anywhere.
It's all good. They did screw up for sure.
Ok, big question that I have been thinking of, that hasn't really been voiced - Couldn't they have just weighed the other existing Pokemon 6 box case that exists, down to the fraction of an ounce, and then weighed Logan Paul's case? There's no way GI Joe cards weigh the same as Pokemon cards when you get down to decimal points on an ounce. Something that should be thought of in the future. Could have stopped a lot of the momentum on this thing before getting to a $3.5MM sale.
@BaltimoreYankee said:
I personally soured on unopened when I discovered a bunch of my PSA graded packs were bogus. People can be 'expert' but they can be fooled too.
I find this a little bit alarming. Who does PSA use to verify the packs that they grade? (I think I know, but not 100% sure)
Question -- were the packs completely bogus -- or did they just not produce any major hits? I'm still waiting for PSA to offer Packs that are labeled "FASB" (From A Sealed Box). Because anyone who knows the "pattern" can go through a box of 1986 Fleer Basketball, pull out the key cards, and then send in the remaining unopened packs for grading. Or open up a box of 1993 SP Baseball until they hit the Jeter, then send in the remaining packs for grading.
@GoDodgersFan said:
It will be interesting to see how BBCE sealed products do over the next few months. This is not the time to sell unless you absolutely need the cash. BBCE will rebound. At the end of the day, there's no entity that can authenticate sports related packs/boxes like BBCE. They need to stay away for Pokemon and other game cards.
This could open the door for competitors to BBCE, which is now somewhat of a monopoly on that service. Errors are made both ways (not certifying legit, and certifying that which is not). It's just this instance, received so much publicity and was for a high $$ amount.
I'm sure BBCE has insurance. Sealed cases are a good investment as the years pass and the value increases. The thought is as more years pass, there is less "unopened" product for any given year. I know some posters often reveal about the thrill of opening an old pack and seeing what you get. But it shows the most risk comes to a seller is if a buyer opens it, and has an unfortunate scenario such as Paul. This case may end up with an addition to the phase "Buyer beware." It may be buyer (and seller) beware.
Gretzky,Ripken, and Sandberg collection. Still trying to complete 1975 Topps baseball set from when I was a kid.
Even easier, the provenance on this case tells the whole story. Ebay seller history is beyond shady and the case sold for 1/5 the price of one of the boxes inside. Everyone on this forum would have looked at the original sale and identified the case as almost assuredly fake. This was an easy one TBH, BBCE put their stamp of approval on a case that the Pokemon community had outed as fake.
I'll buy as much FASC as you have, right now, at 75% Ebay sold.
Sell me all you want.
Then go...
Sorry, but they screwed up on this one and will continue to take heat. And I'm not going anywhere.
It's all good. They did screw up for sure.
Ok, big question that I have been thinking of, that hasn't really been voiced - Couldn't they have just weighed the other existing Pokemon 6 box case that exists, down to the fraction of an ounce, and then weighed Logan Paul's case? There's no way GI Joe cards weigh the same as Pokemon cards when you get down to decimal points on an ounce. Something that should be thought of in the future. Could have stopped a lot of the momentum on this thing before getting to a $3.5MM sale.
This could open the door for competitors to BBCE, which is now somewhat of a monopoly on that service. Errors are made both ways (not certifying legit, and certifying that which is not). It's just this instance, received so much publicity and was for a high $$ amount.
I don’t see refusing to certify a legitimate item as an error in the same sense. In trying like heck to avoid certifying bad items, Steve has set a high standard for what he will certify, and I’m sure we are all OK with a few good items being rejected in service of avoiding incidents like this one.
I'll buy as much FASC as you have, right now, at 75% Ebay sold.
Sell me all you want.
Then go...
Sorry, but they screwed up on this one and will continue to take heat. And I'm not going anywhere.
It's all good. They did screw up for sure.
Ok, big question that I have been thinking of, that hasn't really been voiced - Couldn't they have just weighed the other existing Pokemon 6 box case that exists, down to the fraction of an ounce, and then weighed Logan Paul's case? There's no way GI Joe cards weigh the same as Pokemon cards when you get down to decimal points on an ounce. Something that should be thought of in the future. Could have stopped a lot of the momentum on this thing before getting to a $3.5MM sale.
I was thinking of the weighing too.. in the video that is the first thing they noticed.. the boxes were light..
Is that not part of the authentication process. Enough cases have passed through BBCE, they could have those weights very easily. Maybe they do already, if they don’t, they need to for any case/box.
I was thinking of the weighing too.. in the video that is the first thing they noticed.. the boxes were light..
Is that not part of the authentication process. Enough cases have passed through BBCE, they could have those weights very easily. Maybe they do already, if they don’t, they need to for any case/box.
Except they probably never saw a Pokemon case before and would not have had a weight to refer too.
I was thinking of the weighing too.. in the video that is the first thing they noticed.. the boxes were light..
Is that not part of the authentication process. Enough cases have passed through BBCE, they could have those weights very easily. Maybe they do already, if they don’t, they need to for any case/box.
