@Che_Grapes said:
I will no longer sell coins on eBay / I make 5 to 10k / year selling coins I find at shows, etc and did really well last year selling almost 12k - not a lot of money but it’s just a hobby for me and not my job I use for income. But still - if they are going to start taxing it like this then eBay is no longer like the “internet garage sale” it started out to be which was basically a tax free marketplace - so to think I could get a 1099 for 13k to add to my taxable income - you can forget about that I am OUT of the coin business —
Oh no! You can no longer flagrantly run afoul of the tax laws. And now you won’t make that money. So, so sad! Nothing makes me more proud to be a tax-paying citizen than knowing I’m competing with tax cheats.
Keep drinking the Kool Aid....how is the view from your soapbox with your nose so far up in the air?🤔
And what kool aid am I drinking, exactly? Here’s a law. I follow it. Scandalous! 😮
Besides, I have a plane. I can get way higher than the best soap box you can find. The view is amazing.
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
@Che_Grapes said:
I will no longer sell coins on eBay / I make 5 to 10k / year selling coins I find at shows, etc and did really well last year selling almost 12k - not a lot of money but it’s just a hobby for me and not my job I use for income. But still - if they are going to start taxing it like this then eBay is no longer like the “internet garage sale” it started out to be which was basically a tax free marketplace - so to think I could get a 1099 for 13k to add to my taxable income - you can forget about that I am OUT of the coin business —
Oh no! You can no longer flagrantly run afoul of the tax laws. And now you won’t make that money. So, so sad! Nothing makes me more proud to be a tax-paying citizen than knowing I’m competing with tax cheats.
Keep drinking the Kool Aid....how is the view from your soapbox with your nose so far up in the air?🤔
And what kool aid am I drinking, exactly? Here’s a law. I follow it. Scandalous! 😮
Besides, I have a plane. I can get way higher than the best soap box you can find. The view is amazing.
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
Your brand of anarchy is beyond inspiring! ROTFLMAO.
Nobody LIKES paying their taxes. If I had more say-so about how my tax money was spent, I'd feel better about paying them. That being said, laws are laws. Pay your taxes.
@Tibor said:
I was at the ANA this past August. On two different transactions I bought $1200
of ASEs. No receipt offered each time. 3 years from when I go to sell I will most
likely get a 1099K. Where is my proof? I paid cash each time and got a $1.50
per discount.
I just don't see most people with $3000 (or whatever) in collectible/bullion sales being audited. If you are honest with your basis and are able to show that ASEs were generally selling for whatever they were selling for on those days, I'd assume you would pass an audit or just have a slight adjustment. Best to keep a note with the price paid and date would be helpful, though.
@Che_Grapes said:
I will no longer sell coins on eBay / I make 5 to 10k / year selling coins I find at shows, etc and did really well last year selling almost 12k - not a lot of money but it’s just a hobby for me and not my job I use for income. But still - if they are going to start taxing it like this then eBay is no longer like the “internet garage sale” it started out to be which was basically a tax free marketplace - so to think I could get a 1099 for 13k to add to my taxable income - you can forget about that I am OUT of the coin business —
Oh no! You can no longer flagrantly run afoul of the tax laws. And now you won’t make that money. So, so sad! Nothing makes me more proud to be a tax-paying citizen than knowing I’m competing with tax cheats.
Keep drinking the Kool Aid....how is the view from your soapbox with your nose so far up in the air?🤔
And what kool aid am I drinking, exactly? Here’s a law. I follow it. Scandalous! 😮
Besides, I have a plane. I can get way higher than the best soap box you can find. The view is amazing.
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
Your brand of anarchy is beyond inspiring! ROTFLMAO.
Because I'm not advocating for revolution? Until I'm ready to overthrow the current government, the rules are the rules. And anyone defying them is doing it out of greed target not principled resistance or they wouldn't be hiding it.
Beyond that, anarchy or libertarianism is not about a lack of social order. It's about a lack of government control. There is still a fairness doctrine. Or is that being your ken?
I never mentioned anarchy in this thread. I mentioned IRS rules. You've twisted it into some kind of political debate even though the point in this thread should be obvious even to you:
Taxes were always owed on profits or capital gains.
Would you refute that?
I would prefer a form of absolute libertarianism. In the absence of that, if I am forced to live in this current democratic socialist construct, I want everyone to live by the same rules I'm forced to abide. There is nothing contradictory in that position. It is also NOT what this thread was about. However, in typical fashion, you prefer to take your little petty pot shots at me even if it derails the thread.
The funny thing to me is the people who are no longer going to sell because they have to pay tax. Even at 30% if you make a dollar, you pay the 30c and keep 70c. I have clients every year ask me if they should work less overtime or some form of that so they don’t have to pay more tax.
Sure you make an extra $1000 and have to give up a couple hundred of it. You don’t need that extra $800. Maybe you should work even less.
If you profit you are taxed. Only on the PROFIT. You owed that tax before the 1099k reporting rule.
If you sell at a loss you owe no tax.
Start keeping records now and moving forward of your cost basis. Most likely you will never have to prove cost to anyone. If you are ever asked and have a reasonable position you will be fine.
Pain? Sure. All the talk about how billionaires need to pay their fair share. Seems like lots of tax avoidance going on all over the pay scale.
The strange thing is that people are talking about paying taxes when the obligation is to run all your income through an accountant or filing program. Someone makes $1000 profit after working in the 10% plus ebay costs; their shipping costs; their travelling to and from coin shows and other related costs. The tax on that is not that much anyway.
So Jesus says to them, "Well, then, pay to the Emperor what belongs to the Emperor, and pay to God what belongs to God." So, Jesus did not oppose the payment of taxes.
I have seen dealers who have incorporated companies and keep all paperwork criticizing collectors who in general do not keep proper records. I am a collector and have no problems with reporting the 1099-K income but there is this hassle of keeping receipts from long ago, filling up the tax form for possibly a small loss and in my case paying my CPA (don't do it myself due to the nature of my taxes). Me and many collectors have almost no profits after all the fees and have to endure the additional hassle. It's just not worth the time or effort. I am sure there would be lots of efforts being spent by the IRS to ensure compliance and wonder if these are worth what they would bring in! If government were a corporate entity then definitely won't do this and has to take a commonsense approach.
Your employer has been sending a 1099 (your W-2) to the IRS throughout your entire working career. There would be no need for 1099s if there were no tax cheats. Maybe the coming and dreaded central bank digital currency (CBDC) individual banking accounts, where every dollar associated with you is tracked at one place, will ease the complex income reporting requirements.
The problem I have with 1099s is the extra burden/costs the IRS imposes on private citizens/organizations that are required to prepare and distribute them. They are in affect turning the private sector into IRS agents who do not receive IRS pay or benefits. It is forced deputization of the private sector. Also one is not sure who will be sending them a 1099 and one must wait to file.
Payment processors such as Paypal, Venmo and Ebay are telling you and the IRS, on a 1099, how much money you received from them. If this money is from sales you have always been required to pay taxes on it. IRS is simply requiring these payment processors to help motivate you to accurately report income.
The bottom line for collectors and sellers on this 1099 mess is to realize that for every dollar that appears on a 1099 you receive, that dollar amount or more better show up on your tax return as income. Best way to do this is a Schedule C (business income reporting) that allows you to deduct various expenses including the state sales taxes that were processed through your ebay account. You do not have to be a licensed business to use Schedule C. Simply report zero inventory for the beginning of the year and zero inventory for the end of the year.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
@koincollect said:
I have seen dealers who have incorporated companies and keep all paperwork criticizing collectors who in general do not keep proper records. I am a collector and have no problems with reporting the 1099-K income but there is this hassle of keeping receipts from long ago, filling up the tax form for possibly a small loss and in my case paying my CPA (don't do it myself due to the nature of my taxes). Me and many collectors have almost no profits after all the fees and have to endure the additional hassle. It's just not worth the time or effort. I am sure there would be lots of efforts being spent by the IRS to ensure compliance and wonder if these are worth what they would bring in! If government were a corporate entity then definitely won't do this and has to take a commonsense approach.
