Most wins by active tandems...
Derrick
Posts: 4,287 ✭✭
Maddux-Glavine 500
Clemens-Mussina 464
Clemens-Wells 463
Maddux-Smoltz 426
Glavine-Smoltz 396
Clemens-Mussina 464
Clemens-Wells 463
Maddux-Smoltz 426
Glavine-Smoltz 396
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Answer:Glavine, Smoltz, and Maddux have played on the same team for the majority of there careers. Mussina came to the Yankees last year, Wells was in NY for a couple and now is back again. Let Wells and Moose be there from the start of there career and you've got a whole different picture. Remember the 4 rings. Moose wasn't there for ANY of them. Wells was there for 3 I believe, not sure. Don't you think Moose would've gotten ALOT more wins had he been on the Yankees since the mid 90's?
Lets compare the numbers in a couple of years, when Moose is really in his prime. He's only 33 and the Rocket isn't slowing down for atleast 2 more years. Wells prolly has 1-2 good years left in him. Compare all of them when there done with there careers.
BTW-Look at all those wins those guys have, but look how many rings my guys have. No comparison.
Also, which tandem has more MVP's, perfect games, strikeouts, and shutouts. I'm not sure on the last one, but humor me.
What years did Glavine and Smoltz come in? I don't know and don't care, but again, humor me.
Oh yeah, which tandem loses more often in the playoffs?
Explain why Maddux has more loses in his career than Clemens?
Can you also list the total loses for each tandem?
Thanks.
One last thing, I and you know that Clemens has more wins because he was in longer and is a superior pitcher.
Now go and eat your
WHY DOES MADDUX HAVE MORE LOSSES IN LESS YEARS OF PLAYING IN THE MLB THEN CLEMENS???
BTW-Look at all those wins those guys have, but look how many rings my guys have. No comparison.
Oh yeah, which tandem loses more often in the playoffs?
Can you also list the total loses for each tandem?
Thanks.
<< <i>Just what I thought! No answer.
WHY DOES MADDUX HAVE MORE LOSSES IN LESS YEARS OF PLAYING IN THE MLB THEN CLEMENS???
BTW-Look at all those wins those guys have, but look how many rings my guys have. No comparison.
Oh yeah, which tandem loses more often in the playoffs?
Can you also list the total loses for each tandem?
Thanks. >>
No one cares about losses. It's all about wins and consistency. Why is Maddux coming out with a book with all his "secrets" in it that everyone is so anxiously awaiting? They have already said that when that book comes out...that pitchers will become better because of the abilities Maddux has and what intelligence he brings to pitching.
Of course, that's all you can say is talk about "rings". I knew you would bring that up because that's all you have. Your "guys"...who are we talking about here? Yeah, Maddux and Clemens...not your "guys". Keep buying the championships and your going to have plenty of rings. And, as far as a "farm system" goes. Yeah, it's good...but it also comes with $$$...and George has plenty of that and he keeps it running. There's no excuse. They need a salary cap and that would put away a lot of their success.
Once again, no one looks at losses. Look at Nolan Ryan and the losses he had...does any care? No. Same goes with any pitcher.
ERA's are best evaluated by comparing them with the league average that year. In 1994 Maddux had an ERA of 1.56, compared to the league aerage of 4.21. The next year, 1995, Maddux had an ERA of 1.63, compared to the league average of 4.18. It was in 1995 that he went 19-2, batters hit only .197 against him, he gave up only 8 HR's, walked 23, struck out 181, and most astounding of all, the On-Base Percentage against him was only .224, a mark bested by Walter Johnson only once...who allowed a .214 mark in 1913, during the heart of the dead-ball era. In the context of the lively-ball, homer-happy 90's, Maddux's numbers are even more astounding, and he's getting better and better.
Yanks Fan sure does get worked up about these posts that Derrick makes...
My theory on why the Braves starting pitchers are so good? The better they pitch, the longer they can stay out of the dugout and away from that bizarre pitching coach of theirs....
PS. Regarding the Clemens vs. Maddux debate? Here's my answer: I think they both are awesome!
PPS. YanksFan - please develop a sense of humor asap (and that's coming from someone who's been a Yankees fan longer than you've been alive)...
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Sorry D, I've liked Clemens ever since Boston started hating him. I don't like Madduxs' style of pitching, I like the rear back and gun it types(ie: Nolan Ryan, Clemens, Randy Johnson) not the more technical pitchers(ie: Maddux, Mussina, and Glavine).
Why does Clemens have more Cy Young awards, which are given to the most dominate and superior pitcher in their respective league?