Except they probably never saw a Pokemon case before and would not have had a weight to refer too.
Yeah, they probably never have. Not if boxes are out there, do the math and and at least get an estimate. I would think you would take any step you could before you authenticate something of this magnitude.
In all honesty, the provenance of this one should have never even let it get that far.
But, yes for their “standard” stuff it would be a good idea too.
@76collector said:
Goes to show that anyone can make mistakes.
But this turned out to be a $3.5M mistake. I don't know why Steve would've take that kind of chance when by his own admission he doesn't really know Pokemon all that well.
I find it fascinating that so much of the "unopened market" is dependant on one man,his opinion and his authentication that comes with no guarantee. As a collector I wouldn't hesitate to buy product from him but from an investment standpoint it seems incredibly risky.
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
It's not risky, because as we've seen time and time again in this hobby no one really cares. Not going to list all of the hobby related businesses that have errors / business practices far bigger then this and are thriving, but suffice to say there are many.
This hobby at the high end is a POP TART measuring contest and people don't care if they get burned if they get the next shot at "the best stuff". Collectors flat out lied to about provenance of a high end altered item, back buying from the same seller the next time something cool pops up.
We wouldn't buy from a restaurant that spit in our food, or stay in a hotel that gave us bed bugs. But we will suffer scammers and thieves if it allows us an opportunity at the next great item on our list.
No. One. Cares.
PS. BBCE just made a mistake here, they are one of the good guys. I don't include them in the above, all the more reason this will have no long term impact.
@BaltimoreYankee said:
GI Joe of all things. Just wait until someone opens a slabbed 1952 Topps Baseball pack and discovers a bunch of Look N See cards.
I personally soured on unopened when I discovered a bunch of my PSA graded packs were bogus. People can be 'expert' but they can be fooled too.
78 and or 79 Topps cello packs with stars showing by any chance?
@80sOPC said:
It's not risky, because as we've seen time and time again in this hobby no one really cares. Not going to list all of the hobby related businesses that have errors / business practices far bigger then this and are thriving, but suffice to say there are many.
This hobby at the high end is a POP TART measuring contest and people don't care if they get burned if they get the next shot at "the best stuff". Collectors flat out lied to about provenance of a high end altered item, back buying from the same seller the next time something cool pops up.
We wouldn't buy from a restaurant that spit in our food, or stay in a hotel that gave us bed bugs. But we will suffer scammers and thieves if it allows us an opportunity at the next great item on our list.
No. One. Cares.
PS. BBCE just made a mistake here, they are one of the good guys. I don't include them in the above, all the more reason this will have no long term impact.
Agree with all but sentence 1 of the second paragraph. Many at the highest end love their collection as much as many at the lowest end. It is that love of the collection and needing the rare card that only comes up every so many years that make them be willing to get burned.
Everyone in the hobby from the low-end to the high-end need to avoid buying from the fraudulent. The only way fraud stops is when those that commit it are ostracized from the hobby.
It is almost impossible for a reputation to be damaged beyond repair in our hobby. Probstein recently interviewed Mastro. Evan Mathis is now a part owner in Collectable.com. PWCC's conservation of cards has been talked about to death. There are so many more. I will never understand how people cannot find ways to spend $ without buying from those that have shown to commit fraud. With no consequences this stuff will continue to become more pervasive. Every National the booths I highlight to avoid as hobby bad seeds get more numerous - and the same ones are there year after year unaffected.
BBCE acts with integrity and is not on my list. There is a difference between making a mistake and perpetrating fraud. Buying random packs and getting a key rookie is unheard of from just about anyone else.
However I think as large as BBCEs authentication service has become, it might be a good idea to explore technology to help out - whatever that might be. Simply knowing the weight of a genuine case and weighing this one would have shown a discrepancy. As the dollars get higher the frauds will get more sophisticated. Steve's methods need to get better as well. It does appear that someone has figured out either how to get striations on a new label or erase an old label and reprint it while on the case. I hope Steve bought the empty case so he could study that label and see if he can determine a difference between that and one that is genuinely aged on the box. He needs to continue to work hard to stay the expert.
Steve saved the hobby from the fake boxes at that auction not too long ago and has done so on many occasions.
@80sOPC said:
It's not risky, because as we've seen time and time again in this hobby no one really cares. Not going to list all of the hobby related businesses that have errors / business practices far bigger then this and are thriving, but suffice to say there are many.
This hobby at the high end is a dick measuring contest and people don't care if they get burned if they get the next shot at "the best stuff". Collectors flat out lied to about provenance of a high end altered item, back buying from the same seller the next time something cool pops up.
We wouldn't buy from a restaurant that spit in our food, or stay in a hotel that gave us bed bugs. But we will suffer scammers and thieves if it allows us an opportunity at the next great item on our list.
No. One. Cares.
PS. BBCE just made a mistake here, they are one of the good guys. I don't include them in the above, all the more reason this will have no long term impact.