You make some good points.
Yes, it is a hassle
Correct ,most likely the average collector will have little or no profit and pay virtually no tax.
But where I believe you may not be seeing the big picture is the people(businesses) who were not reporting income just because they didn’t receive the 1099k.
200 transactions and $20k in income.
Imagine if you will a coin business who sells 50k on eBay using PayPal but only 60 transactions. Zelle or Venmo for all other non cash transactions. Could be hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales not reported.
These are the people that the law was changed to get. Unfortunately the only way to do it is a blanket new reporting rule.
Even in this thread one person said they sold 10-13k a year and now that they have to report it they’ll stop. Sure.
It’s the same as sales tax. For years we were on the honor system of reporting out of state purchases to our home state. Virtually nobody did so the state sued the retailer and now amazon and eBay are forced to collect the tax.
Interesting all of the above.
But.... the IRS or whoever, will need to hire a ton more inspectors..... the guys who ring your door bell and want to see your receipts or and other things that you use to justify your deductions... paper work will be amazing....
I am a collector and have no problems with reporting the 1099-K income but there is this hassle of keeping receipts from long ago, filling up the tax form for possibly a small loss and in my case paying my CPA (don't do it myself due to the nature of my taxes). Me and many collectors have almost no profits after all the fees and have to endure the additional hassle. It's just not worth the time or effort.
The above is copied from a previous comment but this is not a reply to that particular poster. I, too, do not like the hassles involved with record keeping and such, but maybe expanding these hassles to include even more people will help open their eyes to what a smaller segment of the society routinely has to deal with. It's a lot easier to ignore their existence when you are not personally affected by them. Rather than focusing on the hassles, perhaps some attention might be directed towards where the hassles originate in an effort to reduce them for everybody.
Now, lets assume Jack has been collecting coins for the last 50 years and obviously, bought some items way back and for very little money.
Now jack is 80 years old and wishes to sell his collection. AND is he hit now with a big bill?????
95 % of his purchases were for cash and he has NO receipts....
Also, what if he sells the whole collection as ONE lot?
Jack will not be a happy Camper......right? wrong???
@YQQ said:
Now, lets assume Jack has been collecting coins for the last 50 years and obviously, bought some items way back and for very little money.
Now jack is 80 years old and wishes to sell his collection. AND is he hit now with a big bill?????
95 % of his purchases were for cash and he has NO receipts....
Also, what if he sells the whole collection as ONE lot?
Jack will not be a happy Camper......right? wrong???
Jack would have been hit anyway. (unless his 50 year collection was not worth much, but over $600).
But, this is the point of this. Not buying and selling on the side, but selling off years worth of accumulations. Hard to determine a value and this is a paperwork nightmare. The "paperwork" cost is tremendous. Wonder if you can write off your time?
This would only be a "real" issue if you got hit with an audit.
Makes a cash only yard sale much more attractive.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
@YQQ said:
Now, lets assume Jack has been collecting coins for the last 50 years and obviously, bought some items way back and for very little money.
Now jack is 80 years old and wishes to sell his collection. AND is he hit now with a big bill?????
95 % of his purchases were for cash and he has NO receipts....
Also, what if he sells the whole collection as ONE lot?
Jack will not be a happy Camper......right? wrong???
Do you think the IRS would accept my personal purchase logs, as prima facie evidence of what I paid for my coins?
@YQQ said:
Interesting all of the above.
But.... the IRS or whoever, will need to hire a ton more inspectors..... the guys who ring your door bell and want to see your receipts or and other things that you use to justify your deductions... paper work will be amazing....
They don't ring every doorbell. If your 1099k isn't reported on your taxes, they simply send you a bill. Then you either just pay it or amend your return to include it.
@YQQ said:
Now, lets assume Jack has been collecting coins for the last 50 years and obviously, bought some items way back and for very little money.
Now jack is 80 years old and wishes to sell his collection. AND is he hit now with a big bill?????
95 % of his purchases were for cash and he has NO receipts....
Also, what if he sells the whole collection as ONE lot?
Jack will not be a happy Camper......right? wrong???
Do you think the IRS would accept my personal purchase logs, as prima facie evidence of what I paid for my coins?
@YQQ said:
Now, lets assume Jack has been collecting coins for the last 50 years and obviously, bought some items way back and for very little money.
Now jack is 80 years old and wishes to sell his collection. AND is he hit now with a big bill?????
95 % of his purchases were for cash and he has NO receipts....
Also, what if he sells the whole collection as ONE lot?
Jack will not be a happy Camper......right? wrong???
Do you think the IRS would accept my personal purchase logs, as prima facie evidence of what I paid for my coins?
Sure the IRS may have to hire more people, but that’s the point of the 1099k. W2’s 1099s etc allow for a computer to cross check income. W2 says 10,000 better have 10,000 listed as wages otherwise a letter gets automatically generated.
1099k same thing. Before you were on the honor system. Now if that 1099k doesn’t match other income reported somewhere on the return, out pops a letter. If you receive a letter and respond with the info request to contest, a real person May look at it. If you forgot to report and feel you owe the amount you mail a check.
Either way “Jack” was required by law to report already. The 1099k only keeps him honest. And arguably if “Jack” had any substantial collection or tax obligation he should contact a CPA or other tax professional to come up with a strategy to minimize tax legally.
@TheMayor said:
Now if that 1099k doesn’t match other income reported somewhere on the return, out pops a letter. If you receive a letter and respond with the info request to contest, a real person May look at it. If you forgot to report and feel you owe the amount you mail a check.
My 1099k income for 2019 was reported on schedule D (sale of my capital asset coin/bullion investments) and their computer didn't see a match and out popped a CP2000 letter for $18k in owed taxes. Did the reply thing explaining my paypal payment processing was for capital assets and the income was reported on the D. Explanation denied, stating that merchant income should be on Schedule C. They failed to understand that my reply explained I was an investor, not a merchant. And yes, when I stated investing in such items I called the IRS to confirm I could use a Schedule D. Appears the IRS is incorrectly determining that 1099k income is strictly "merchant" sales income.
Called IRS and agent I spoke with (this is the second real person to look at my return) agreed that the income was reported on the return and that she would look further into it and attempt to make the problem go away. Awaiting correspondence telling me the outcome. If that fails, I will amend the return moving the sales to a Schedule C. Good thing I keep good records. For this reason I will no longer use D and will report all future income on C.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
@Che_Grapes said:
I will no longer sell coins on eBay / I make 5 to 10k / year selling coins I find at shows, etc and did really well last year selling almost 12k - not a lot of money but it’s just a hobby for me and not my job I use for income. But still - if they are going to start taxing it like this then eBay is no longer like the “internet garage sale” it started out to be which was basically a tax free marketplace - so to think I could get a 1099 for 13k to add to my taxable income - you can forget about that I am OUT of the coin business —
Oh no! You can no longer flagrantly run afoul of the tax laws. And now you won’t make that money. So, so sad! Nothing makes me more proud to be a tax-paying citizen than knowing I’m competing with tax cheats.