Why hasn't Maddux won 6+ if he is so much better than everyone else? Doesn't he only have 4(Johnson also has 4)
BTW-Your post about Maddux's avg.'s just came up, remember, I've never said Maddux wasn't a great pitcher, just Clemens is better.
Clemens will most likely break 4,000 K's if he plays next year and he might break 300 wins this year.
The majority of sports analysts/announcers put the top 3 of the last 15 years as this....
1.)Clemens
2.)Maddux(some say Johnson)
3.)Johnson(few say Maddux)
I don't know but has Maddux won a MVP award? I know Clemens did in only his Second season.
Also, put Maddux on the Yanks and I'll still say Clemens is better, he's been my favorite(along with Johnson) for a long time.
<< <i>I could go on and on...
could go on and on? I suspect that you most certainly will go on and on...
By the way... good research fellas...
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What jumps out at me in Maddux's line is the strikeouts. While Maddux's shot at 300 wins is well known, how many people realize he has a good chance to reach 3,000 strikeouts, and should get there late in 2005? For a pitcher who was never regarded as a strikeout guy...despite good rates throughout his career...that's a significant achievement.
"Yanks Fan sure does get worked up about these posts that Derrick makes"
Nah man, I don't get worked up over baseball(except Game 7, 9th inning last WS). It's there for enjoyment, and thats what I do. Crack open a couple bottles, sit and watch some baseball in the middle of summer sitting with some friends. Now thats enjoyment.
You also mentioned something about the playoffs. In five World Series starts he fashioned a 2.09 ERA, showing his dominance as usual. Not to mention, and his 176 victories were the most in the 1990s.
Just wait a couple years...
Johnson: 54 W/16 L
Maddux: 44 W/22 L
-Batting-
Johnson
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
415 362 10 43 8 0 0 20 6 171 0 0 .137 .141 .119
Maddux
527 1163 84 209 28 2 4 60 28 310 4 3 .202 .218 .180
=Pitching=
Johnson
W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR HBP BB SO
212 104 3.10 420 410 81 31 2 2 2887.0 2226 1121 994 256 130 1195 3583
Maddux
265 148 2.84 523 519 102 34 0 3653.2 3301 1320 1153 201 98 786 2578
Lets look at Weaver's stats in 10 years, you'll all be astounded at what the young guy can do. All the baseball "experts" agree with me, and the Braves know what he can do already, as do the Stankees... oops, Yankees, that's why they got him.
Like I said, now he's no where near as good as Maddux & Johnson, but I would take him over Clemens any day.
Now Collecting- Ed Belfour, any RedWings, Brian Griese, Bobby Higginson, Will Clark, U of M players
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lol...
Derrick, Johnson/Schilling best duo in MLB... sorry to burst your bubble...
Just wait a couple years"
What?!?!?!? How many more years do you think these guys have? I know Schilling has some years left but Johnson is up there in age(He's one of my favorites).
I know Clemens is what 40, but he's throwing like he did 10 years ago, he probably has 2 more years in him. But, Moose is only 33. Mussina can prolly go until he's 38-40 giving him easily 5 more years of pitching in his prime. Also, he's on a team thats not just playing for this season, but the Yankees have alot of youth and tons of talent. I say, compare Maddux/Smoltz, Clemens/Mussina, and Johnson/Schilling when all of there careers are finished.
BTW-I've also got high expectations out of Weaver. Hopefully turns into a 15-17 wins a season type guy. But who am I kidding, I have high expectations out of anyone who puts on that uniform.
GO YANKEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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<< <i>I say, compare Maddux/Smoltz, Clemens/Mussina, and Johnson/Schilling when all of there careers are finished. >>
exactly, only fair way to do it... but some of them have played together longer than others... there are many things that can screw up the "stats"... Clemens/Mussina and Johnson/Schilling are both better than Maddux/Smoltz in my opinion... and i don't even like baseball that much nor do i have a favorite team... but if i had a team, i'd pick one of those 2 pairs anyday over the Maddux/Smoltz...
I am glad the Braves finally won 1 championship out of the 4 they went to in the 90's. They were almost the Buffalo Bills of MLB.
This thread was started with a stat that supports the biased opinion of the person that started the thread. Very interesting none the less. ( I'm a stat junkie )
Brave-Soooo, Whats your point?
Thito-Thanks for agreeing, as I've always stated I like rear back and gun it pitchers(Nolan Ryan, Curt Schilling, Randy Johnson, and Clemens) more than technical pitchers. Nothing is better than seeing a called third strike and looking at the speedometer and seeing 3 digits.