Agree with all but sentence 1 of the second paragraph. Many at the highest end love their collection as much as many at the lowest end. It is that love of the collection and needing the rare card that only comes up every so many years that make them be willing to get burned.
Everyone in the hobby from the low-end to the high-end need to avoid buying from the fraudulent. The only way fraud stops is when those that commit it are ostracized from the hobby.
It is almost impossible for a reputation to be damaged beyond repair in our hobby. Probstein recently interviewed Mastro. Evan Mathis is now a part owner in Collectable.com. PWCC's conservation of cards has been talked about to death. There are so many more. I will never understand how people cannot find ways to spend $ without buying from those that have shown to commit fraud. With no consequences this stuff will continue to become more pervasive. Every National the booths I highlight to avoid as hobby bad seeds get more numerous - and the same ones are there year after year unaffected.
BBCE acts with integrity and is not on my list. There is a difference between making a mistake and perpetrating fraud. Buying random packs and getting a key rookie is unheard of from just about anyone else.
However I think as large as BBCEs authentication service has become, it might be a good idea to explore technology to help out - whatever that might be. Simply knowing the weight of a genuine case and weighing this one would have shown a discrepancy. As the dollars get higher the frauds will get more sophisticated. Steve's methods need to get better as well. It does appear that someone has figured out either how to get striations on a new label or erase an old label and reprint it while on the case. I hope Steve bought the empty case so he could study that label and see if he can determine a difference between that and one that is genuinely aged on the box. He needs to continue to work hard to stay the expert.
Steve saved the hobby from the fake boxes at that auction not too long ago and has done so on many occasions.
Well stated, and might I add that as technology advances, fakes will get incredibly sophisticated to the point where you will need better technology to detect. And we know that widespread fraud has taken place at the very highest levels here. Think about Gretzky's Wagner that Mastro admitted to trimming.
Now, when I buy high end unique stuff, I am meticulous about maintaining and documenting provenance. Someday it will trump a label on a slab.
Forging a label, sticking it on a box and dragging it on the ground to wear it doesn't seem all that hard. Once they figured that out, they probably took a heat gun to loosen the adhesive on the factory tape, peeled it back, refilled the case with faked boxes and resealed it. If you thinks it's hard, give it a try. Even a cheap hair dryer will do the job. It takes far more skill to fake packs than a case. This seems like a piece of cake, especially for a million dollar payout. I'm sure whomever the forgers were probably passed cheaper faked cases through Steve at BBCE to see if they could get away with it before they ever attempted this one.
Excellent points. The entire 'forensic science' portfolio needs to be evaluated and become SOP. Authentication will get more expensive for sure. 2nd/3rd opinion will be the norm on your high end items, such as the Pokemon debacle we just witnessed.
I wonder how many people are giving BBCE "a pass on this one" because it was Pokemon. If it was a 1986 Fleer box/case that was fake and authenticated by BBCE, would this conversation be a little harsher?
@steel75 said:
I wonder how many people are giving BBCE "a pass on this one" because it was Pokemon. If it was a 1986 Fleer box/case that was fake and authenticated by BBCE, would this conversation be a little harsher?
One thing we all need to consider. Over the past 5+ years breakers have been ripping BBCE products /PSA packs to a point where many of us were concerned how much longer vintage wax would even exist. Over the last 5 years the only time I can remember a breaker busting something that was BBCE wrapped and it being a problem was that jack*** Jabs and we all saw how that went.
Basically, we have seen a ton of BBCE wrapped products without seeing any issues. I think this goes to show that Steve has done a great job in the past and there is no reason to be concerned about his abilities going forward in the sports card realm.
@ArtVandelay said:
One thing we all need to consider. Over the past 5+ years breakers have been ripping BBCE products /PSA packs to a point where many of us were concerned how much longer vintage wax would even exist. Over the last 5 years the only time I can remember a breaker busting something that was BBCE wrapped and it being a problem was that jack*** Jabs and we all saw how that went.
Basically, we have seen a ton of BBCE wrapped products without seeing any issues. I think this goes to show that Steve has done a great job in the past and there is no reason to be concerned about his abilities going forward in the sports card realm.
Oh..... I don't know anything about that "jack*** Jabs" story, now I feel being left out..
@ArtVandelay said:
One thing we all need to consider. Over the past 5+ years breakers have been ripping BBCE products /PSA packs to a point where many of us were concerned how much longer vintage wax would even exist. Over the last 5 years the only time I can remember a breaker busting something that was BBCE wrapped and it being a problem was that jack*** Jabs and we all saw how that went.
Basically, we have seen a ton of BBCE wrapped products without seeing any issues. I think this goes to show that Steve has done a great job in the past and there is no reason to be concerned about his abilities going forward in the sports card realm.
Oh..... I don't know anything about that "jack*** Jabs" story, now I feel being left out..
As I recall, the 79 box was a legit factory issued box but all the cards in the box were cut from the same (C) sheet.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@grote15 said:
As I recall, the 79 box was a legit factory issued box but all the cards in the box were cut from the same (C) sheet.