Keep drinking the Kool Aid....how is the view from your soapbox with your nose so far up in the air?🤔
And what kool aid am I drinking, exactly? Here’s a law. I follow it. Scandalous! 😮
Besides, I have a plane. I can get way higher than the best soap box you can find. The view is amazing.
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
Your brand of anarchy is beyond inspiring! ROTFLMAO.
Because I'm not advocating for revolution? Until I'm ready to overthrow the current government, the rules are the rules. And anyone defying them is doing it out of greed target not principled resistance or they wouldn't be hiding it.
Beyond that, anarchy or libertarianism is not about a lack of social order. It's about a lack of government control. There is still a fairness doctrine. Or is that being your ken?
I never mentioned anarchy in this thread. I mentioned IRS rules. You've twisted it into some kind of political debate even though the point in this thread should be obvious even to you:
Taxes were always owed on profits or capital gains.
Would you refute that?
I would prefer a form of absolute libertarianism. In the absence of that, if I am forced to live in this current democratic socialist construct, I want everyone to live by the same rules I'm forced to abide. There is nothing contradictory in that position. It is also NOT what this thread was about. However, in typical fashion, you prefer to take your little petty pot shots at me even if it derails the thread.
Happy January 6th. You're a true revolutionary.
On this board, you very recently referred to yourself as an "anarchist at heart". I'm just pointing out the absurdity of such a statement based on your comments here. Note that I haven't stated a position on the subject at hand one way or the other, but if you view me as a revolutionary in the abstract, I guess I'm honored to hold that place in your fantasy world.
@derryb said:
In affect your employer has been sending a 1099 (your W-2) to the IRS throughout your entire working career. There would be no need for 1099s if there were no tax cheats. Maybe the coming and dreaded central bank digital currency (CBDC) individual banking accounts, where every dollar associated with you is tracked at one place, will ease the complex income reporting requirements.
The problem I have with 1099s is the extra burden/costs the IRS imposes on private citizens/organizations that are required to prepare and distribute them. They are in affect turning the private sector into IRS agents who do not receive IRS pay or benefits. It is forced deputization of the private sector. Also one is not sure who will be sending them a 1099 and one must wait to file.
Payment processors such as Paypal, Venmo and Ebay are telling you and the IRS, on a 1099, how much money you received from them. If this money is from sales you have always been required to pay taxes on it. IRS is simply requiring these payment processors to help motivate you to accurately report income.
The bottom line for collectors and sellers on this 1099 mess is to realize that for every dollar that appears on a 1099 you receive, that dollar amount or more better show up on your tax return as income. Best way to do this is a Schedule C (business income reporting) that allows you to deduct various expenses including the state sales taxes that were processed through your ebay account. You do not have to be a licensed business to use Schedule C. Simply report zero inventory for the beginning of the year and zero inventory for the end of the year.
Don't overlook the fact that under the tax law, filing Schedule C makes you a business. As a business, you are liable for the self-employment tax of 15.3% on your profits, as well as your income tax. When you are employed by someone else, you pay 7.65% and the employer pays 7.65% (yours is, of course, deducted automatically from your paycheck). Once you are self-employed, you pay the full 15.3% on your income (profits) from the business. If you are in the, say, 22% bracket on your taxable regular income, you will pay 22% + 15.3% = 37.3% on your business profits declared on Schedule C.
Don't overlook the fact that under the tax law, filing Schedule C makes you a business. As a business, you are liable for the self-employment tax of 15.3% on your profits, as well as your income tax. When you are employed by someone else, you pay 7.65% and the employer pays 7.65% (yours is, of course, deducted automatically from your paycheck). Once you are self-employed, you pay the full 15.3% on your income (profits) from the business. If you are in the, say, 22% bracket on your taxable regular income, you will pay 22% + 15.3% = 37.3% on your business profits declared on Schedule C.
SE is the primary reason why I chose to be an investor instead of a retailer. Keep in mind that as an investor I was selling collectibles which face a higher tax rate. Hopefully, with the "C" my ability to claim more expense items will help offset some of the SE tax. And, hopefully any SE tax paid will increase my current $126 social security check. lol.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
@YQQ said:
Interesting all of the above.
But.... the IRS or whoever, will need to hire a ton more inspectors..... the guys who ring your door bell and want to see your receipts or and other things that you use to justify your deductions... paper work will be amazing....
I believe the IRS requires you to come to them in the event of an audit. And yes, your paperwork should be amazing.
Appears the IRS is moving more toward virtual auditing with things like the 1099K and are automatically spitting out letters for discrepancies rather than a full blown, live audit. I suspect they are now saving that as a feared weapon and as a last resort.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
@TheMayor said:
Now if that 1099k doesn’t match other income reported somewhere on the return, out pops a letter. If you receive a letter and respond with the info request to contest, a real person May look at it. If you forgot to report and feel you owe the amount you mail a check.
My 1099k income for 2019 was reported on schedule D (sale of my capital asset coin/bullion investments) and their computer didn't see a match and out popped a CP2000 letter for $18k in owed taxes. Did the reply thing explaining my paypal payment processing was for capital assets and the income was reported on the D. Explanation denied, stating that merchant income should be on Schedule C. They failed to understand that my reply explained I was an investor, not a merchant. And yes, when I stated investing in such items I called the IRS to confirm I could use a Schedule D. Appears the IRS is incorrectly determining that 1099k income is strictly "merchant" sales income.
Called IRS and agent I spoke with (this is the second real person to look at my return) agreed that the income was reported on the return and that she would look further into it and attempt to make the problem go away. Awaiting correspondence telling me the outcome. If that fails, I will amend the return moving the sales to a Schedule C. Good thing I keep good records. For this reason I will no longer use D and will report all future income on C.
Every time that I have had to deal with this issue, the letter was sufficient. Even when the person was using paypal for both business and personal use. But, as with your situation, I suppose it depends on who the person is, and whether or not they are a hard XXX. I suspect that this may be an issue that they will have to deal with moving forward because if you are not in business, you should not be filing Sch. C. And they need to make sure that they link both sch c and D to the income.
There is the option of e-filing a statement along with the original return, which may get a real person to look at it sooner, but that may not be a good thing.
But the IRS gets to decide whether or not you are in business and if they require the Sch C, you will be able to deduct more of the cost of doing business expenses.
@Che_Grapes said:
I will no longer sell coins on eBay / I make 5 to 10k / year selling coins I find at shows, etc and did really well last year selling almost 12k - not a lot of money but it’s just a hobby for me and not my job I use for income. But still - if they are going to start taxing it like this then eBay is no longer like the “internet garage sale” it started out to be which was basically a tax free marketplace - so to think I could get a 1099 for 13k to add to my taxable income - you can forget about that I am OUT of the coin business —
Oh no! You can no longer flagrantly run afoul of the tax laws. And now you won’t make that money. So, so sad! Nothing makes me more proud to be a tax-paying citizen than knowing I’m competing with tax cheats.
Keep drinking the Kool Aid....how is the view from your soapbox with your nose so far up in the air?🤔
And what kool aid am I drinking, exactly? Here’s a law. I follow it. Scandalous! 😮
Besides, I have a plane. I can get way higher than the best soap box you can find. The view is amazing.
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
Your brand of anarchy is beyond inspiring! ROTFLMAO.
Because I'm not advocating for revolution? Until I'm ready to overthrow the current government, the rules are the rules. And anyone defying them is doing it out of greed target not principled resistance or they wouldn't be hiding it.
Beyond that, anarchy or libertarianism is not about a lack of social order. It's about a lack of government control. There is still a fairness doctrine. Or is that being your ken?
I never mentioned anarchy in this thread. I mentioned IRS rules. You've twisted it into some kind of political debate even though the point in this thread should be obvious even to you:
Taxes were always owed on profits or capital gains.
