Yeah, because Clemens is a power pitcher. Of course he's going to have more strikeouts. But, Maddux isn't a power pitcher...and he'll STILL reach 3,000 strikeouts. That's what so amazing about the guy. Clemens has 3 years on Maddux...Maddux came into THIS season with 257 career wins. You give Maddux the 3 seasons that Clemens has and Maddux would have won 15-17 of those EASILY as he's always done (consistency), and that's 45-51 more wins ATLEAST which would ALREADY have Maddux with over 300+ wins. Look at the back to back seasons with his ERA being in the 1's...simply amazing. He's brilliant when it comes to the mental part of the game. I've never seen anybody that cerebral in this game. He just has got an intuition that can't be taught. He relies more on pitching to situations and pitching to what a hitter's showing him from at-bat to at-bat than anybody else. That's part of the mystique of Maddux. I think the hitters think he can go back and recall every pitch he has ever thrown. That's not the case, but I think he's probably better at remembering things than most people are. And that's why the technical side of the game is so much more important for him than it is for other guys.
And he's definitely better in the course of the game at making adjustments on a hitter based on what he's seen, whether it's one swing or a guy's last at-bat. He notices things that others try to pay attention to, and most just can't because for most pitchers, it takes away from what they're trying to do, which is to get outs. For other pitchers...it puts too many things in their heads. If Maddux's memory is good, he maintains it's a matter of selective retention and something other pitchers can achieve.
BTW Yanksfan, I will say this about Roger, he did not deserve the 2001 Cy Young. It should have gone to Mike Mussina. Roger is also incredibly shortsighted and egotistical. However, few can even approach his skill level. He was the best pitcher in the American League for more than a decade, and he even bettered Pedro one season (1998.) I do give him credit, but he's just not better than Maddux.
And, oh yeah, BigShane...since you think Randy Johnson is some sort of God or something...Check out what Randy Johnson said HIMSELF about Greg Maddux...and I quote...
"He takes pitching to not only the next level," Diamondbacks ace Randy Johnson says, "but to where few people have ever gone before. I don't think it's fair to compare Greg Maddux to Christy Mathewson, but in this era, Greg Maddux is the best pitcher that's played the game.
"It's like watching Bobby Fischer in a chess match. You don't know what he's doing next.
"What he's doing now — in an offensive era — is absolutely mind-boggling."
<< <i>Greg is the greatest right-handed pitcher of all time which was an awesome article about Maddux. >>
that is a J-O-K-E... and actually an embarrasing statement... Maddux is good, but c'mon, he's not even one of the top 5 pitchers in MLB CURRENTLY, let alone in history... where was he in the all-star game? and how the hell do u go from 240 wins to 265 wins in half a season?
<< <i>Greg is the greatest right-handed pitcher of all time which was an awesome article about Maddux. >>
that is a J-O-K-E... and actually an embarrasing statement... Maddux is good, but c'mon, he's not even one of the top 5 pitchers in MLB CURRENTLY, let alone in history... where was he in the all-star game? and how the hell do u go from 240 wins to 265 wins in half a season? >>
First of all, when you have someone like Randy Johnson who admits himself that Maddux is the best in this era, then you know your amazing. Secondly, your obviously ignoring the FACTS in this thread that I have brought out. It's funny because usually people will know the facts are correct, but they'll choose to ignore them and create some other type of conversation. He's in the top 5 in the NL ATLEAST. He wasn't at the All-Star Game because he wasn't chosen and because he's missed a few starts with a back injury. But, it's not like he's having a bad season...He's 8-2 with a 2.81 ERA in 17 starts. Common Maddux numbers...He'll have 15-17 wins or more before the season is out. Don't know where 240 came from...I meant to say 257. 240 was the previous year coming into a season.
<< <i>Greg is the greatest right-handed pitcher of all time which was an awesome article about Maddux. >>
that is a J-O-K-E... and actually an embarrasing statement... Maddux is good, but c'mon, he's not even one of the top 5 pitchers in MLB CURRENTLY, let alone in history... where was he in the all-star game? and how the hell do u go from 240 wins to 265 wins in half a season? >>
First of all, when you have someone like Randy Johnson who admits himself that Maddux is the best in this era, then you know your amazing. Secondly, your obviously ignoring the FACTS in this thread that I have brought out. It's funny because usually people will know the facts are correct, but they'll choose to ignore them and create some other type of conversation. He's in the top 5 in the NL ATLEAST. He wasn't at the All-Star Game because he wasn't chosen and because he's missed a few starts with a back injury. But, it's not like he's having a bad season...He's 8-2 with a 2.81 ERA in 17 starts. Common Maddux numbers...He'll have 15-17 wins or more before the season is out. Don't know where 240 came from...I meant to say 257. 240 was the previous year coming into a season. >>
lol... Derrick don't believe everything u read... just because Randy Johnson says what he says, doesn't make it the truth... a reporter prolly asked him what he thought of Maddux and what else could he say? he sucks? lol i mean c'mon, Maddux is good, but he's NOWHERE CLOSE TO THE BEST EVER... i'll give him top 5 in the NL, but NOT MLB...
and i'm not ignoring facts, it's just u fail to realize the facts are misleading... u said earlier comparing those wins were like apples and oranges... well comparing Maddux to other pitchers is the same thing... there are many things that affect that such as age, teams, styles, starts, injuries, etc, etc, etc... u can't say Maddux is the best just because he has a lower ERA or just because he has more wins than someone... facts are important, yes, but sometimes they don't reflect the whole picture...
i never said Maddux was bad... in fact, Maddux is da^n good... but like others have said, he is inconsistent... he has flaws (like every pitcher) and he's not as great as u may think... like i said, i'll give him top 5 in the NL, but really, that's about all...
