Opinions? A PCGS solution to CAC
amwldcoin
Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
While it seems PCGS has backed off CAC being damaging to their credibility....I believe it does.
So is it time for PCGS to go to a decimal system or an AB or C descriptor of a grade? Seeing as how CAC says a coin isn't overgraded if it isn't CAC'd!
Of course the conspiracy side of me says PCGS is benefitting from CAC now since they are accepting them(even defending here through warnings) and created a platform for them in the form of CAC only registry sets.
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Yea…first CAC thread of 2022! Who guessed five days in😃
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
Live and let live... and if the association is beneficial, encourage it. Cheers, RickO
It's turned out well for PCGS. PCGS+CAC is the crème de la crème.
The PCGS solution to CAC is the PCGS+CAC Set Registry
It's like getting a second opinion for a health issue. You wouldn't go back to the same doctor for that opinion, would you? Kinda defeats the purpose...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
They don’t need a solution. PCGS is doing a fantastic, great job. The CAC registry I would think they doing for their customers not CAC.
PCGS is a TPG not some dealer somebody would go across bourse to c what that guy thinks. Lack of a CAC sticker does not say a coin is over graded lol. All the sticker means is CAC believes it’s an A or B coin in the grade range. C coins don’t get the sticker (JA podcast). Very few TPG coins been to CAC anyway. CAC only about 7 pct graded coins on the Bay last time I checked. CAC does not do major numismatic areas like currency, mods, world. So unless one’s a serious investor in big ticket US Classic Coins I really don’t consider CAC thing that big of a deal (for me) unless one wants spend extra for a second opinion. It’s basically irrelevant to a lot of stuff I do like quality currency and Mexico material.
Nothing needs to be changed PCGS does an outstanding job IMO. Their PCGS CF and inventory manager second to none. A change to a decimal system would be a disaster, disruptive, and idiotic. It would wreck the coin business and create havoc.
Possibly in the far future a worldwide grading system decimal based and self grading smart holder may develop assuming technology comes into play and costs to consumer reasonable, marketable say around $5 per holder. US classic coins only just one part of numismatics. Get a grip on the big picture not just one part.
Furthermore coins can go bad in the holder (reaction to the atmosphere) so the sticker thingy would be meaningless if that happens to a coin.
Solution: Learn how to grade and look at coins, become competent in your field, stay within a sane budget, and practice good risk mgt (risk level of spending for an individual coin).
I really get the honors!
Mine is of an entirely different nature that could provoke more thought into the matter!
That's basically why they have the + designation along with NGC. The issue isn't one of labels, it's of differing standards. What PCGS puts on the label won't matter much to someone who adheres to the slightly different standard of CAC or NGC. Same is true vice-versa.
I thought about that, but my experience with the + is the majority of the time it is more than just an A coin for the grade.
What do you mean by "more than just an A coin for the grade"?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Something along the lines of line up 10 A coins(top for the grade) and one might get a +.
I'm not really a fan of the green bean but do understand it. If they just had a gold then leave it alone, fwiw & jmo
The over-and-under was five hours.
The elephant needs a solution for the ant? Agree that PCGS does not need a(nother) solution. They are doing just fine and co-existing with CAC. CAC is doing just fine, too. Why create an elaborate solution for a problem that does not exist?
Why stop at ABC? This is about money. Go to the entire alphabet! There's money in those
letters!
The point is to get a SECOND opinion, not a more granular 1st opinion.
CAC has only strengthened PCGS market position over NGC, that isn't undercutting that is symbiotic
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Technically I created a CAC (Forum) thread here on January 3 but deleted it!
What? You couldn't wait for Heather to do it for you?
By the way, unless all PCGS + grades currently automatically CAC, your solution is not a solution.
I was thinking more like 2 hours and was expecting a “ringing in the New Year with CAC” thread.
How would this stop CAC from offering an opinion of the grade PCGS provides, which is what they're doing now?
The solution to CAC (if such is needed) is to not use their services.
Heather hasn’t been around much unfortunately.
I was going to start a contest with " Who is going to start a CAC thread first? " in 2022. But no need to now, as one is already started. "Didn't take long!" 🤣
I’m not sure that it was CAC as NGC alienated some of its customers with, among other things, the change to their registry program. PCGS coins have always sold for more than NGC coins. CAC just bifurcated the bifurcations such that it was now quadrifurcated. Fitting the previous pricing paradigm more or less predictably, many collectors adopted the pricing scheme of: PCGS CAC >> PCGS alone > NGC CAC >> NGC only.
I hope she has been enjoying the holidays!
Why isn't this PCGS CAC = NGC CAC >> PCGS alone > NGC alone? That's how I see it.
Hard to take a thread seriously when the first sentence is nonsense.
While it seems PCGS has backed off CAC being damaging to their credibility....I believe it does.
The people that ran the show at PCGS when cac first came knocking on the doors are no longer any part of the decision making and a new breed of top execs. are in place as things change and evolve in this industry.