Would you refute that?
I would prefer a form of absolute libertarianism. In the absence of that, if I am forced to live in this current democratic socialist construct, I want everyone to live by the same rules I'm forced to abide. There is nothing contradictory in that position. It is also NOT what this thread was about. However, in typical fashion, you prefer to take your little petty pot shots at me even if it derails the thread.
Happy January 6th. You're a true revolutionary.
On this board, you very recently referred to yourself as an "anarchist at heart". I'm just pointing out the absurdity of such a statement based on your comments here. Note that I haven't stated a position on the subject at hand one way or the other, but if you view me as a revolutionary in the abstract, I guess I'm honored to hold that place in your fantasy world.
An "anarchist at heart" is not a "rulebreaker in practice". I would say more, but there is no need to get unduly political. I believe in fairness. Some people paying taxes and some people not paying taxes on the same thing is neither anarchical nor socialist. It is simply unfair.
You are considering "anarchy" to be disordered. While that is sometimes the way it is portrayed, there are anarchists who believe that the social order arises between private individuals rather than dictated by the government. As such, it is not a state of social disorder where everyone just does whatever they wish.
I don't view you as anything. But if you think my anarchical bent requires me to embrace chaotic disregard for the current rules, then you must be insisting that I engage in revolution or I can't consider myself to be "an anarchist at heart".
I didn't vote, for example, for the current President. I don't like much of what he stands for and I question his competence. However, I still consider him to be the President and (until we are ready for the revolution) I expect that the existing laws be uniformly enforced and obeyed. I'm not sure why you don't understand that.
I also believe that, like communism, anarchy requires a more perfect citizenry than currently exists.
@Che_Grapes said:
I will no longer sell coins on eBay / I make 5 to 10k / year selling coins I find at shows, etc and did really well last year selling almost 12k - not a lot of money but it’s just a hobby for me and not my job I use for income. But still - if they are going to start taxing it like this then eBay is no longer like the “internet garage sale” it started out to be which was basically a tax free marketplace - so to think I could get a 1099 for 13k to add to my taxable income - you can forget about that I am OUT of the coin business —
Oh no! You can no longer flagrantly run afoul of the tax laws. And now you won’t make that money. So, so sad! Nothing makes me more proud to be a tax-paying citizen than knowing I’m competing with tax cheats.
Keep drinking the Kool Aid....how is the view from your soapbox with your nose so far up in the air?🤔
And what kool aid am I drinking, exactly? Here’s a law. I follow it. Scandalous! 😮
Besides, I have a plane. I can get way higher than the best soap box you can find. The view is amazing.
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
Your brand of anarchy is beyond inspiring! ROTFLMAO.
Because I'm not advocating for revolution? Until I'm ready to overthrow the current government, the rules are the rules. And anyone defying them is doing it out of greed target not principled resistance or they wouldn't be hiding it.
Beyond that, anarchy or libertarianism is not about a lack of social order. It's about a lack of government control. There is still a fairness doctrine. Or is that being your ken?
I never mentioned anarchy in this thread. I mentioned IRS rules. You've twisted it into some kind of political debate even though the point in this thread should be obvious even to you:
Taxes were always owed on profits or capital gains.
Would you refute that?
I would prefer a form of absolute libertarianism. In the absence of that, if I am forced to live in this current democratic socialist construct, I want everyone to live by the same rules I'm forced to abide. There is nothing contradictory in that position. It is also NOT what this thread was about. However, in typical fashion, you prefer to take your little petty pot shots at me even if it derails the thread.
Happy January 6th. You're a true revolutionary.
On this board, you very recently referred to yourself as an "anarchist at heart". I'm just pointing out the absurdity of such a statement based on your comments here. Note that I haven't stated a position on the subject at hand one way or the other, but if you view me as a revolutionary in the abstract, I guess I'm honored to hold that place in your fantasy world.
An "anarchist at heart" is not a "rulebreaker in practice". I would say more, but there is no need to get unduly political. I believe in fairness. Some people paying taxes and some people not paying taxes on the same thing is neither anarchical nor socialist. It is simply unfair.
You are considering "anarchy" to be disordered. While that is sometimes the way it is portrayed, there are anarchists who believe that the social order arises between private individuals rather than dictated by the government. As such, it is not a state of social disorder where everyone just does whatever they wish.
I don't view you as anything. But if you think my anarchical bent requires me to embrace chaotic disregard for the current rules, then you must be insisting that I engage in revolution or I can't consider myself to be "an anarchist at heart".
I didn't vote, for example, for the current President. I don't like much of what he stands for and I question his competence. However, I still consider him to be the President and (until we are ready for the revolution) I expect that the existing laws be uniformly enforced and obeyed. I'm not sure why you don't understand that.
I also believe that, like communism, anarchy requires a more perfect citizenry than currently exists.
Your definition of "anarchy" differs from the more common usages and meanings. Most definitions include the notion of disorder, rebellion, violence, etc. Anarchism as a political theory is what you are referring to, but that is a difficult distinction when just saying anarchy or anarchist. Libertarianism much better fits your usage much better. Probably part of the confusion.
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@Che_Grapes said:
I will no longer sell coins on eBay / I make 5 to 10k / year selling coins I find at shows, etc and did really well last year selling almost 12k - not a lot of money but it’s just a hobby for me and not my job I use for income. But still - if they are going to start taxing it like this then eBay is no longer like the “internet garage sale” it started out to be which was basically a tax free marketplace - so to think I could get a 1099 for 13k to add to my taxable income - you can forget about that I am OUT of the coin business —
Oh no! You can no longer flagrantly run afoul of the tax laws. And now you won’t make that money. So, so sad! Nothing makes me more proud to be a tax-paying citizen than knowing I’m competing with tax cheats.
Keep drinking the Kool Aid....how is the view from your soapbox with your nose so far up in the air?🤔
And what kool aid am I drinking, exactly? Here’s a law. I follow it. Scandalous! 😮
Besides, I have a plane. I can get way higher than the best soap box you can find. The view is amazing.
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
Your brand of anarchy is beyond inspiring! ROTFLMAO.
Because I'm not advocating for revolution? Until I'm ready to overthrow the current government, the rules are the rules. And anyone defying them is doing it out of greed target not principled resistance or they wouldn't be hiding it.
Beyond that, anarchy or libertarianism is not about a lack of social order. It's about a lack of government control. There is still a fairness doctrine. Or is that being your ken?
I never mentioned anarchy in this thread. I mentioned IRS rules. You've twisted it into some kind of political debate even though the point in this thread should be obvious even to you:
Taxes were always owed on profits or capital gains.
Would you refute that?
I would prefer a form of absolute libertarianism. In the absence of that, if I am forced to live in this current democratic socialist construct, I want everyone to live by the same rules I'm forced to abide. There is nothing contradictory in that position. It is also NOT what this thread was about. However, in typical fashion, you prefer to take your little petty pot shots at me even if it derails the thread.
Happy January 6th. You're a true revolutionary.
On this board, you very recently referred to yourself as an "anarchist at heart". I'm just pointing out the absurdity of such a statement based on your comments here. Note that I haven't stated a position on the subject at hand one way or the other, but if you view me as a revolutionary in the abstract, I guess I'm honored to hold that place in your fantasy world.
An "anarchist at heart" is not a "rulebreaker in practice". I would say more, but there is no need to get unduly political. I believe in fairness. Some people paying taxes and some people not paying taxes on the same thing is neither anarchical nor socialist. It is simply unfair.