"but some of them have played together longer than others"
Exactly, Clemens/Mussina have played 1 season together and Johnson/Schilling have played 2 seasons together(not sure, I think) while Maddux/Smoltz have spent the majority of there careers in the same uniforms.
Johnson/Schilling duo is just awesome combo!They also happen to play for one of our favorite teams besides the Orioles'.
We'll be seeing all of these pitchers in the Hall of Fame down the road,for sure.
That was awesome in the All Star game when Schilling told A-Rod he was going to throw him all fastballs & got him out on 3 pitches!!
Besides the Torii Hunter catch,that was my favorite moment of the all star game.
As far as the Atlanta duo,while they are good pitchers they really fall down when it comes to the playoffs.Maddux is actually one of the most boring pitchers to watch.The other thing Atalnta needs to do is get new play-by-play guys;the ones they have now sound like they are MCs at a funeral parlor.
The Yankees duo is pretty awesome.Clemens is always fun to watch & we are still crying over Moose leaving the Os' but hey;he had to take the money as he is a very good pitcher.
We are just hoping there will be a world series this year;doesn't look good right now that there will be tho.Just our 2 cents worth.
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<< <i>We have to agree with Big Shane & Thito on this one. >>
ok, that's twice now you've agreed with me... WHAT'S THIS WORLD COMING TO?!
But it's always nice to know that we can, in fact, find some common ground now & then.
Also remember,NFL football is just around the corner & we are excited about the Redskins' new regime.We can't wait!!!
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<< <i>I know what you mean THito,it's starting to scare us here too! LOL!
But it's always nice to know that we can, in fact, find some common ground now & then.
Also remember,NFL football is just around the corner & we are excited about the Redskins' new regime.We can't wait!!! >>
o yeah, it SURE IS... AUGUST 3rd - JAPAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO SKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bobstar - Don't kid yourself! Maddux a boring pitcher? LOL!!! That's very funny. I'd like for you to find me a more intelligent pitcher who can locate his pitches better than him. He makes some beautiful pitches unlike any other. He plays mind games with the batters. He'll throw a pitch that referred back to the previous pitch to make the NEXT pitch fool them. He's not coming out with a book about pitching when he retires for nothing. There'll be plenty who'll be buying that book...and you can bet that you'll be seeing a lot better pitching afterwards after his secrets are released. Here's a guy who enjoys hockey...the most boring sport next to golf.
UofA - Ok, they might have one won ring, but hey, that one ring is better than a lot of teams WISH they had including your Giants. Atleast we were THERE...it takes a lot to get there...and it's not like we were beat badly in the World Series's...we lost each game in a World by 1 or 2 runs. That's not really getting beat up...that's just happening to have a better team beat us. Plain and simple. We'll have 11 straight division titles after this season is over...something no one in the history of SPORTS can say that they have done. Credit needs be given where credit is due. And, don't be surprised if the Braves win the world series this year...this team is a helluva lot better than the 95 team we had, not to mention we have the best bullpen in the majors.
Derrick- Like I said I was happy they won. I wish the Braves could have won more World Series, especialy those involving the Yankees. The Braves are top notch, first class team. They were arguably the best team of the 90's. In no way was I bashing the Braves.
I was just pointing out that they would have been the Buffalo Bills of the NFL if they didn't win one, and that you are biased with this topic, but it's ok.
Another thing about Greg Maddux...just for sh*t's and giggles..I don't see how anyone can say this master of pitching is boring. Heepitomizes what a professional pitcher is all about. He doesn't overpower people, like Clemens or Johnson. He's smart; he's always one step ahead of everybody. It's hard to be as dominant as he's been for as long as he's been without a 98-mph fastball. The argument can be made, and a poll of fans in the Oakland Tribune last summer backed it up, that Greg is the greatest right-handed pitcher of all time which was an awesome article about Maddux. But I think one thing that really stands out about Greg is that he hasn't sought the public spotlight. He hasn't gone after the Madison Avenue-type endorsements. Although, the "Girls dig the Long Ball" commercial was pretty funny.
Not to mention, Greg is still going strong and has a good shot at 300 career wins as he came into this season with 240 (now has 265). He's a sure bet for the Hall of Fame as he is the only pitcher to have won the Cy Young Award in four straight seasons: 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995. He's led the league in ERA four times and has won at least 19 games seven times. He's one of the greatest fielding pitchers of all time and has won 11 Golden Glove awards.
I will never forget his '95 season when he went 19-2 with a 1.63 ERA. Oh, how many batters have walked away from the plate wondering how he got them out!