How does that guy hold BBCE accountable for gum sticking to the cards? You have to know going in that it is likely to happen. Does anyone know the outcome when he went for a refund?
I wouldn't consider gum damage to the cards in the packs an issue with BBCE Authentication of the box.
But what we don't know is if the original owner of the box had multiple boxes and when they opened one they discovered that gum had ruined a majority of the cards. So they decided to get their remaining boxes authenticated by BBCE (knowing there's a good chance the cards inside might be gum damaged as in the video). To me, that is on the original owner's moral compass.
@craig44 said:
the condition of cards inside the packs is in NO WAY the responsibility of BBCE. they should never have to issue any type of refund due to that.
Oh well... they have 40K+ subs and 3k people watching live when they busting open that box, anything gone wrong must be BBCE's fault...LOL. That's publicity pressure or bullying, very unacceptable!!! If they pulled multiple good cards, some people would still say BBCE knew that box would go to a live break rip and they staged that good box. bala bala bala ........
If all you do is buy cards that are in PSA/BVG/SGC holders, I am sorry but you know nothing about cards. All of us started from ground zero, so don't be offended by the last comment. But also stop the rock throwing. There is not one dealer, nor collector and nor authenticator that is perfect. Some of you that are spewing hate towards BBCE right now just because he made a mistake- it is really out of line. I have been found to have trimmed cards in my PC baseball sets. They looked great to me but I missed something. PSA has encapsulated many, I mean many trimmed cards and altered cards. Collectors have bought altered cards and not known. We are freaking human and give some grace to Steve who is one of the most kind and honest dealers I know. He made a mistake and here is a little secret. He is going to make another one too.
Thank you Steve for all you do. And Steve, you were ambushed on this deal. Stay away from that Pokemon crap.
On the discussion of unopened, unopened material is a different animal. Provenance plays a very big part in my decision to buy that box or case. Most all the expensive boxes/cases that I have purchased over the past 25 years were vetted. I wanted to know where it came from and how was it stored. If you collect single cards these questions are not important but in the unopened arena, they are.
About six months ago, I was at a show buying and selling unopened material. This heavy set man with a purse wrapped around his neck came up and started discussing unopened with me. In the middle of the conversation, the guy casually mentions he has this and this in his collection. I thought to myself "self, this SOB is either loaded or he is full of CRAP." As we continued the talk, he pulls out a pack of 1933 Sports King. He tells me that it was his late fathers and then the story starts getting REALLY mudded. He continues to dig deeper and then his story slightly conflicts from his first offering. He tells me that Steve Hart has looked at the pack and it was good- although, it was not encapsulated. He was wanting $45,000 for the pack. He ends up leaving and I call Steve on his cell. Steve says um, no I did not say it was good and I know the guy. At this point I knew I wasn't buying it for $5 dollars much less $45,000. I told the guy no because I did not feel comfortable with the pack. I never saw chubby man with the purse again......until I saw the video in this thread on the fake Pokemon case.
This hobby is really small. Steve Hart is a friend to all. When you mess up, you will need those who know you to vouch for your character.
Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
@1954 said:
If all you do is buy cards that are in PSA/BVG/SGC holders, I am sorry but you know nothing about cards. All of us started from ground zero, so don't be offended by the last comment. But also stop the rock throwing. There is not one dealer, nor collector and nor authenticator that is perfect. Some of you that are spewing hate towards BBCE right now just because he made a mistake- it is really out of line. I have been found to have trimmed cards in my PC baseball sets. They looked great to me but I missed something. PSA has encapsulated many, I mean many trimmed cards and altered cards. Collectors have bought altered cards and not known. We are freaking human and give some grace to Steve who is one of the most kind and honest dealers I know. He made a mistake and here is a little secret. He is going to make another one too.
Thank you Steve for all you do. And Steve, you were ambushed on this deal. Stay away from that Pokemon crap.
On the discussion of unopened, unopened material is a different animal. Provenance plays a very big part in my decision to buy that box or case. Most all the expensive boxes/cases that I have purchased over the past 25 years were vetted. I wanted to know where it came from and how was it stored. If you collect single cards these questions are not important but in the unopened arena, they are.
About six months ago, I was at a show buying and selling unopened material. This heavy set man with a purse wrapped around his neck came up and started discussing unopened with me. In the middle of the conversation, the guy casually mentions he has this and this in his collection. I thought to myself "self, this SOB is either loaded or he is full of CRAP." As we continued the talk, he pulls out a pack of 1933 Sports King. He tells me that it was his late fathers and then the story starts getting REALLY mudded. He continues to dig deeper and then his story slightly conflicts from his first offering. He tells me that Steve Hart has looked at the pack and it was good- although, it was not encapsulated. He was wanting $45,000 for the pack. He ends up leaving and I call Steve on his cell. Steve says um, no I did not say it was good and I know the guy. At this point I knew I wasn't buying it for $5 dollars much less $45,000. I told the guy no because I did not feel comfortable with the pack. I never saw chubby man with the purse again......until I saw the video in this thread on the fake Pokemon case.