You are considering "anarchy" to be disordered. While that is sometimes the way it is portrayed, there are anarchists who believe that the social order arises between private individuals rather than dictated by the government. As such, it is not a state of social disorder where everyone just does whatever they wish.
I don't view you as anything. But if you think my anarchical bent requires me to embrace chaotic disregard for the current rules, then you must be insisting that I engage in revolution or I can't consider myself to be "an anarchist at heart".
I didn't vote, for example, for the current President. I don't like much of what he stands for and I question his competence. However, I still consider him to be the President and (until we are ready for the revolution) I expect that the existing laws be uniformly enforced and obeyed. I'm not sure why you don't understand that.
I also believe that, like communism, anarchy requires a more perfect citizenry than currently exists.
Your definition of "anarchy" differs from the more common usages and meanings. Most definitions include the notion of disorder, rebellion, violence, etc. Anarchism as a political theory is what you are referring to, but that is a difficult distinction when just saying anarchy or anarchist. Libertarianism much better fits your usage much better. Probably part of the confusion.
Yes, that is a common definition, but not the only one.
See definition 2:
a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority or other controlling systems:
"he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
2.
the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.
specifically: "In practical terms, anarchy can refer to the curtailment or abolition of traditional forms of government and institutions. It can also designate a nation or any inhabited place that has no system of government or central rule. Anarchy is primarily advocated by individual anarchists who propose replacing government with voluntary institutions. These true institutions or associations generally are modeled on nature since they can represent concepts such as community and economic self-reliance, interdependence, or individualism. Although anarchy is often negatively used as a synonym of chaos or societal collapse, this is not the meaning that anarchists attribute to anarchy, a society without hierarchies."
I used to consider myself Libertarian...then I got REALLY tired of the government.
Nonetheless, we do not have a Libertarian or Anarchical form of government. So, PAY YOUR DAMN TAXES
There really is no confusion. I didn't mention "anarchy" on this thread at all until @someonewhowillremainnameless decided to recall my prior assertion that I'm an "anarchist by nature" to somehow suggest that I should embrace tax avoidance as a result.
@Che_Grapes said:
I will no longer sell coins on eBay / I make 5 to 10k / year selling coins I find at shows, etc and did really well last year selling almost 12k - not a lot of money but it’s just a hobby for me and not my job I use for income. But still - if they are going to start taxing it like this then eBay is no longer like the “internet garage sale” it started out to be which was basically a tax free marketplace - so to think I could get a 1099 for 13k to add to my taxable income - you can forget about that I am OUT of the coin business —
Oh no! You can no longer flagrantly run afoul of the tax laws. And now you won’t make that money. So, so sad! Nothing makes me more proud to be a tax-paying citizen than knowing I’m competing with tax cheats.
Keep drinking the Kool Aid....how is the view from your soapbox with your nose so far up in the air?🤔
And what kool aid am I drinking, exactly? Here’s a law. I follow it. Scandalous! 😮
Besides, I have a plane. I can get way higher than the best soap box you can find. The view is amazing.
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
Your brand of anarchy is beyond inspiring! ROTFLMAO.
Because I'm not advocating for revolution? Until I'm ready to overthrow the current government, the rules are the rules. And anyone defying them is doing it out of greed target not principled resistance or they wouldn't be hiding it.
Beyond that, anarchy or libertarianism is not about a lack of social order. It's about a lack of government control. There is still a fairness doctrine. Or is that being your ken?
I never mentioned anarchy in this thread. I mentioned IRS rules. You've twisted it into some kind of political debate even though the point in this thread should be obvious even to you:
Taxes were always owed on profits or capital gains.
Would you refute that?
I would prefer a form of absolute libertarianism. In the absence of that, if I am forced to live in this current democratic socialist construct, I want everyone to live by the same rules I'm forced to abide. There is nothing contradictory in that position. It is also NOT what this thread was about. However, in typical fashion, you prefer to take your little petty pot shots at me even if it derails the thread.
Happy January 6th. You're a true revolutionary.
On this board, you very recently referred to yourself as an "anarchist at heart". I'm just pointing out the absurdity of such a statement based on your comments here. Note that I haven't stated a position on the subject at hand one way or the other, but if you view me as a revolutionary in the abstract, I guess I'm honored to hold that place in your fantasy world.
An "anarchist at heart" is not a "rulebreaker in practice". I would say more, but there is no need to get unduly political. I believe in fairness. Some people paying taxes and some people not paying taxes on the same thing is neither anarchical nor socialist. It is simply unfair.
You are considering "anarchy" to be disordered. While that is sometimes the way it is portrayed, there are anarchists who believe that the social order arises between private individuals rather than dictated by the government. As such, it is not a state of social disorder where everyone just does whatever they wish.
I don't view you as anything. But if you think my anarchical bent requires me to embrace chaotic disregard for the current rules, then you must be insisting that I engage in revolution or I can't consider myself to be "an anarchist at heart".
[inappropriate political commentary redacted]
I also believe that, like communism, anarchy requires a more perfect citizenry than currently exists.
Google "definition of anarchy" and you get:
(1) a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority
(2) absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal
I guess maybe you are an anarchist when it comes to word definitions. As an aside, I'm glad you found "no need to get unduly political" before gracing us with your view on the current president.
@Che_Grapes said:
I will no longer sell coins on eBay / I make 5 to 10k / year selling coins I find at shows, etc and did really well last year selling almost 12k - not a lot of money but it’s just a hobby for me and not my job I use for income. But still - if they are going to start taxing it like this then eBay is no longer like the “internet garage sale” it started out to be which was basically a tax free marketplace - so to think I could get a 1099 for 13k to add to my taxable income - you can forget about that I am OUT of the coin business —
Oh no! You can no longer flagrantly run afoul of the tax laws. And now you won’t make that money. So, so sad! Nothing makes me more proud to be a tax-paying citizen than knowing I’m competing with tax cheats.
Keep drinking the Kool Aid....how is the view from your soapbox with your nose so far up in the air?🤔
And what kool aid am I drinking, exactly? Here’s a law. I follow it. Scandalous! 😮
Besides, I have a plane. I can get way higher than the best soap box you can find. The view is amazing.
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
Your brand of anarchy is beyond inspiring! ROTFLMAO.
Because I'm not advocating for revolution? Until I'm ready to overthrow the current government, the rules are the rules. And anyone defying them is doing it out of greed target not principled resistance or they wouldn't be hiding it.
Beyond that, anarchy or libertarianism is not about a lack of social order. It's about a lack of government control. There is still a fairness doctrine. Or is that being your ken?
I never mentioned anarchy in this thread. I mentioned IRS rules. You've twisted it into some kind of political debate even though the point in this thread should be obvious even to you:
Taxes were always owed on profits or capital gains.
Would you refute that?
I would prefer a form of absolute libertarianism. In the absence of that, if I am forced to live in this current democratic socialist construct, I want everyone to live by the same rules I'm forced to abide. There is nothing contradictory in that position. It is also NOT what this thread was about. However, in typical fashion, you prefer to take your little petty pot shots at me even if it derails the thread.
Happy January 6th. You're a true revolutionary.
On this board, you very recently referred to yourself as an "anarchist at heart". I'm just pointing out the absurdity of such a statement based on your comments here. Note that I haven't stated a position on the subject at hand one way or the other, but if you view me as a revolutionary in the abstract, I guess I'm honored to hold that place in your fantasy world.
An "anarchist at heart" is not a "rulebreaker in practice". I would say more, but there is no need to get unduly political. I believe in fairness. Some people paying taxes and some people not paying taxes on the same thing is neither anarchical nor socialist. It is simply unfair.