Derrick-You need to wake up my man.The reality of it is: Madison Av hasn't gone after HIM because he is "BORING" & also pretty ugly on top of that.He couldn't sell fire to an Eskimo with a kisser like his & his boring attitude.It's not his fault,by the way,just the way he is.
You also keep avoiding my other comment about the Braves lousy play-by-play chumps too or do you like them as much as you do Greg.
Don't get me wrong,he is a very good pitcher but it will be a very very long time before he could ever gain the title of greatest right hand pitcher of all time.He would have to accomplish alot more before he could ever even be considered to be even close to a title even remotely close to that.
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Same excuse every time. As you should know, the NY Yankees have, as a organization 26 World Series rings. Out of the 100 years that the AL has been a league, the Yankees have won the World Series 26 TIMES!!!!!!!!! edited b/c I put 36 instead of 26. oops
"Don't kid yourself! Maddux a boring pitcher? LOL!!! That's very funny. I'd like for you to find me a more intelligent pitcher who can locate his pitches better than him."
Being smart doesn't make you exciting, look at Bill Gates a genius, right? Is he exciting? I find watching gra$$ grow as more exciting than Bill Gates.
"Greg is still going strong and has a good shot at 300 career wins as he came into this season with 240 (now has 265). "
So in half a season he's won 25 games? Wonder why he wasn't in the All Star game...
"They were arguably the best team of the 90's"
Best team in the NL during the 90's, I'll give them that. But the best in the Majors with only 1 ring(I know I keep going back to this) shows that they weren't dominant over the whole MLB.
"he is the only pitcher to have won the Cy Young Award in four straight seasons: 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995."
Randy Johnson has a shot to tie that record this season. Don't count out the Big Unit. Also, he still doesn't have more Cy Youngs than Clemens, who owns 6 Cy Young awards as well as a MVP award, only man to start a season 20-1, AL record for strikeouts, and will have 300 wins at the end of this season(if he doesn't leave games early like he has been).
You keep on talking about this book he's putting out. When Canseco put out his book everyone nearly castrated him, saying he was just trying to stay in the spotlight. But when your adoored Maddux does it, some people praise him. His book will help very few, not many people have god given talent like Johnson, Clemens, Smoltz, Maddux, and Schilling.
"He's not coming out with a book about pitching when he retires for nothing."
He's doing it for the money, that and his name in the papers.
BTW-How can you say hockeys boring. Seeing someone get crashed into the boards right in front of you is GREAT!!!!! That and one on two breakaways stopped by a great goalie like Broduer. Nothing like it.
<< <i>That's funny;"he hasn't gone after the Madison Av types of endorsements"!
Derrick-You need to wake up my man.The reality of it is: Madison Av hasn't gone after HIM because he is "BORING" & also pretty ugly on top of that.He couldn't sell fire to an Eskimo with a kisser like his & his boring attitude.It's not his fault,by the way,just the way he is.
You also keep avoiding my other comment about the Braves lousy play-by-play chumps too or do you like them as much as you do Greg.
Don't get me wrong,he is a very good pitcher but it will be a very very long time before he could ever gain the title of greatest right hand pitcher of all time.He would have to accomplish alot more before he could ever even be considered to be even close to a title even remotely close to that. >>
Bob, obviously you have no sense of humor by the way you take things so I'll make sure I type to you more intelligently. Greg Maddux's attitude is boring?! Ok, does that make him a bad pitcher just because his attitude is "boring". What do you know about him anyway? He's definitely not boring...but oh wait...your a big hockey fan...probably one of the most boring sports next to golf...so I guess you can spot someone being boring or not. Yeah, it's just the way he is...so who cares? Who cares about how someone IS? As long as they go out and play baseball and dominate like he has done...then his attitude doesn't matter. Who cares if someone is BORING or not...lol...what's your point???
The Braves have a great crew of play-by-play guy's. Skip Carey, the great Harry Carey's son, is definitely awesome. Pete Van Weiren, or better know, as the "professor" is a baseball dictionary! This guy can tell you ANYTHING about the game of baseball and the history. Joe Simpson...a former major league player and a class act. Don Sutton...is, I believe, 6th on the all-time strikeout list, has over 300+ wins in his career and is in the Hall of Fame...they are great announcers. Why are you bashing announcers now??? LOL...wow, your such a mature guy. Just because you dislike the Braves doesn't mean you have to go and bash announcers...that makes you a very smart guy....NOT. Keep watching your hockey and keep dosing off in between games because of the boredom and go find someone else to bash. Your definitely a bad role model to your son...or, it would seem that way.