This hobby is really small. Steve Hart is a friend to all. When you mess up, you will need those who know you to vouch for your character.
@craig44 said:
the condition of cards inside the packs is in NO WAY the responsibility of BBCE. they should never have to issue any type of refund due to that.
Agree. Also, during the opening of the '79 box he was reading the comments and people were saying along the lines 'if you don't get an Ozzie Smith it is bogus, return it'. Do the people realize that it is impossible to get every card from the set in a wax box? Simple math. Then that doesn't account for the fact that you routinely get two of one card and zero of another.
@grote15 said:
As I recall, the 79 box was a legit factory issued box but all the cards in the box were cut from the same (C) sheet.
How does that guy hold BBCE accountable for gum sticking to the cards? You have to know going in that it is likely to happen. Does anyone know the outcome when he went for a refund?
Agree 100%. Just another example of someone looking to blame others for lack of due diligence. 72 OPC wax is notorious for gum bleeding issues, more so than any other year.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@craig44 said:
the condition of cards inside the packs is in NO WAY the responsibility of BBCE. they should never have to issue any type of refund due to that.
Agree. Also, during the opening of the '79 box he was reading the comments and people were saying along the lines 'if you don't get an Ozzie Smith it is bogus, return it'. Do the people realize that it is impossible to get every card from the set in a wax box? Simple math. Then that doesn't account for the fact that you routinely get two of one card and zero of another.
Crazy mind set.
To be fair, the nature of the 1979 box should have raised eyebrows, as it was not consistent with expected collation patterns. Steve explained exactly what the box was once the contents were known. His role as an authenticator cannot be expected to extend to predicting exactly what cards Topps happens to have put in an unusual close out box, but as I recall he replaced the box because he felt bad that the value of its contents was not in line with reasonable expectations.
That episode shows his generosity and expertise with vintage sports cards as much as the current episode underscores his lack of expertise with Pokémon. I think we can all agree he would be better off sticking with what he knows best. Frankly, PSA should probably have done the same, it’s impossible to be an expert on everything.
@craig44 said:
the condition of cards inside the packs is in NO WAY the responsibility of BBCE. they should never have to issue any type of refund due to that.
Agree. Also, during the opening of the '79 box he was reading the comments and people were saying along the lines 'if you don't get an Ozzie Smith it is bogus, return it'. Do the people realize that it is impossible to get every card from the set in a wax box? Simple math. Then that doesn't account for the fact that you routinely get two of one card and zero of another.
Crazy mind set.
To be fair, the nature of the 1979 box should have raised eyebrows, as it was not consistent with expected collation patterns. Steve explained exactly what the box was once the contents were known. His role as an authenticator cannot be expected to extend to predicting exactly what cards Topps happens to have put in an unusual close out box, but as I recall he replaced the box because he felt bad that the value of its contents was not in line with reasonable expectations.
That episode shows his generosity and expertise with vintage sports cards as much as the current episode underscores his lack of expertise with Pokémon. I think we can all agree he would be better off sticking with what he knows best. Frankly, PSA should probably have done the same, it’s impossible to be an expert on everything.
Wow that is above and beyond to replace the box. I didn't know the outcome, thanks for the information.
@1954 said:
If all you do is buy cards that are in PSA/BVG/SGC holders, I am sorry but you know nothing about cards. All of us started from ground zero, so don't be offended by the last comment. But also stop the rock throwing. There is not one dealer, nor collector and nor authenticator that is perfect. Some of you that are spewing hate towards BBCE right now just because he made a mistake- it is really out of line. I have been found to have trimmed cards in my PC baseball sets. They looked great to me but I missed something. PSA has encapsulated many, I mean many trimmed cards and altered cards. Collectors have bought altered cards and not known. We are freaking human and give some grace to Steve who is one of the most kind and honest dealers I know. He made a mistake and here is a little secret. He is going to make another one too.
Thank you Steve for all you do. And Steve, you were ambushed on this deal. Stay away from that Pokemon crap.
On the discussion of unopened, unopened material is a different animal. Provenance plays a very big part in my decision to buy that box or case. Most all the expensive boxes/cases that I have purchased over the past 25 years were vetted. I wanted to know where it came from and how was it stored. If you collect single cards these questions are not important but in the unopened arena, they are.
About six months ago, I was at a show buying and selling unopened material. This heavy set man with a purse wrapped around his neck came up and started discussing unopened with me. In the middle of the conversation, the guy casually mentions he has this and this in his collection. I thought to myself "self, this SOB is either loaded or he is full of CRAP." As we continued the talk, he pulls out a pack of 1933 Sports King. He tells me that it was his late fathers and then the story starts getting REALLY mudded. He continues to dig deeper and then his story slightly conflicts from his first offering. He tells me that Steve Hart has looked at the pack and it was good- although, it was not encapsulated. He was wanting $45,000 for the pack. He ends up leaving and I call Steve on his cell. Steve says um, no I did not say it was good and I know the guy. At this point I knew I wasn't buying it for $5 dollars much less $45,000. I told the guy no because I did not feel comfortable with the pack. I never saw chubby man with the purse again......until I saw the video in this thread on the fake Pokemon case.