You are considering "anarchy" to be disordered. While that is sometimes the way it is portrayed, there are anarchists who believe that the social order arises between private individuals rather than dictated by the government. As such, it is not a state of social disorder where everyone just does whatever they wish.
I don't view you as anything. But if you think my anarchical bent requires me to embrace chaotic disregard for the current rules, then you must be insisting that I engage in revolution or I can't consider myself to be "an anarchist at heart".
[inappropriate political commentary redacted]
I also believe that, like communism, anarchy requires a more perfect citizenry than currently exists.
Google "definition of anarchy" and you get:
(1) a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority
(2) absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal
I guess maybe you are an anarchist when it comes to word definitions. As an aside, I'm glad you found "no need to get unduly political" before gracing us with your view on the current president.
You created the entire topic. It was about tax avoidance.
See my more expansive post on the broader understanding of the practical application of "anarchy" since you are clearly not the authority.
@Che_Grapes said:
I will no longer sell coins on eBay / I make 5 to 10k / year selling coins I find at shows, etc and did really well last year selling almost 12k - not a lot of money but it’s just a hobby for me and not my job I use for income. But still - if they are going to start taxing it like this then eBay is no longer like the “internet garage sale” it started out to be which was basically a tax free marketplace - so to think I could get a 1099 for 13k to add to my taxable income - you can forget about that I am OUT of the coin business —
Oh no! You can no longer flagrantly run afoul of the tax laws. And now you won’t make that money. So, so sad! Nothing makes me more proud to be a tax-paying citizen than knowing I’m competing with tax cheats.
Keep drinking the Kool Aid....how is the view from your soapbox with your nose so far up in the air?🤔
And what kool aid am I drinking, exactly? Here’s a law. I follow it. Scandalous! 😮
Besides, I have a plane. I can get way higher than the best soap box you can find. The view is amazing.
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
Your brand of anarchy is beyond inspiring! ROTFLMAO.
Because I'm not advocating for revolution? Until I'm ready to overthrow the current government, the rules are the rules. And anyone defying them is doing it out of greed target not principled resistance or they wouldn't be hiding it.
Beyond that, anarchy or libertarianism is not about a lack of social order. It's about a lack of government control. There is still a fairness doctrine. Or is that being your ken?
I never mentioned anarchy in this thread. I mentioned IRS rules. You've twisted it into some kind of political debate even though the point in this thread should be obvious even to you:
Taxes were always owed on profits or capital gains.
Would you refute that?
I would prefer a form of absolute libertarianism. In the absence of that, if I am forced to live in this current democratic socialist construct, I want everyone to live by the same rules I'm forced to abide. There is nothing contradictory in that position. It is also NOT what this thread was about. However, in typical fashion, you prefer to take your little petty pot shots at me even if it derails the thread.
Happy January 6th. You're a true revolutionary.
On this board, you very recently referred to yourself as an "anarchist at heart". I'm just pointing out the absurdity of such a statement based on your comments here. Note that I haven't stated a position on the subject at hand one way or the other, but if you view me as a revolutionary in the abstract, I guess I'm honored to hold that place in your fantasy world.
An "anarchist at heart" is not a "rulebreaker in practice". I would say more, but there is no need to get unduly political. I believe in fairness. Some people paying taxes and some people not paying taxes on the same thing is neither anarchical nor socialist. It is simply unfair.
You are considering "anarchy" to be disordered. While that is sometimes the way it is portrayed, there are anarchists who believe that the social order arises between private individuals rather than dictated by the government. As such, it is not a state of social disorder where everyone just does whatever they wish.
I don't view you as anything. But if you think my anarchical bent requires me to embrace chaotic disregard for the current rules, then you must be insisting that I engage in revolution or I can't consider myself to be "an anarchist at heart".
[inappropriate political commentary redacted]
I also believe that, like communism, anarchy requires a more perfect citizenry than currently exists.
Google "definition of anarchy" and you get:
(1) a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority
(2) absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal
I guess maybe you are an anarchist when it comes to word definitions. As an aside, I'm glad you found "no need to get unduly political" before gracing us with your view on the current president.
You created the entire topic. It was about tax avoidance.
See my more expansive post on the broader understanding of the practical application of "anarchy" since you are clearly not the authority.
just wanted to see how small I could make the top post
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
And for anyone that thinks this is bad, many states are starting to require sales tax reporting beyond ONE in-state sale. I'm filing quarterly with my state even if I have 2-8 in-state transactions a year and no additional tax to pay.
I think several misunderstood my comment - I pay my taxes! But selling coins from my collection are coins that I paid tax on already. This is not a profit!! If you have a garage sale, do you claim that as earned income when you’re selling stuff that you already had purchased in the past? Of course not. I may sell 10k worth of coins / year but I also buy ~10k coins / year - yes I make some profit on a coin here and there but it’s mostly done as a hobby!!. I do not think I was cheating on taxes I did not say I profited 10k I said i sold 10k - BIG difference. I do it for fun and to trade with other collectors not to make a living - good grief we have some ‘attitude on this thread, don’t we??
So now I have to subtract the purchase price from my sale price and itemize that with the IRS? Maybe I made 10 dollars on a given coin after the math is all done. So, that’s my issue and the reason I will stop using eBay to buy and sell coins ...
@Che_Grapes said:
I think several misunderstood my comment - I pay my taxes! But selling coins from my collection are coins that I paid tax on already. This is not a profit!! If you have a garage sale, do you claim that as earned income when you’re selling stuff that you already had purchased in the past? Of course not. I may sell 10k worth of coins / year but I also buy ~10k coins / year - yes I make some profit on a coin here and there but it’s mostly done as a hobby!!. I do not think I was cheating on taxes I did not say I profited 10k I said i sold 10k - BIG difference. I do it for fun and to trade with other collectors not to make a living - good grief we have some ‘attitude on this thread, don’t we??
So now I have to subtract the purchase price from my sale price and itemize that with the IRS? Maybe I made 10 dollars on a given coin after the math is all done. So, that’s my issue and the reason I will stop using eBay to buy and sell coins ...
You don't have to pay tax on your entire sale, just the profits. No profits, no taxes.
@Che_Grapes said:
I think several misunderstood my comment - I pay my taxes! But selling coins from my collection are coins that I paid tax on already. This is not a profit!!
you paid sales tax when you bought your coins and when you sell them you have to pay income tax on any profit. This fact is as old as taxes are.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
You don't have to pay tax on your entire sale, just the profits. No profits, no taxes.
I understand that but the 1099 will only list the amount SOLD. So this means I will need to have a lot of receipts and paperwork required to show that it wasn’t all profit, and I don’t need a 1099 to say I made 10k when I probably made little or nothing because it is just a hobby. Furthermore It will require another form to itemize this as well, so even the cost to file taxes will go up. I’ve gotten 1099s before they are not fun to deal with ... and let’s say I sell a 5k coin I inherited from my father - which is not taxable since I inherited it, so I shouldn’t have to pay taxes on that but a 1099 will list it as if I earned 5k ... it just makes it no longer fun.
Comments
Yeah. Like tax avoidance is a firm of principled civil disobedience.
Here's your chance. Ignore the 1099. Ignore the 1040. Here's your chance to really SHOW that you haven't drunk the Kool-Aid.
Oh, yeah, that's right. It's just greed not principled civil disobedience.
Your brand of anarchy is beyond inspiring! ROTFLMAO.
Nobody LIKES paying their taxes. If I had more say-so about how my tax money was spent, I'd feel better about paying them. That being said, laws are laws. Pay your taxes.