I still would not recommend buying cac coins sight unseen. There are plenty unappealing, ugly, and just meh coins out there with a sticker. You should still decide for yourself if you want the coin in the holder or if you are just a sticker chaser.
Everything, CAC or no CAC, has a sight unseen price.
Is it too early in the year to have the annual debate on what "sight unseen" means?
Lol. Never too early. I mean literally no pictures.
It's an A+.
Is it too early in the year for me to drop in a related joke?
Q: What do you think about those new transparent coffins?
A: "Remains to be seen".
Plastic discrimination still exists. I don’t personally agree with it, but good luck selling NGC CAC coins for PCGS CAC money unless the PCGS:NGC spread is very narrow (usually generics/very common coins).
I think it depends on the series.
It’s pretty much the case for most 19th century material, all 18th century material, and remaining 19th and 20th century material in very choice/gem and above.
I’m sure there are exceptions (maybe generic saints where there is an unusually large premium for CAC that is further propped up by a price floor). Please also note I am not personally endorsing it. I’ll buy either service with or with out sticker or even raw.
I think it depends on the coin and the series, and there is a heck of alot of overlap between those 4 groups. I would certainly not put 'PCGS alone' > 'NGC CAC'. I have paid crazy multiples for coins in CACed NGC slabs and well worth it.......
Best, SH
I buy coins, not material, and for the coins I buy, there are only minimal differences between PCGS and NGC in the CAC and non-CAC groupings. See my above post.
Best, SH
Knowledgeable numismatists know when to buy raw or non pcgs, non cac and cross or submit to make top dollar for their time spent to actually learn as much as they can about their hobby (business).
Agreed
With all these price formulas that would likely underwhelm Einstein... there should be coin that factors into any equation in connection with evaluations/pricing and whether the coin is actually quality... it really fails to pass the straight face test otherwise. It's not the plastic that creates quality... plastic merely reflects a judgment at at point in time that may or may not recognize quality.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Yes, and date and mintmark and condition and rarity etc
Lookit, general statements just don't work.....generally.
….Very few TPG coins been to CAC anyway. CAC only about 7 pct graded coins on the Bay last time I checked. CAC does not do major numismatic areas like currency, mods, world.
Sure, when you look at the tens of millions of modern coins graded, I agree that those coins that have been to CAC is far from a majority. But the more important issue is “of graded coins eligible for a CAC, have most been to CAC?” I believe many of us can agree that a majority of lower priced coins (less than $500??????) have not been to CAC. With coins of higher values, a larger percentage have been to CAC. My personal sense is that when coins valued at $1,000 or more are for sale, a large majority of those have been inside CAC’s offices, whether by the seller, or by the auction house or dealer. Sure, there are plenty of exceptions, but sellers don’t like leaving money on the table.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Wow, I always knew + coins were special, but I never thought of it that way, but maybe you’re correct? So out of all of the coins in a particular grade, throw out the “C” coins and “B” coins, then line up the few “A” coins remaining for that date and grade. You’re then saying that roughly only one out of ten of those nicest few coins get the coveted “+”!
I guess that makes some of my sets even more special than even I had thought! My Classic Silver Commem 50 coin Type Set has 33 coins (66%) with a “+”.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/commemoratives/commemoratives-major-sets/silver-commemoratives-50-piece-type-set-circulation-strikes-1892-1954/publishedset/189058
Similar for my Dansco 7070. There are 69 coins in this set where the coin can potentially be graded with a “+” (coins graded 69 or 70 are ineligible to get a “+”). Of these 69 eligible for a “+”, 44 of my coins are graded with a “+” (63%).
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I won’t let your thoughts make my head get too big. While I’m very proud of my sets, and I think the number of coins in my sets with pluses is wonderful, I don’t think it’s quite as tough as you indicate. I’m most proud that the eye appeal of my coins is what I like best about my sets, even though most knowledgeable collectors prefer coins with a lot more toning than I like. @ricko and I stand with not too many others!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Don’t get too excited. I believe that view of + coins is in the the extreme minority.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
But if it makes you feel good... embrace the extreme minority.
Plus or no plus, those are some beautiful coins, Steve. A couple of my favorites from the @winesteven collection:
Thanks for your kind words. While the Liberty Seated Dime was purchased with the plus and a CAC (PR67+CAM), the Flying Eagle Cent was purchased with a CAC as a MS66. I liked it so much that I sent it in for reconsideration. Apparently PCGS agreed with me, as they added on the plus (take a peek at the difference in value). Also after purchase, Rick Snow added on his Eagle Eye Photo Seal.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I'm using AU59 for cabinet rub whether you like it or not!
I would say it's much easier to get a + on an MS coin. Perhaps I should have included that in my equation...even though my figure was hypothetical to use as an example. I'm an everyman and play with the 58's. I can assure you my hypothetical is closer to reality than you would think. Go look at the Commem pops and see how many 58+'s there are. I haven't looked but I bet it's very low. I also wish PCGS would change their definition of a + grade because it has absolutely not been my experience. Their definition is the top 30% for the grade with the statement of being exceptional.blah.blah.blah!