This hobby is really small. Steve Hart is a friend to all. When you mess up, you will need those who know you to vouch for your character.
This comment was perfectly stated, and should be the LAST comment on this thread... anything beyond this comment should be filed under "hatters gonna hat".
As I stated before, "It's not personal, it's business". Just because Steve is a nice guy and friends with everyone doesn't give him a pass on this deal. He screwed up, period. This was a BUSINESS deal, not two pals trading cards.
I wonder what the comments would have been if the late Mr. Mint had authenticated this case? You guys would have been all over him because he wasn't the nicest guy in the world. Keep your personal feelings for Steve out of this deal. He messed up and needs to be held accountable for that error. There's no free pass in the business world because you're nice guy.
Comments
I think the whole deal is a crapshoot anyway. How can you be 100% sure a pack is unopened and hasn't been resealed? Not possible. Same for a wax box that's not factory sealed, like in the old days. No way you can 100% say that every pack in that box has never been opened and resealed. As for unopened cases, forget it. Way to easy to pull a fast one on those, as this debacle painfully proved to everyone watching.
I own one wrapped sealed case of 1985 Donruss racks. All of my other cases are raw. I enjoy FASC boxes much more than a full wrapped case. I like the idea of stopping the practice of wrapping cases and make it mandatory that it gets cracked open to wrap the boxes if legit.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
78 and or 79 Topps cello packs with stars showing by any chance?
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
It's all good. They did screw up for sure.
Ok, big question that I have been thinking of, that hasn't really been voiced - Couldn't they have just weighed the other existing Pokemon 6 box case that exists, down to the fraction of an ounce, and then weighed Logan Paul's case? There's no way GI Joe cards weigh the same as Pokemon cards when you get down to decimal points on an ounce. Something that should be thought of in the future. Could have stopped a lot of the momentum on this thing before getting to a $3.5MM sale.
I find this a little bit alarming. Who does PSA use to verify the packs that they grade? (I think I know, but not 100% sure)
Question -- were the packs completely bogus -- or did they just not produce any major hits? I'm still waiting for PSA to offer Packs that are labeled "FASB" (From A Sealed Box). Because anyone who knows the "pattern" can go through a box of 1986 Fleer Basketball, pull out the key cards, and then send in the remaining unopened packs for grading. Or open up a box of 1993 SP Baseball until they hit the Jeter, then send in the remaining packs for grading.
I wish they offered the "FASB" option for packs.
This could open the door for competitors to BBCE, which is now somewhat of a monopoly on that service. Errors are made both ways (not certifying legit, and certifying that which is not). It's just this instance, received so much publicity and was for a high $$ amount.
I'm sure BBCE has insurance. Sealed cases are a good investment as the years pass and the value increases. The thought is as more years pass, there is less "unopened" product for any given year. I know some posters often reveal about the thrill of opening an old pack and seeing what you get. But it shows the most risk comes to a seller is if a buyer opens it, and has an unfortunate scenario such as Paul. This case may end up with an addition to the phase "Buyer beware." It may be buyer (and seller) beware.
Gretzky,Ripken, and Sandberg collection. Still trying to complete 1975 Topps baseball set from when I was a kid.
Even easier, the provenance on this case tells the whole story. Ebay seller history is beyond shady and the case sold for 1/5 the price of one of the boxes inside. Everyone on this forum would have looked at the original sale and identified the case as almost assuredly fake. This was an easy one TBH, BBCE put their stamp of approval on a case that the Pokemon community had outed as fake.
Were the remainder of the boxes opened from the case? I wonder if any were good. I guess they all looked fishy?
Yes, they had Transformers, Barbie, and My LIttle Pony cards!
I don’t see refusing to certify a legitimate item as an error in the same sense. In trying like heck to avoid certifying bad items, Steve has set a high standard for what he will certify, and I’m sure we are all OK with a few good items being rejected in service of avoiding incidents like this one.
I was thinking of the weighing too.. in the video that is the first thing they noticed.. the boxes were light..
Is that not part of the authentication process. Enough cases have passed through BBCE, they could have those weights very easily. Maybe they do already, if they don’t, they need to for any case/box.
Nic
Guides Authored - Graded Card Scanning Guide PDF | History of the PSA Label PDF
Except they probably never saw a Pokemon case before and would not have had a weight to refer too.
Yeah, they probably never have. Not if boxes are out there, do the math and and at least get an estimate. I would think you would take any step you could before you authenticate something of this magnitude.
In all honesty, the provenance of this one should have never even let it get that far.
But, yes for their “standard” stuff it would be a good idea too.