I just don't see most people with $3000 (or whatever) in collectible/bullion sales being audited. If you are honest with your basis and are able to show that ASEs were generally selling for whatever they were selling for on those days, I'd assume you would pass an audit or just have a slight adjustment. Best to keep a note with the price paid and date would be helpful, though.
Because I'm not advocating for revolution? Until I'm ready to overthrow the current government, the rules are the rules. And anyone defying them is doing it out of greed target not principled resistance or they wouldn't be hiding it.
Beyond that, anarchy or libertarianism is not about a lack of social order. It's about a lack of government control. There is still a fairness doctrine. Or is that being your ken?
I never mentioned anarchy in this thread. I mentioned IRS rules. You've twisted it into some kind of political debate even though the point in this thread should be obvious even to you:
Would you refute that?
I would prefer a form of absolute libertarianism. In the absence of that, if I am forced to live in this current democratic socialist construct, I want everyone to live by the same rules I'm forced to abide. There is nothing contradictory in that position. It is also NOT what this thread was about. However, in typical fashion, you prefer to take your little petty pot shots at me even if it derails the thread.
Happy January 6th. You're a true revolutionary.
The funny thing to me is the people who are no longer going to sell because they have to pay tax. Even at 30% if you make a dollar, you pay the 30c and keep 70c. I have clients every year ask me if they should work less overtime or some form of that so they don’t have to pay more tax.
Sure you make an extra $1000 and have to give up a couple hundred of it. You don’t need that extra $800. Maybe you should work even less.
If you profit you are taxed. Only on the PROFIT. You owed that tax before the 1099k reporting rule.
If you sell at a loss you owe no tax.
Start keeping records now and moving forward of your cost basis. Most likely you will never have to prove cost to anyone. If you are ever asked and have a reasonable position you will be fine.
Pain? Sure. All the talk about how billionaires need to pay their fair share. Seems like lots of tax avoidance going on all over the pay scale.
My Ebay Store
The strange thing is that people are talking about paying taxes when the obligation is to run all your income through an accountant or filing program. Someone makes $1000 profit after working in the 10% plus ebay costs; their shipping costs; their travelling to and from coin shows and other related costs. The tax on that is not that much anyway.
Im going to stop generating income so I dont have to report anything! Take that IRS!
So Jesus says to them, "Well, then, pay to the Emperor what belongs to the Emperor, and pay to God what belongs to God." So, Jesus did not oppose the payment of taxes.
I have seen dealers who have incorporated companies and keep all paperwork criticizing collectors who in general do not keep proper records. I am a collector and have no problems with reporting the 1099-K income but there is this hassle of keeping receipts from long ago, filling up the tax form for possibly a small loss and in my case paying my CPA (don't do it myself due to the nature of my taxes). Me and many collectors have almost no profits after all the fees and have to endure the additional hassle. It's just not worth the time or effort. I am sure there would be lots of efforts being spent by the IRS to ensure compliance and wonder if these are worth what they would bring in! If government were a corporate entity then definitely won't do this and has to take a commonsense approach.
Your employer has been sending a 1099 (your W-2) to the IRS throughout your entire working career. There would be no need for 1099s if there were no tax cheats. Maybe the coming and dreaded central bank digital currency (CBDC) individual banking accounts, where every dollar associated with you is tracked at one place, will ease the complex income reporting requirements.
The problem I have with 1099s is the extra burden/costs the IRS imposes on private citizens/organizations that are required to prepare and distribute them. They are in affect turning the private sector into IRS agents who do not receive IRS pay or benefits. It is forced deputization of the private sector. Also one is not sure who will be sending them a 1099 and one must wait to file.
Payment processors such as Paypal, Venmo and Ebay are telling you and the IRS, on a 1099, how much money you received from them. If this money is from sales you have always been required to pay taxes on it. IRS is simply requiring these payment processors to help motivate you to accurately report income.
Explanation of the 1099 K and it's new $600 threshold.
The bottom line for collectors and sellers on this 1099 mess is to realize that for every dollar that appears on a 1099 you receive, that dollar amount or more better show up on your tax return as income. Best way to do this is a Schedule C (business income reporting) that allows you to deduct various expenses including the state sales taxes that were processed through your ebay account. You do not have to be a licensed business to use Schedule C. Simply report zero inventory for the beginning of the year and zero inventory for the end of the year.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
You make some good points.
Yes, it is a hassle
Correct ,most likely the average collector will have little or no profit and pay virtually no tax.
But where I believe you may not be seeing the big picture is the people(businesses) who were not reporting income just because they didn’t receive the 1099k.
200 transactions and $20k in income.
Imagine if you will a coin business who sells 50k on eBay using PayPal but only 60 transactions. Zelle or Venmo for all other non cash transactions. Could be hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales not reported.
These are the people that the law was changed to get. Unfortunately the only way to do it is a blanket new reporting rule.
Even in this thread one person said they sold 10-13k a year and now that they have to report it they’ll stop. Sure.
It’s the same as sales tax. For years we were on the honor system of reporting out of state purchases to our home state. Virtually nobody did so the state sued the retailer and now amazon and eBay are forced to collect the tax.
My Ebay Store
Interesting all of the above.
But.... the IRS or whoever, will need to hire a ton more inspectors..... the guys who ring your door bell and want to see your receipts or and other things that you use to justify your deductions... paper work will be amazing....
I am a collector and have no problems with reporting the 1099-K income but there is this hassle of keeping receipts from long ago, filling up the tax form for possibly a small loss and in my case paying my CPA (don't do it myself due to the nature of my taxes). Me and many collectors have almost no profits after all the fees and have to endure the additional hassle. It's just not worth the time or effort.
The above is copied from a previous comment but this is not a reply to that particular poster. I, too, do not like the hassles involved with record keeping and such, but maybe expanding these hassles to include even more people will help open their eyes to what a smaller segment of the society routinely has to deal with. It's a lot easier to ignore their existence when you are not personally affected by them. Rather than focusing on the hassles, perhaps some attention might be directed towards where the hassles originate in an effort to reduce them for everybody.
Now, lets assume Jack has been collecting coins for the last 50 years and obviously, bought some items way back and for very little money.
Now jack is 80 years old and wishes to sell his collection. AND is he hit now with a big bill?????
95 % of his purchases were for cash and he has NO receipts....
Also, what if he sells the whole collection as ONE lot?
Jack will not be a happy Camper......right? wrong???
Jack would have been hit anyway. (unless his 50 year collection was not worth much, but over $600).
But, this is the point of this. Not buying and selling on the side, but selling off years worth of accumulations. Hard to determine a value and this is a paperwork nightmare. The "paperwork" cost is tremendous. Wonder if you can write off your time?
This would only be a "real" issue if you got hit with an audit.
Makes a cash only yard sale much more attractive.
Do you think the IRS would accept my personal purchase logs, as prima facie evidence of what I paid for my coins?
I have always kept paper records of my purchases.
They don't ring every doorbell. If your 1099k isn't reported on your taxes, they simply send you a bill. Then you either just pay it or amend your return to include it.
Keep records, declare income, pay taxes. I like to keep it simple. Cheers, RickO
Yes.
Yes most likely.
And to @YQQ
Sure the IRS may have to hire more people, but that’s the point of the 1099k. W2’s 1099s etc allow for a computer to cross check income. W2 says 10,000 better have 10,000 listed as wages otherwise a letter gets automatically generated.
1099k same thing. Before you were on the honor system. Now if that 1099k doesn’t match other income reported somewhere on the return, out pops a letter. If you receive a letter and respond with the info request to contest, a real person May look at it. If you forgot to report and feel you owe the amount you mail a check.