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<< <i>It constantly comes back to wins. You say losses don't matter and know one cares. Not quite true. What if a pitcher went 13-45 (just a number), and another pitcher went 10-0. Which is better?? >>
Oh boy...another smart one here. Someone who went 13-45 obviously played in ATLEAST 58 games to reach those stats, which would never occur because no one is that perfect to get that many decisions. 58 decisions in maybe 100 games or so...so comparing someone with that record to a 10-0 record is like comparing apples to oranges. It makes no sense whatsoever. I bet if Nolan Ryan were to have lost about 300 games...then no one would mention his losses and the guy lost A LOT of games...but no one mentions losses. Losses come with the territory. It's all about wins, wins, wins and consistency.
BTW-Reply to my previous post. You know the one were I talk about your whining.
I betcha if Maddux was more consistent he wouldn't have lost as many games. To bad he has less wins and more losses than Clemens, that don't sound to consistent with me. You can't blame the Braves since there perennial playoff team since before Maddux arrived. Only guy to blame is Maddux, for his inconsistency or lack there of it.
<< <i>Iluv-I totally agree with you. Losses do matter. Look at winning %'s and Maddux's isn't as high as Clemens, because he has around 24 more losses then Clemens in 3 less years of playing!
BTW-Reply to my previous post. You know the one were I talk about your whining. >>
LOL, yeah it's no different than you totally IGNORING th stats I have brought out to you in previous posts on this thread which you acted like didn't exist. Same difference there buddy...
<< <i>"Losses come with the territory. It's all about wins, wins, wins and consistency."
I betcha if Maddux was more consistent he wouldn't have lost as many games. To bad he has less wins and more losses than Clemens, that don't sound to consistent with me. You can't blame the Braves since there perennial playoff team since before Maddux arrived. Only guy to blame is Maddux, for his inconsistency or lack there of it.
Once again, Your constantly ignoring the stats. In terms of raw numbers, Clemens holds a small edge, primarily due to his three-year age advantage over Maddux. That's the basis for his lead in wins and innings, and adds to his massive edge in strikeouts. Maddux leads in ERA and is Mr. Consistency. The Total Baseball tools call the players close to even, rating Maddux's very best seasons as a bit better than Clemens' very best.
Maybe because of some limitation you can only watch 1 sport & maybe even just 1 team.That's a shame;maybe you should get some help so you can expand your viewing pleasure.
Just because Skip has the same last name as Harry sure doesn't make him a good broadcaster.Skips'son is better than he'll ever be.
Dons'not too bad,the only problem with him,is he has to work work with Skip.My point about the play-by-play guys & I'll try to make this real simple so even you can understand it is that they help make watching the Braves very boring.
If you actually read my post you will also see that I said Greg was a very good pitcher & the fact that he is boring was why he didn't get endorsements like other more exciting players do.
But you keep watching those Braves Derrick & if you get the chance you might want to check out the Atlanta Falcons too;that's an NFL football team that plays in Atlanta.See,then you can be like the rest of us & enjoy more than just 1 sport.Atlanta also has an NHL team with 2 of the most promising Rookies in this years draft playing for them.Now that's exciting team sports;Ilya will have many more endorsements before its all said & done than Greggy ever will & he can hardly speak English yet.
Dad & Son
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Sandy Koufax posted a 2.49 ERA from 1959 through 1966; Tom Seaver held opponents to 2.43 runs per nine innings from 1968 through 1975; and Juan Marichal had a 2.46 ERA from 1962 through 1969.
Those three pitchers could overpower hitters in ways Maddux never will. His fastball is typically 89-90 mph, which is just average major league velocity. His slider isn't as sharp or as devastating as teammate John Smoltz's. And Maddux's curveball doesn't have a knee-buckling snap on the order of former St. Louis pitcher Darryl Kile (R.I.P.). What Maddux possesses is an extraordinary changeup, along with exceptionally late movement on his pitches.
I remember Wade Boggs of the Yankees saying once... "Maddux has the illusionary ability to throw what looks like a strike, and it's really not. He's the David Copperfield of pitchers."
We've both discussed this over and over, it does have something to do with Clemens having more wins, but Clemens also has more than 1,000 more strikeouts, which have nothing to do with that 3 season span.
So how does Clemens have less losses in 3 more seasons than Maddux??
Just answer that one.
BTW-Wade Boggs was a Red Sox, and always will be a Red Sox, he just realized he couldn't win a ring in Boston.