Nic
Guides Authored - Graded Card Scanning Guide PDF | History of the PSA Label PDF
But this turned out to be a $3.5M mistake. I don't know why Steve would've take that kind of chance when by his own admission he doesn't really know Pokemon all that well.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
I really think the only one who can truly certify these cases and who would have the most knowledge on the subject would most likely be PIKACHU.
I find it fascinating that so much of the "unopened market" is dependant on one man,his opinion and his authentication that comes with no guarantee. As a collector I wouldn't hesitate to buy product from him but from an investment standpoint it seems incredibly risky.
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
I don’t get authenticating cases anyway. I’d rather have the boxes because at least they’re nicer to look at.
It's not risky, because as we've seen time and time again in this hobby no one really cares. Not going to list all of the hobby related businesses that have errors / business practices far bigger then this and are thriving, but suffice to say there are many.
This hobby at the high end is a POP TART measuring contest and people don't care if they get burned if they get the next shot at "the best stuff". Collectors flat out lied to about provenance of a high end altered item, back buying from the same seller the next time something cool pops up.
We wouldn't buy from a restaurant that spit in our food, or stay in a hotel that gave us bed bugs. But we will suffer scammers and thieves if it allows us an opportunity at the next great item on our list.
No. One. Cares.
PS. BBCE just made a mistake here, they are one of the good guys. I don't include them in the above, all the more reason this will have no long term impact.
Jose can you see?
Agree with all but sentence 1 of the second paragraph. Many at the highest end love their collection as much as many at the lowest end. It is that love of the collection and needing the rare card that only comes up every so many years that make them be willing to get burned.
Everyone in the hobby from the low-end to the high-end need to avoid buying from the fraudulent. The only way fraud stops is when those that commit it are ostracized from the hobby.
It is almost impossible for a reputation to be damaged beyond repair in our hobby. Probstein recently interviewed Mastro. Evan Mathis is now a part owner in Collectable.com. PWCC's conservation of cards has been talked about to death. There are so many more. I will never understand how people cannot find ways to spend $ without buying from those that have shown to commit fraud. With no consequences this stuff will continue to become more pervasive. Every National the booths I highlight to avoid as hobby bad seeds get more numerous - and the same ones are there year after year unaffected.
BBCE acts with integrity and is not on my list. There is a difference between making a mistake and perpetrating fraud. Buying random packs and getting a key rookie is unheard of from just about anyone else.
However I think as large as BBCEs authentication service has become, it might be a good idea to explore technology to help out - whatever that might be. Simply knowing the weight of a genuine case and weighing this one would have shown a discrepancy. As the dollars get higher the frauds will get more sophisticated. Steve's methods need to get better as well. It does appear that someone has figured out either how to get striations on a new label or erase an old label and reprint it while on the case. I hope Steve bought the empty case so he could study that label and see if he can determine a difference between that and one that is genuinely aged on the box. He needs to continue to work hard to stay the expert.
Steve saved the hobby from the fake boxes at that auction not too long ago and has done so on many occasions.
Well stated, and might I add that as technology advances, fakes will get incredibly sophisticated to the point where you will need better technology to detect. And we know that widespread fraud has taken place at the very highest levels here. Think about Gretzky's Wagner that Mastro admitted to trimming.
Now, when I buy high end unique stuff, I am meticulous about maintaining and documenting provenance. Someday it will trump a label on a slab.
Forging a label, sticking it on a box and dragging it on the ground to wear it doesn't seem all that hard. Once they figured that out, they probably took a heat gun to loosen the adhesive on the factory tape, peeled it back, refilled the case with faked boxes and resealed it. If you thinks it's hard, give it a try. Even a cheap hair dryer will do the job. It takes far more skill to fake packs than a case. This seems like a piece of cake, especially for a million dollar payout. I'm sure whomever the forgers were probably passed cheaper faked cases through Steve at BBCE to see if they could get away with it before they ever attempted this one.
Brian
Excellent points. The entire 'forensic science' portfolio needs to be evaluated and become SOP. Authentication will get more expensive for sure. 2nd/3rd opinion will be the norm on your high end items, such as the Pokemon debacle we just witnessed.
I wonder how many people are giving BBCE "a pass on this one" because it was Pokemon. If it was a 1986 Fleer box/case that was fake and authenticated by BBCE, would this conversation be a little harsher?
I agree
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
One thing we all need to consider. Over the past 5+ years breakers have been ripping BBCE products /PSA packs to a point where many of us were concerned how much longer vintage wax would even exist. Over the last 5 years the only time I can remember a breaker busting something that was BBCE wrapped and it being a problem was that jack*** Jabs and we all saw how that went.
Basically, we have seen a ton of BBCE wrapped products without seeing any issues. I think this goes to show that Steve has done a great job in the past and there is no reason to be concerned about his abilities going forward in the sports card realm.
Oh..... I don't know anything about that "jack*** Jabs" story, now I feel being left out..
I thought we were talking about this one…
Same
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
As I recall, the 79 box was a legit factory issued box but all the cards in the box were cut from the same (C) sheet.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
How does that guy hold BBCE accountable for gum sticking to the cards? You have to know going in that it is likely to happen. Does anyone know the outcome when he went for a refund?