Either way “Jack” was required by law to report already. The 1099k only keeps him honest. And arguably if “Jack” had any substantial collection or tax obligation he should contact a CPA or other tax professional to come up with a strategy to minimize tax legally.
My Ebay Store
My 1099k income for 2019 was reported on schedule D (sale of my capital asset coin/bullion investments) and their computer didn't see a match and out popped a CP2000 letter for $18k in owed taxes. Did the reply thing explaining my paypal payment processing was for capital assets and the income was reported on the D. Explanation denied, stating that merchant income should be on Schedule C. They failed to understand that my reply explained I was an investor, not a merchant. And yes, when I stated investing in such items I called the IRS to confirm I could use a Schedule D. Appears the IRS is incorrectly determining that 1099k income is strictly "merchant" sales income.
Called IRS and agent I spoke with (this is the second real person to look at my return) agreed that the income was reported on the return and that she would look further into it and attempt to make the problem go away. Awaiting correspondence telling me the outcome. If that fails, I will amend the return moving the sales to a Schedule C. Good thing I keep good records. For this reason I will no longer use D and will report all future income on C.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
On this board, you very recently referred to yourself as an "anarchist at heart". I'm just pointing out the absurdity of such a statement based on your comments here. Note that I haven't stated a position on the subject at hand one way or the other, but if you view me as a revolutionary in the abstract, I guess I'm honored to hold that place in your fantasy world.
Don't overlook the fact that under the tax law, filing Schedule C makes you a business. As a business, you are liable for the self-employment tax of 15.3% on your profits, as well as your income tax. When you are employed by someone else, you pay 7.65% and the employer pays 7.65% (yours is, of course, deducted automatically from your paycheck). Once you are self-employed, you pay the full 15.3% on your income (profits) from the business. If you are in the, say, 22% bracket on your taxable regular income, you will pay 22% + 15.3% = 37.3% on your business profits declared on Schedule C.
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Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
SE is the primary reason why I chose to be an investor instead of a retailer. Keep in mind that as an investor I was selling collectibles which face a higher tax rate. Hopefully, with the "C" my ability to claim more expense items will help offset some of the SE tax. And, hopefully any SE tax paid will increase my current $126 social security check. lol.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
I believe the IRS requires you to come to them in the event of an audit. And yes, your paperwork should be amazing.
Appears the IRS is moving more toward virtual auditing with things like the 1099K and are automatically spitting out letters for discrepancies rather than a full blown, live audit. I suspect they are now saving that as a feared weapon and as a last resort.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
Every time that I have had to deal with this issue, the letter was sufficient. Even when the person was using paypal for both business and personal use. But, as with your situation, I suppose it depends on who the person is, and whether or not they are a hard XXX. I suspect that this may be an issue that they will have to deal with moving forward because if you are not in business, you should not be filing Sch. C. And they need to make sure that they link both sch c and D to the income.
There is the option of e-filing a statement along with the original return, which may get a real person to look at it sooner, but that may not be a good thing.
But the IRS gets to decide whether or not you are in business and if they require the Sch C, you will be able to deduct more of the cost of doing business expenses.
My Ebay Store
An "anarchist at heart" is not a "rulebreaker in practice". I would say more, but there is no need to get unduly political. I believe in fairness. Some people paying taxes and some people not paying taxes on the same thing is neither anarchical nor socialist. It is simply unfair.
You are considering "anarchy" to be disordered. While that is sometimes the way it is portrayed, there are anarchists who believe that the social order arises between private individuals rather than dictated by the government. As such, it is not a state of social disorder where everyone just does whatever they wish.
I don't view you as anything. But if you think my anarchical bent requires me to embrace chaotic disregard for the current rules, then you must be insisting that I engage in revolution or I can't consider myself to be "an anarchist at heart".
I didn't vote, for example, for the current President. I don't like much of what he stands for and I question his competence. However, I still consider him to be the President and (until we are ready for the revolution) I expect that the existing laws be uniformly enforced and obeyed. I'm not sure why you don't understand that.
I also believe that, like communism, anarchy requires a more perfect citizenry than currently exists.
Your definition of "anarchy" differs from the more common usages and meanings. Most definitions include the notion of disorder, rebellion, violence, etc. Anarchism as a political theory is what you are referring to, but that is a difficult distinction when just saying anarchy or anarchist. Libertarianism much better fits your usage much better. Probably part of the confusion.
Concur
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Yes, that is a common definition, but not the only one.
See definition 2:
a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority or other controlling systems:
"he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
2.
the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.
Also see...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy#:~:text=As a political philosophy, anarchism advocates self-governed societies,the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, or harmful.
specifically: "In practical terms, anarchy can refer to the curtailment or abolition of traditional forms of government and institutions. It can also designate a nation or any inhabited place that has no system of government or central rule. Anarchy is primarily advocated by individual anarchists who propose replacing government with voluntary institutions. These true institutions or associations generally are modeled on nature since they can represent concepts such as community and economic self-reliance, interdependence, or individualism. Although anarchy is often negatively used as a synonym of chaos or societal collapse, this is not the meaning that anarchists attribute to anarchy, a society without hierarchies."
I used to consider myself Libertarian...then I got REALLY tired of the government.
Nonetheless, we do not have a Libertarian or Anarchical form of government. So, PAY YOUR DAMN TAXES
There really is no confusion. I didn't mention "anarchy" on this thread at all until @someonewhowillremainnameless decided to recall my prior assertion that I'm an "anarchist by nature" to somehow suggest that I should embrace tax avoidance as a result.
Google "definition of anarchy" and you get:
(1) a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority
(2) absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal
I guess maybe you are an anarchist when it comes to word definitions. As an aside, I'm glad you found "no need to get unduly political" before gracing us with your view on the current president.
You created the entire topic. It was about tax avoidance.
See my more expansive post on the broader understanding of the practical application of "anarchy" since you are clearly not the authority.
just wanted to see how small I could make the top post
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
And for anyone that thinks this is bad, many states are starting to require sales tax reporting beyond ONE in-state sale. I'm filing quarterly with my state even if I have 2-8 in-state transactions a year and no additional tax to pay.
I think several misunderstood my comment - I pay my taxes! But selling coins from my collection are coins that I paid tax on already. This is not a profit!! If you have a garage sale, do you claim that as earned income when you’re selling stuff that you already had purchased in the past? Of course not. I may sell 10k worth of coins / year but I also buy ~10k coins / year - yes I make some profit on a coin here and there but it’s mostly done as a hobby!!. I do not think I was cheating on taxes I did not say I profited 10k I said i sold 10k - BIG difference. I do it for fun and to trade with other collectors not to make a living - good grief we have some ‘attitude on this thread, don’t we??
So now I have to subtract the purchase price from my sale price and itemize that with the IRS? Maybe I made 10 dollars on a given coin after the math is all done. So, that’s my issue and the reason I will stop using eBay to buy and sell coins ...
You don't have to pay tax on your entire sale, just the profits. No profits, no taxes.
you paid sales tax when you bought your coins and when you sell them you have to pay income tax on any profit. This fact is as old as taxes are.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
I understand that but the 1099 will only list the amount SOLD. So this means I will need to have a lot of receipts and paperwork required to show that it wasn’t all profit, and I don’t need a 1099 to say I made 10k when I probably made little or nothing because it is just a hobby. Furthermore It will require another form to itemize this as well, so even the cost to file taxes will go up. I’ve gotten 1099s before they are not fun to deal with ... and let’s say I sell a 5k coin I inherited from my father - which is not taxable since I inherited it, so I shouldn’t have to pay taxes on that but a 1099 will list it as if I earned 5k ... it just makes it no longer fun.