Your right about what Johnson said. But, he didn't just say..."Yeah, he's an awesome pitcher"...or he didn't say..."Maddux is great! I admire the guy!"....Look at what he DID say. I don't think he'd say that just for the sake of saying it and for his health. Maddux may not be AS good as he was about 3-4 years ago, but he's still a helluva pitcher! Inconsistent? Where do you get that from??? LOL...The guy is MR. Consistency! Maddux was never blessed with a Randy Johnson fastball, a Sandy Koufax curve or the imposing glare of Bob Gibson, but perhaps there has not been a greater right-handed pitcher in the last century since Walter Johnson, and you have to look over-all at what he's done. Not to mention he has 11 straight gold glove awards, Most by any pitcher in the history of baseball.
Maddux is the only pitcher since Cy Young (1891-1905) to win at least 15 games in 14 consecutive years. He set the NL record for innings pitched without issuing a walk. No one has won more games the last 10 years. He could stop pitching today and they'd have a plaque ready for him in Cooperstown in 2007.
Maddux, whose fastball is routinely clocked at only 88 mph, remarkably throws more fastballs than any established pitcher in the game. The difference is control and movement. He can throw the fastball with nearly pinpoint control, while the ball darts and spins as if he's controlling it like a yo-yo. Pitch after pitch nips a corner or dances just off the edge. Everything breaks late. Everything looks like everything else until the last split second. That two-seamer, veteran scouts will tell you, is the best they've ever seen. It appears to be a few inches outside when it leaves his hand, but it tails across the plate.
Maddux, who has proven for the last 14 years that control and intelligence is much more valuable than a raw 98-mph fastball, has always been able to simplify what others find complex. One of the most impressive displays of control began last year and to which Maddux pitched a span of 72 1/3 innings during which he did not walk a batter. It bettered the old NL record of 68 innings. When it did end, it was only because Maddux intentionally walked Arizona's Steve Finley to try to set up a double play.
I remember Leo Mazzone saying..."His ability to hit a target is as good as anybody who ever pitched, period, any decade and century. In the history of baseball." And Leo has seen a LOT of pitchers come and go in his lifetime, so he's not just blowing fumes.
I agree Derrick, on certain senses that Clemens has a three year advantage so he has played more games with a chance of getting more wins. But still how does he have more losses in three less seasons?? Explain that to me. As of the way they pitch, that doesn't matter, if you're a good pitcher, who cares what "type" of pitcher you are. And as for Johnson's comment, he is very modest, but he is also one of the few have gone above and beyond. And what I think, and I think others may agree, that has raised that bar another one or two levels, as has Clemens, Ryan, and other greats.
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lol no... i just really could care less... i'm not pressed like u... i'm over it, off work, and going to enjoy myself OFFline... have a good weekend everyone...
<< <i>Jim Kaat won 16 consecutive Gold Glove Awards (1962 through 1977). Let's not exaggerate facts when making the comparison.
Nick >>
But he's not a pitcher is he? We're not talking about position players. We're talking about PITCHERS. Greg Maddux has the record for pitchers...not as an infielder, an outfielder, etc. There's a difference.
Comments
And he's definitely better in the course of the game at making adjustments on a hitter based on what he's seen, whether it's one swing or a guy's last at-bat. He notices things that others try to pay attention to, and most just can't because for most pitchers, it takes away from what they're trying to do, which is to get outs. For other pitchers...it puts too many things in their heads. If Maddux's memory is good, he maintains it's a matter of selective retention and something other pitchers can achieve.
"He takes pitching to not only the next level," Diamondbacks ace Randy Johnson says, "but to where few people have ever gone before. I don't think it's fair to compare Greg Maddux to Christy Mathewson, but in this era, Greg Maddux is the best pitcher that's played the game.
"It's like watching Bobby Fischer in a chess match. You don't know what he's doing next.
"What he's doing now — in an offensive era — is absolutely mind-boggling."
<< <i>Greg is the greatest right-handed pitcher of all time which was an awesome article about Maddux. >>
that is a J-O-K-E... and actually an embarrasing statement... Maddux is good, but c'mon, he's not even one of the top 5 pitchers in MLB CURRENTLY, let alone in history... where was he in the all-star game? and how the hell do u go from 240 wins to 265 wins in half a season?