I wouldn't consider gum damage to the cards in the packs an issue with BBCE Authentication of the box.
But what we don't know is if the original owner of the box had multiple boxes and when they opened one they discovered that gum had ruined a majority of the cards. So they decided to get their remaining boxes authenticated by BBCE (knowing there's a good chance the cards inside might be gum damaged as in the video). To me, that is on the original owner's moral compass.
the condition of cards inside the packs is in NO WAY the responsibility of BBCE. they should never have to issue any type of refund due to that.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Oh well... they have 40K+ subs and 3k people watching live when they busting open that box, anything gone wrong must be BBCE's fault...LOL. That's publicity pressure or bullying, very unacceptable!!! If they pulled multiple good cards, some people would still say BBCE knew that box would go to a live break rip and they staged that good box. bala bala bala ........
If all you do is buy cards that are in PSA/BVG/SGC holders, I am sorry but you know nothing about cards. All of us started from ground zero, so don't be offended by the last comment. But also stop the rock throwing. There is not one dealer, nor collector and nor authenticator that is perfect. Some of you that are spewing hate towards BBCE right now just because he made a mistake- it is really out of line. I have been found to have trimmed cards in my PC baseball sets. They looked great to me but I missed something. PSA has encapsulated many, I mean many trimmed cards and altered cards. Collectors have bought altered cards and not known. We are freaking human and give some grace to Steve who is one of the most kind and honest dealers I know. He made a mistake and here is a little secret. He is going to make another one too.
Thank you Steve for all you do. And Steve, you were ambushed on this deal. Stay away from that Pokemon crap.
On the discussion of unopened, unopened material is a different animal. Provenance plays a very big part in my decision to buy that box or case. Most all the expensive boxes/cases that I have purchased over the past 25 years were vetted. I wanted to know where it came from and how was it stored. If you collect single cards these questions are not important but in the unopened arena, they are.
About six months ago, I was at a show buying and selling unopened material. This heavy set man with a purse wrapped around his neck came up and started discussing unopened with me. In the middle of the conversation, the guy casually mentions he has this and this in his collection. I thought to myself "self, this SOB is either loaded or he is full of CRAP." As we continued the talk, he pulls out a pack of 1933 Sports King. He tells me that it was his late fathers and then the story starts getting REALLY mudded. He continues to dig deeper and then his story slightly conflicts from his first offering. He tells me that Steve Hart has looked at the pack and it was good- although, it was not encapsulated. He was wanting $45,000 for the pack. He ends up leaving and I call Steve on his cell. Steve says um, no I did not say it was good and I know the guy. At this point I knew I wasn't buying it for $5 dollars much less $45,000. I told the guy no because I did not feel comfortable with the pack. I never saw chubby man with the purse again......until I saw the video in this thread on the fake Pokemon case.
This hobby is really small. Steve Hart is a friend to all. When you mess up, you will need those who know you to vouch for your character.
He’s a joke. Blaming BBCE for collation or gum issues is bananas.
Just Perfect!
Agree. Also, during the opening of the '79 box he was reading the comments and people were saying along the lines 'if you don't get an Ozzie Smith it is bogus, return it'. Do the people realize that it is impossible to get every card from the set in a wax box? Simple math. Then that doesn't account for the fact that you routinely get two of one card and zero of another.
Crazy mind set.
Agree 100%. Just another example of someone looking to blame others for lack of due diligence. 72 OPC wax is notorious for gum bleeding issues, more so than any other year.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
To be fair, the nature of the 1979 box should have raised eyebrows, as it was not consistent with expected collation patterns. Steve explained exactly what the box was once the contents were known. His role as an authenticator cannot be expected to extend to predicting exactly what cards Topps happens to have put in an unusual close out box, but as I recall he replaced the box because he felt bad that the value of its contents was not in line with reasonable expectations.
That episode shows his generosity and expertise with vintage sports cards as much as the current episode underscores his lack of expertise with Pokémon. I think we can all agree he would be better off sticking with what he knows best. Frankly, PSA should probably have done the same, it’s impossible to be an expert on everything.
Wow that is above and beyond to replace the box. I didn't know the outcome, thanks for the information.
I have read a couple of times that Steve was ambushed by this situation. I would disagree. how was he ambushed?
as far as I know, he chose to authenticate the case. he also chose to appear in the hotel room video.
not sure where the ambush happened?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
This comment was perfectly stated, and should be the LAST comment on this thread... anything beyond this comment should be filed under "hatters gonna hat".
As I stated before, "It's not personal, it's business". Just because Steve is a nice guy and friends with everyone doesn't give him a pass on this deal. He screwed up, period. This was a BUSINESS deal, not two pals trading cards.
I wonder what the comments would have been if the late Mr. Mint had authenticated this case? You guys would have been all over him because he wasn't the nicest guy in the world. Keep your personal feelings for Steve out of this deal. He messed up and needs to be held accountable for that error. There's no free pass in the business world because you're nice guy.