<< <i>
<< <i>Greg is the greatest right-handed pitcher of all time which was an awesome article about Maddux. >>
that is a J-O-K-E... and actually an embarrasing statement... Maddux is good, but c'mon, he's not even one of the top 5 pitchers in MLB CURRENTLY, let alone in history... where was he in the all-star game? and how the hell do u go from 240 wins to 265 wins in half a season? >>
First of all, when you have someone like Randy Johnson who admits himself that Maddux is the best in this era, then you know your amazing. Secondly, your obviously ignoring the FACTS in this thread that I have brought out. It's funny because usually people will know the facts are correct, but they'll choose to ignore them and create some other type of conversation. He's in the top 5 in the NL ATLEAST. He wasn't at the All-Star Game because he wasn't chosen and because he's missed a few starts with a back injury. But, it's not like he's having a bad season...He's 8-2 with a 2.81 ERA in 17 starts. Common Maddux numbers...He'll have 15-17 wins or more before the season is out. Don't know where 240 came from...I meant to say 257. 240 was the previous year coming into a season.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Greg is the greatest right-handed pitcher of all time which was an awesome article about Maddux. >>
that is a J-O-K-E... and actually an embarrasing statement... Maddux is good, but c'mon, he's not even one of the top 5 pitchers in MLB CURRENTLY, let alone in history... where was he in the all-star game? and how the hell do u go from 240 wins to 265 wins in half a season? >>
First of all, when you have someone like Randy Johnson who admits himself that Maddux is the best in this era, then you know your amazing. Secondly, your obviously ignoring the FACTS in this thread that I have brought out. It's funny because usually people will know the facts are correct, but they'll choose to ignore them and create some other type of conversation. He's in the top 5 in the NL ATLEAST. He wasn't at the All-Star Game because he wasn't chosen and because he's missed a few starts with a back injury. But, it's not like he's having a bad season...He's 8-2 with a 2.81 ERA in 17 starts. Common Maddux numbers...He'll have 15-17 wins or more before the season is out. Don't know where 240 came from...I meant to say 257. 240 was the previous year coming into a season. >>
lol... Derrick don't believe everything u read... just because Randy Johnson says what he says, doesn't make it the truth... a reporter prolly asked him what he thought of Maddux and what else could he say? he sucks? lol i mean c'mon, Maddux is good, but he's NOWHERE CLOSE TO THE BEST EVER... i'll give him top 5 in the NL, but NOT MLB...
and i'm not ignoring facts, it's just u fail to realize the facts are misleading... u said earlier comparing those wins were like apples and oranges... well comparing Maddux to other pitchers is the same thing... there are many things that affect that such as age, teams, styles, starts, injuries, etc, etc, etc... u can't say Maddux is the best just because he has a lower ERA or just because he has more wins than someone... facts are important, yes, but sometimes they don't reflect the whole picture...
i never said Maddux was bad... in fact, Maddux is da^n good... but like others have said, he is inconsistent... he has flaws (like every pitcher) and he's not as great as u may think... like i said, i'll give him top 5 in the NL, but really, that's about all...
Maddux is the only pitcher since Cy Young (1891-1905) to win at least 15 games in 14 consecutive years. He set the NL record for innings pitched without issuing a walk. No one has won more games the last 10 years. He could stop pitching today and they'd have a plaque ready for him in Cooperstown in 2007.
Maddux, whose fastball is routinely clocked at only 88 mph, remarkably throws more fastballs than any established pitcher in the game. The difference is control and movement. He can throw the fastball with nearly pinpoint control, while the ball darts and spins as if he's controlling it like a yo-yo. Pitch after pitch nips a corner or dances just off the edge. Everything breaks late. Everything looks like everything else until the last split second. That two-seamer, veteran scouts will tell you, is the best they've ever seen. It appears to be a few inches outside when it leaves his hand, but it tails across the plate.
Maddux, who has proven for the last 14 years that control and intelligence is much more valuable than a raw 98-mph fastball, has always been able to simplify what others find complex. One of the most impressive displays of control began last year and to which Maddux pitched a span of 72 1/3 innings during which he did not walk a batter. It bettered the old NL record of 68 innings. When it did end, it was only because Maddux intentionally walked Arizona's Steve Finley to try to set up a double play.
I remember Leo Mazzone saying..."His ability to hit a target is as good as anybody who ever pitched, period, any decade and century. In the history of baseball." And Leo has seen a LOT of pitchers come and go in his lifetime, so he's not just blowing fumes.
The facts Kill...
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The facts Kill... >>
lol no... i just really could care less... i'm not pressed like u... i'm over it, off work, and going to enjoy myself OFFline... have a good weekend everyone...
Let's not exaggerate facts when making the comparison.
Nick
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<< <i>Jim Kaat won 16 consecutive Gold Glove Awards (1962 through 1977).
Let's not exaggerate facts when making the comparison.
Nick >>
But he's not a pitcher is he? We're not talking about position players. We're talking about PITCHERS. Greg Maddux has the record for pitchers...not as an infielder, an outfielder, etc. There's a difference.